UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Patriot1066]

11 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Making things up again I see doesn't seem to bother some Brexiteers.

No I don’t lie ever please feel free to check their web site they are called ‘Vital Ingreedients’ is the name of the business. Lots are now not taking cash.

 

So please check them out on tinted web as you seem like a key board warrior (Sat at home with his mum) then you can apologise and retract your rather immature troll post!

[Patriot1066]

3 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The only call right now worth considering would be in terms of a Parliamentary vote in the event of Theresa May bringing an agreement to the House of Commons to vote on.

She won’t do it remain lost we won.

 

what do you think will happen if they try to reverse the referendum the political consequences don’t bare thinking about.

 

 

[vinny41]

RED RUINS 

Jeremy Corbyn would be TEN TIMES worse than Brexit for the British economy, experts warn

It comes as financial bigwigs revealed they are preparing to shift their investments out of Britain because they’re so scared of a Corbyn regime

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7428038/jeremy-corbyn-would-be-ten-times-worse-than-brexit-for-the-british-economy-experts-warn/

[SheungWan]

4 minutes ago, Patriot1066 said:

No I don’t lie ever please feel free to check their web site they are called ‘Vital Ingreedients’ is the name of the business. Lots are now not taking cash.

So please check them out on tinted web as you seem like a key board warrior (Sat at home with his mum) then you can apologise and retract your rather immature troll post!

Doubling down with the nonsense. Way to go.

[Patriot1066]

4 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Doubling down with the nonsense. Way to go.

No just correcting your nonsense !

[Patriot1066]

5 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

RED RUINS 

Jeremy Corbyn would be TEN TIMES worse than Brexit for the British economy, experts warn

It comes as financial bigwigs revealed they are preparing to shift their investments out of Britain because they’re so scared of a Corbyn regime

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7428038/jeremy-corbyn-would-be-ten-times-worse-than-brexit-for-the-british-economy-experts-warn/

Ah Corbin yes that would be bad. In the 1980s he was having tea with terrorists called the IRA whilst our towns and cities were being bomber by the terririst scum, now he does it with the PskestinianHamas and was recently on Iranian government TV.

 

 He hates the country and his heroes are either terrorists or South American dictators.

 

labour would wreck the country that has taken 10 years to put right since they last controlled it.

[SheungWan]

1 minute ago, Patriot1066 said:

Ah Corbin yes that would be bad. In the 1980s he was having tea with terrorists called the IRA whilst our towns and cities were being bomber by the terririst scum, now he does it with the PskestinianHamas and was recently on Iranian government TV.

 

 He hates the country and his heroes are either terrorists or South American dictators.

 

labour would wreck the country that has taken 10 years to put right since they last controlled it.

Left-wing Corbyn is pro-Brexit, like the extremists on the Right.

[vinny41]

3 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Left-wing Corbyn is pro-Brexit, like the extremists on the Right.

Here a good example of an extremist the only problem he on the loony left

https://order-order.com/2018/10/30/owen-jones-called-fascists-punished-death/

[Patriot1066]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Left-wing Corbyn is pro-Brexit, like the extremists on the Right.

Yes he is but most people supporting Brexit are not far left or far right.

 

They are Brexiteers actually, they are on the right though sorry you were correct. The RIGHT decision to get out of the undemocratic EU.

[Patriot1066]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Here a good example of an extremist the only problem he on the loony left

https://order-order.com/2018/10/30/owen-jones-called-fascists-punished-death/

Yes Owen Jones another big man hiding behind his key board.

 

How do the let get away with wanting people killed, shows their true intentions like STALIN

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The only call right now worth considering would be in terms of a Parliamentary vote in the event of Theresa May bringing an agreement to the House of Commons to vote on.

We're in the tunnel on this one. Nothing you or I can do about this. 

 

My feeling some agreement has been struck between EU, the Government, and Labour, as to how matters will proceed.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

Ah Corbin yes that would be bad. In the 1980s he was having tea with terrorists called the IRA whilst our towns and cities were being bomber by the terririst scum, now he does it with the PskestinianHamas and was recently on Iranian government TV.

 

 He hates the country and his heroes are either terrorists or South American dictators.

 

labour would wreck the country that has taken 10 years to put right since they last controlled it.

'labour would wreck the country that has taken 10 years to put right since they last controlled it.'

 

I rather think the bankers wrecked the economy? And it's hardly been put right has it?  Brexit hasn't helped much either.

 

The sooner a decent deal is done the better. 

 

The next election: battle of the unelectables really!  We could see the electorate vent its fury against the Tories quite easily.

