UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[billd766]

2 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Why EU can't afford Italy leaving EU? 

 

Nobody wants the Syrian and specially the African economical refugees. As a rather rich continent, it's still fair for EU to help some of these people. Not all naturally.

 

There is a solution done with Turkey. Keep the refugees there. Another one will become perhaps in Northern Africa. 

 

EU wishes to avoid Italy to become much larger Creese. What's wrong with that? Italy has currently a populist government, which like all populist governments are so keen to spend money, without thinking tomorrow and long term plan.

 

If Italians are so stupid that they wish to follow these thugs, I'd say let them follow the thugs, but also pay the price which always comes when following the populist leaders. 

 

I'm also for letting all the anti-vaccine morons to live happily their own separate, isolated communities... and let them take care of their polio infected kids by themselves. I don't see a reason to be a samaritan, who needs to salvage people of themselves. It's far better to let evolution to take care of the problem. 

 

There is only a partial solution for the refugees in Turkey.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/1e9aeb34-0100-11e8-9650-9c0ad2d7c5b5

 

The FT won't let me copy the first 3 lines but basically it was said in the report that countries including Germany and the Netherlands want the EU to fund ALL of the €3 billion that it has cost and not been fully funded so far.

 

https://euobserver.com/migration/141322

 

The EU should pay €3 billion more to keep refugees in Turkey despite concerns about the Turkish regime, the European Commission has said.

It should also put "pressure" on African and Asian states to take back their unwanted nationals from the EU, it added.

 

Erdogan crackdown casts shadow on EU relations (Photo: Flickr)

The €3 billion is to be funded with €1 billion from the EU budget and the rest from member states, as in the previous €3 billion tranche, which ended in 2017.

 

The EU cannot pay its bills yet voraciously wants MORE funding.

 

The EU is like socialism. They love to spend other peoples money but have nothing when the money tree dies.

 

Countries like Germany and the Netherlands don't want to contribute more money to throw in the black hole of EU spending plus the UK contribution will soon cease.

 

Then what will the EU do?

[JAG]

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

As I suspected - you can't answer. - QED

 

I notice too you don't understand synonyms either

 

it is typically this kind of lack of education (did you ever go to secondary school?) that has allowed the far-right to push forward the erroneous concept of Brexit upon the lumpen masses, who have swallowed it like a hungry puppy.

It would seem that the result is as suggested in the OP - a second referendum is needed.

Not the ideal solution but a step in the right direction.

Rather than let a CABAL dictate to the masses, I would consider a general election ( the norm for UK democracy) to be the answer. This cuts out the damages to some extent, allowing MPs, politicians, academics and other individuals throughout the country to put their views on a more focused basis.

 

Would a Brexiteer have the nous to comprehend this?

 

Umh, didn't we have a General Election not very long after the referendum? Didn't the parties which campaigned to reverse the referendum result, and remain in the EU fail to win enough seats to do so? Perhaps that is why we have a government (and a majority opposition party) which are committed to implementing the referendum decision. 

 

Do you have the "nous" (sic) to" comprehend this"?

 

I ask as a member of the "lumpen masses", although it would be something of a stretch to liken me to a "hungry puppy"!

Edited November 5, 2018 by JAG

[mommysboy]

54 minutes ago, rixalex said:

As has been commented on before and as is evidenced in the hate speech above, most of the aggressive, abusive and judgemental behaviour does seem to come from the leave camp, which is strange as they are the ones supposedly arguing in favour of liberal values, unity and accord, and they are the ones throwing around accusations of far right extremism, ignorance and poor education.

Their attitude does though seem to accurately reflect that of their beloved EU. Step out of line or dare to sing from a different hymn sheet and watch as the liberalism mask slips to reveal something a whole lot more sinister.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

Both as bad as each other in respect of the subject at hand.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

Perhaps because it cannot afford to do so. Perhaps because Italy will shut completely their borders and refuse to accept immigrants, and possibly expel the hundreds of thousands that are already there over the borders to EU la la land.

 

If all the EU states play nicely and do as they are told the EU sort of works. But if member states refuse to accept the EU rules then there are big problems for the commission. What then can the commissioners do?

 

Italy refuses to accept that the EU should decide on the Italian budget, Poland refuses to accept an EU ruling about who decides judges retirement age, Germany does not want to pay more into the EU budget when the UK leaves.

 

That is one reason why the Commissioners are bearing down hard on the UK. They cannot understand why we won't play their game any more.

this emi/imi-asylym-refugee problem area has been handled badly by eu me thinks

just look at the enormous burden italy and greece have had to carry

unfair me thinks

 

[Guest]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

this emi/imi-asylym-refugee problem area has been handled badly by eu me thinks

just look at the enormous burden italy and greece have had to carry

unfair me thinks

 

One of the reasons to go for further integration of EU member states is to be more effectively deal with the borders and immigration challenges. 

 

There is a need for a good mix of both leftists and right side ideologies. The balance is in the middle. 