 

 

 

[tebee]

Interesting musings :

 

The curious case of the unpopular Brexit Deal that *everyone* seems to think will happen. Why it will, why it might not, and, most importantly, why it shouldn’t.  It’s difficult to think of any of the Brexit tribes to whom the rumoured Brexit deal will positively appeal. Putting it differently, will anyone say, “Wow, that’s a really great deal.”. It’s greatest attribute is that it involves, well, leaving. That of course makes it unpalatable to Remainers although if that train hasn’t quite left the station, the doors are shut, the whistle blown, and the wheels are ‘a rolling.

It’s second greatest attribute is that it is, well, a deal. Aside from extreme Brexit enthusiasts, No Deal is a scenario of such biblical terribleness that anything that isn’t it is a half decent result. It’s third greatest attribute is that it involves a transition period, albeit one that is too short. Let’s savour for a moment the irony of a deal being good because it mandates a period of no change.

But does anyone think this Deal is going to be a good deal let alone a great deal?

Strike 1. It’s unlikely to provide any clear view about the post transition arrangement with the EU. This is unhelpful, to say the least, for anyone who has cause to be concerned about the future relationship (NB this includes all impacted businesses).

Strike 2. It will involve an Irish backstop. Depending on your view, that may or may not be a good thing, but the backstop condition will almost certainly be operative (see Strike 1, also, there’s not enough time) and that means either a ‘temporary’ customs union, (a concept generally loathed by Leavers) or an extension to transition, perpetuating the expedient but dissatisfactory combination of effective membership without representation.

Strike 3. There’s probably a majority out there for ‘just get on with it so we don’t have to talk about it anymore.’ But I have bad news. This Brexit is unclear, imprecise and unstable. We’re going to be talking about it for years and years to come.

Does the Deal represent the ‘will of the people’? Now I’m a will of the people sceptic but does anyone think that an indeterminate transition, no clue re future relationship, and possible *temporary* CU Brexit is remotely close to what people voted for? And yet, here is this not very good and quite possibly bad deal that many smart and thoughtful people think is going to happen. And they’re probably right. Why is that?

Despite the government’s shambolic ineptitude, none of the opposing forces have managed to come up with a plan that actually works.

The ERG’s plan falls over because of the backstop. The Boles EEA plan is failing because of ‘temporary’. The 2nd referendum plan has, so far, failed to generate enough public support. And as for Labour - let’s be generous and say there’s a direction rather than a plan.

This is a bit ironic (maybe sad, possibly tragic) because there are other plans that actually work. Michel Barnier has a whole diagram of them. You might not like them - Canada + backstop, Norway etc - but they do actually work.  And who’s to say that any of the actually workable alternatives are better or worse than the planned deal or more or less representative of the will of the people, or, god forbid, actually a good deal. We have never really had that debate. Instead, the apparently compelling argument for the Deal is that if parliament doesn’t vote for it then there’ll be No Deal, and, ironically, we now seem to be told by govt that quite apart from not being a walk in the park, No Deal would be a 1970s disaster movie type event.

Astonished that people are buying the argument that the only alternative to the Deal is No Deal. People argue there are no other deals available. But that’s simply not the case. They say there’s not enough time. But we have until March and there’s the possibility of A50 extension or even revocation. Apparently, the EU will not negotiate a different deal. Is that true? Yes and no. Will the EU negotiate a deal that involves compromising their red lines or worsening their position? No. Will they negotiate a different deal that’s consistent with their objectives? Yes.

Instead, we’re staring at the miserable alternative of a deal that no one seems to like. The govt position is no better than, ‘It’s the best that we could do.’ But, really, is it the best we can do? We can, and we must, do better.

[Patriot1066]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

'labour would wreck the country that has taken 10 years to put right since they last controlled it.'

 

I rather think the bankers wrecked the economy? And it's hardly been put right has it?  Brexit hasn't helped much either.

 

The sooner a decent deal is done the better. 

 

The next election: battle of the unelectables really!  We could see the electorate vent its fury against the Tories quite easily.

 

 

 

I can't really disagree with you on bankers, but they were allowed to do it.

 

Labour went on a massive spending spree with off the books expensive PFI deals. (Funded by the City) They started giving benefits out Willy hilly. They had some of the best tax revenue years and still left nothing in the bank!

 

0 the grumpy Scottish guy Brown further deregulated the banks and although Labour hated them they encouraged them actually.

 

But you really are right which one could you vote for it was probably like Trump or Clinton which do people hold their nose and tick the box.

 

I only know I couldn't vote Corbin or the gates would be well and truly open!