 

EU had a stupidly liberal stance for immigration few years back. This caused a lot of unhappiness in the member states, each of them. This was also the reason why the rightwingers, with help from outside, gained so much traction.

 

However the EU policy has already gotten a lot more strict, which is good. To see the effects always takes some time. 

 

Once UK is out of the picture, it's time to start real EU reforms. Streamlining how we as whole react to the people outside of the EU being one of the priorities.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

Perhaps because it cannot afford to do so. Perhaps because Italy will shut completely their borders and refuse to accept immigrants, and possibly expel the hundreds of thousands that are already there over the borders to EU la la land.

 

If all the EU states play nicely and do as they are told the EU sort of works. But if member states refuse to accept the EU rules then there are big problems for the commission. What then can the commissioners do?

 

Italy refuses to accept that the EU should decide on the Italian budget, Poland refuses to accept an EU ruling about who decides judges retirement age, Germany does not want to pay more into the EU budget when the UK leaves.

 

That is one reason why the Commissioners are bearing down hard on the UK. They cannot understand why we won't play their game any more.

 

These factors are fine examples of why the EU is destined for disintegration, IMO. Target-2 issues / sovereign-federal debt scandal and - consequently - the looming collapse of the Euro as a currency will be, I'd imagine, what precipitates the initial breakdown. Exactly when it will come is hard to say. The commission / the ECB will do all that they can to keep the Euro alive and kick this problem down the road a little longer, more QE, more debt and more mess to be paid - ad futurae. When the whole project starts to unravel and the inevitable collateral damage starts, we may view Brexit with very different eyes.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[melvinmelvin]

having followed a bunch of Brexit threads over the past couple of years I

think I see a pic of

 

remainers preaching doomsday and end is nigh 'cause of Brexit

while

leavers preach Brexit 'cause EU is doomed anyway

 

Bob Dylan had a few variants of the theme can't win 'em all

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

3 hours ago, kwilco said:

As I suspected - you can't answer. - QED

 

I notice too you don't understand synonyms either

 

it is typically this kind of lack of education (did you ever go to secondary school?) that has allowed the far-right to push forward the erroneous concept of Brexit upon the lumpen masses, who have swallowed it like a hungry puppy.

It would seem that the result is as suggested in the OP - a second referendum is needed.

Not the ideal solution but a step in the right direction.

Rather than let a CABAL dictate to the masses, I would consider a general election ( the norm for UK democracy) to be the answer. This cuts out the damages to some extent, allowing MPs, politicians, academics and other individuals throughout the country to put their views on a more focused basis.

 

Would a Brexiteer have the nous to comprehend this?

 

Umh, didn't we have a General Election not very long after the referendum? Didn't the parties which campaigned to reverse the referendum result, and remain in the EU fail to win enough seats to do so? Perhaps that is why we have a government (and a majority opposition party) which are committed to implementing the referendum decision. 

 

Do you have the "nous" (sic) to" comprehend this"?

 

I ask as a member of the "lumpen masses", although it would be something of a stretch to liken me to a "hungry puppy"!

 

Hey now, you can't use logic, reason or fact in your arguments, that's not fair! Certainly not with someone as blinkered and vehemently Remoan as Kwilco. I notice you don't stoop to his level by responding with similarly bellicose statements, derived from ignorance. Fair play to you.

 

As a number of us have said, it is a hallmark of elements of the 'left' and evidently of much of the Remain camp, to make curt, condescending remarks or throw flat out insults at their opposition to deflect from the inanity of their non-arguments or their EU shill status. Especially in the context of the referendum and 'the great unwashed' who voted Leave, it is quite stupendously hypocritical.

 

To call it exasperating is an understatement. 

Edited November 5, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

Hey now, you can't use logic, reason or fact in your arguments, that's not fair! Certainly not with someone as blinkered and vehemently Remoan as Kwilco. I notice you don't stoop to his level by responding with similarly bellicose statements, derived from ignorance. Fair play to you.

 

As a number of us have said, it is a hallmark of the loony left and evidently of much of the Remain camp, to make curt, condescending remarks or throw flat out insults at their opposition to deflect from the inanity of their non-arguments or their EU shill status. Especially in the context of the referendum and 'the great unwashed' who voted Leave, it is quite stupendously hypocritical.

 

To call it exasperating is an understatement. 

Stop whining if you are doing the exactly same and actually worse yourself. Nobody like people who whine constantly, even if it's a national hobby.

 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

One of the reasons to go for further integration of EU member states is to be more effectively deal with the borders and immigration challenges. 

 

There is a need for a good mix of both leftists and right side ideologies. The balance is in the middle. 

 

EU had a stupidly liberal stance for immigration few years back. This caused a lot of unhappiness in the member states, each of them. This was also the reason why the rightwingers, with help from outside, gained so much traction.

 

However the EU policy has already gotten a lot more strict, which is good. To see the effects always takes some time. 