[Patriot1066]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

Interesting musings :

 

The curious case of the unpopular Brexit Deal that *everyone* seems to think will happen. Why it will, why it might not, and, most importantly, why it shouldn’t.  It’s difficult to think of any of the Brexit tribes to whom the rumoured Brexit deal will positively appeal. Putting it differently, will anyone say, “Wow, that’s a really great deal.”. It’s greatest attribute is that it involves, well, leaving. That of course makes it unpalatable to Remainers although if that train hasn’t quite left the station, the doors are shut, the whistle blown, and the wheels are ‘a rolling.

It’s second greatest attribute is that it is, well, a deal. Aside from extreme Brexit enthusiasts, No Deal is a scenario of such biblical terribleness that anything that isn’t it is a half decent result. It’s third greatest attribute is that it involves a transition period, albeit one that is too short. Let’s savour for a moment the irony of a deal being good because it mandates a period of no change.

But does anyone think this Deal is going to be a good deal let alone a great deal?

Strike 1. It’s unlikely to provide any clear view about the post transition arrangement with the EU. This is unhelpful, to say the least, for anyone who has cause to be concerned about the future relationship (NB this includes all impacted businesses).

Strike 2. It will involve an Irish backstop. Depending on your view, that may or may not be a good thing, but the backstop condition will almost certainly be operative (see Strike 1, also, there’s not enough time) and that means either a ‘temporary’ customs union, (a concept generally loathed by Leavers) or an extension to transition, perpetuating the expedient but dissatisfactory combination of effective membership without representation.

Strike 3. There’s probably a majority out there for ‘just get on with it so we don’t have to talk about it anymore.’ But I have bad news. This Brexit is unclear, imprecise and unstable. We’re going to be talking about it for years and years to come.

Does the Deal represent the ‘will of the people’? Now I’m a will of the people sceptic but does anyone think that an indeterminate transition, no clue re future relationship, and possible *temporary* CU Brexit is remotely close to what people voted for? And yet, here is this not very good and quite possibly bad deal that many smart and thoughtful people think is going to happen. And they’re probably right. Why is that?

Despite the government’s shambolic ineptitude, none of the opposing forces have managed to come up with a plan that actually works.

The ERG’s plan falls over because of the backstop. The Boles EEA plan is failing because of ‘temporary’. The 2nd referendum plan has, so far, failed to generate enough public support. And as for Labour - let’s be generous and say there’s a direction rather than a plan.

This is a bit ironic (maybe sad, possibly tragic) because there are other plans that actually work. Michel Barnier has a whole diagram of them. You might not like them - Canada + backstop, Norway etc - but they do actually work.  And who’s to say that any of the actually workable alternatives are better or worse than the planned deal or more or less representative of the will of the people, or, god forbid, actually a good deal. We have never really had that debate. Instead, the apparently compelling argument for the Deal is that if parliament doesn’t vote for it then there’ll be No Deal, and, ironically, we now seem to be told by govt that quite apart from not being a walk in the park, No Deal would be a 1970s disaster movie type event.

Astonished that people are buying the argument that the only alternative to the Deal is No Deal. People argue there are no other deals available. But that’s simply not the case. They say there’s not enough time. But we have until March and there’s the possibility of A50 extension or even revocation. Apparently, the EU will not negotiate a different deal. Is that true? Yes and no. Will the EU negotiate a deal that involves compromising their red lines or worsening their position? No. Will they negotiate a different deal that’s consistent with their objectives? Yes.

Instead, we’re staring at the miserable alternative of a deal that no one seems to like. The govt position is no better than, ‘It’s the best that we could do.’ But, really, is it the best we can do? We can, and we must, do better.

Yes a long post, the EU can not compromise their red lines May has miss understood that, the whole negotiating process has wasted time.

 

in reality we need to take tha Canada plus plus deal with some extra areas of co operation such as borders and financial services which they need in any case.

 

will article 50 be increased I doubt it as political suicide

[Patriot1066]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

We're in the tunnel on this one. Nothing you or I can do about this. 

 

My feeling some agreement has been struck between EU, the Government, and Labour, as to how matters will proceed.

Yes I think everything is stitched up they're just waiting to spill the beans it all looks very stage managed.

[tebee]

16 minutes ago, Patriot1066 said:

....

 

will article 50 be increased I doubt it as political suicide

Any move ( or none) is political suicide at the moment !

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, tebee said:

Any move ( or none) is political suicide at the moment !

The threat of a peasants revolt in the case of the government failing to deliver Brexit is just tripe.

[evadgib]

31 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The threat of a peasants revolt in the case of the government failing to deliver Brexit is just tripe.

Having seen how quickly and the numbers that turn up for the likes of Tommy Robinson HMG should tread very carefully indeed before trying any such caper.

[kwilco]

On 11/3/2018 at 5:41 AM, vinny41 said:

BREXIT OUTRAGE: France signs Ireland deal to leave UK lorries in Calais queue for HOURS

FRANCE has agreed to fast-track Irish lorries through Calais in a deal that could force British truckers to face gruelling queues lasting for hours.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1039926/brexit-news-france-calais-dublin-simon-coveney-Jean-Yves-Le-Drian-good-friday-agreement

 

Not Sure if the Irish and the French have thought about this but Republic of Ireland lorries unless they travel to Scotland need to access Dover via a English or Welsh ferry port and French Lorries travelling to the UK would need access to Dover

Normally when countries play these silly games it ends up TIT for TAT 

Irish trucksthe are in the EU and therefore don't require processing, so they will able to drive straight through.....just like UK trucks before Brexit.

[My Thai Life]

According to the BBC, today's Sunday Times

 

"claims it can reveal a "secret" Brexit plan between the PM and the EU. According to the paper - which says it has pieced together the plan from speaking to sources from both sides - Theresa May has "secured private concessions" from Europe. The paper says that under the deal the UK will be able to stay in the customs union, meaning no hard border in Ireland. Mrs May is also on course to striking an agreement allowing the UK to potentially still form a Canada-style trade deal, it adds. No deal has been yet announced."

 

Maybe May will be hailed as a political genius yet ????

Edited November 4, 2018 by My Thai Life

[tebee]

48 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The threat of a peasants revolt in the case of the government failing to deliver Brexit is just tripe.

What ever Brexit the government eventually delivers there will be a good proportion of the Brexiters unhappy (+ all the remainers )  - it's turned into a lose - lose situation vote wise.

 

The compromises being bandied around now seem particularly bad, probably crashing the economy without gaining any of the freedoms the brexiters wanted  - you suggestion of Norway  being where the equilibrium should lead us seem sensible - I just don't see evidence of sense being around at the moment. 

[My Thai Life]

1 minute ago, kwilco said:

Irish trucksthe are in the EU and therefore don't require processing, so they will able to drive straight through.....just like UK trucks before Brexit.

As far as I know the Common Travel Area covering the UK and Ireland doesn't cater for Irish trucks en route through the UK to France. I think that's probably what Vinny is getting at.

[My Thai Life]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

What ever Brexit the government eventually delivers there will be a good proportion of the Brexiters unhappy (+ all the remainers ) 

Given that we don't know what the deal will be I don't think either of these propositions is necessarily true. 

 

Decent remainers will be happy that democracy has prevailed, and I'm sure most leavers will be happy with the prospect of a Canada type deal as reported by The Sunday Times this morning and referenced by me a couple of posts above..

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

As far as I know the Common Travel Area covering the UK and Ireland doesn't cater for Irish trucks en route through the UK to France. I think that's probably what Vinny is getting at.

Common travel area has nothing to to with it - this is a customs problem.

 

They are proposing what is effectively a customs tunnel through the UK - an Irish truck traveling through the UK is sealed and presumed never to have left the customs union. 

 

[My Thai Life]

 

1 minute ago, tebee said:

Common travel area has nothing to to with it - this is a customs problem.

 

They are proposing what is effectively a customs tunnel through the UK - an Irish truck traveling through the UK is sealed and presumed never to have left the customs union. 

Would you care to elaborate who "they" is.

[tebee]

Just now, My Thai Life said:

Given that we don't know what the deal will be I don't think either of these propositions is necessarily true. 

 

Decent remainers will be happy that democracy has prevailed, and I'm sure most leavers will be happy with the prospect of a Canada type deal as reported by The Sunday Times this morning and referenced by me a couple of posts above..

There is no majority in Parliament or the country for any one type of Brexit - Canada will probably satisfy more than most but of course, doesn't solve the Irish problem.

[tebee]

Just now, My Thai Life said:

 

Would you care to elaborate who "they" is.

the EU and British governments 

[My Thai Life]

Just now, tebee said:

There is no majority in Parliament or the country for any one type of Brexit - Canada will probably satisfy more than most but of course, doesn't solve the Irish problem.

Several solutions have been proposed for the Irish "problem". You need to read more widely if you really wish to grasp the issues. 

[My Thai Life]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

the EU and British governments 

This has not been agreed. What you are saying is fake news. You get more like Trump by the day.

Edited November 4, 2018 by My Thai Life