 

Once UK is out of the picture, it's time to start real EU reforms. Streamlining how we as whole react to the people outside of the EU being one of the priorities.

Do you truly think that the EU will reform?

 

They haven't reformed since they started many years ago and they won't now.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

20 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Stop whining if you are doing the exactly same and actually worse yourself. Nobody like people who whine constantly, even if it's a national hobby.

 

 

It's called a criticism - if someone is being incredibly condescending (repeatedly) they should be called out on it. Especially when the forum is designed for debate, trying to up the level of that debate is important.

Is it, perhaps, because you agree with the criticised poster's views and want to perpetuate them, that you're really on the offensive?

 

If you really hate whining then I'd imagine you'd appreciate the Leave camp's rhetoric far more. The majority of factual, balanced argument having come from this side. Leave won, so what do I have to moan about, short of a betrayal of the nation's wishes?

 

...I always thought of Sauna as your 'national hobby'? ????

 

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Do you truly think that the EU will reform?

 

They haven't reformed since they started many years ago and they won't now.

I think EU will reform as it's now shown absolutely necessary that EU must reform itself.

 

Streamlining border issues. Realistic talk about the future. Ending some idiotic practises etc.

 

EU will probably include few more smallish countries in coming years and then the expansion halts. Now it's time to stabilise the EU's internal structure. 

 

I really think that UK leaving the union is good for the EU's future. Once one big member, which was half in, half out, is fully out, it probably helps to get better understanding about the future. Nobody likes to be in "It's complicated" relationship for too long. That stops both sides to become free to do what they want.

 

Btw. EU is not they. It's us. Even you are still part of the EU ????

 

[melvinmelvin]

good stuff

the end of curved bananas and straight cucumbers

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

If you really hate whining then I'd imagine you'd appreciate the Leave camp's rhetoric far more. The majority of factual, balanced argument having come from this side. Leave won, so what do I have to moan about, short of a betrayal of the nation's wishes?

Whining, inability to take responsibilities of one's own actions and blaming others from one's own mistakes go often hand in hand. 

 

Me versus They

Us versus Them immigrant who both doesn't work and steal our jobs

Our government versus Their EU parliament....

 

Some people are just tuned into shifting the blame to others. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

good stuff

the end of curved bananas and straight cucumbers

 

Priorities, priorities!

[nontabury]

18 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

 

That actually made me smile...

 

 

 

Some people's votes were encouraged by the fact that they thought that would happen!

Same as those rumors that the E.U intended to create anE.U. Army.

Rubbish said the E.U. At the time. NOW however the E.U admit plans are well advanced.

it makes you wonder, who are the gullible.

[nontabury]

18 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Brexit means Brexit!!!

Let’s hope so,as that is the Democratic wish of the British people.

[rixalex]

 
Both as bad as each other in respect of the subject at hand.

In terms of the content of this thread, there is one side way ahead in terms of ad hominem attacks, and I think you know that. Maybe your desire to stay somewhat non-partisan in the debate prevents you from saying so.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[billd766]

9 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I think EU will reform as it's now shown absolutely necessary that EU must reform itself.

 

Streamlining border issues. Realistic talk about the future. Ending some idiotic practises etc.

 

EU will probably include few more smallish countries in coming years and then the expansion halts. Now it's time to stabilise the EU's internal structure. 

 

I really think that UK leaving the union is good for the EU's future. Once one big member, which was half in, half out, is fully out, it probably helps to get better understanding about the future. Nobody likes to be in "It's complicated" relationship for too long. That stops both sides to become free to do what they want.

 

Btw. EU is not they. It's us. Even you are still part of the EU ????

 

The EU is 28 separate states held together with threats and sticky tape.

 

The EU has had decades to reform and it has not done so yet. 

 

One of the most wasteful things that the EU does and it must cost billions of Euros every year is moving from Brussels to Strasbourg and back twice a year. So you have 2 centres open 24/7, two sets of multiple office locations, in fact 2 sets of most things. THAT has been running from the start of the EU and even before.

 

Have they ever reformed even that one single thing?

 

YOU may have left your roots in Finland behind to become a EU citizen but I am still British and will never be a EU citizen.

 

I don't care what is written in my passport, it is what is written in my heart that matters to me.

 

quote from your post. "EU will probably include few more smallish countries in coming years and then the expansion halts."

 

Now tell the truth and explain with quotes and links etc just who they are and how they will be funded?

 

Germany and the Netherlands have refused to pay more into the coffers, the UK contribution will be lost and all these new smallish countries will be lining up to get money from the EU. They will be non contributors.

 

Will Finland, Belgium, France, Hungary, Poland etc put up an extra €30 billion Euros or more, every year to support them? Already Germany and the Netherlands have refused to pay more into the coffers.

 

If you believe that then there is no hope for you.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

27 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Whining, inability to take responsibilities of one's own actions and blaming others from one's own mistakes go often hand in hand. 

 

I don't disagree with you at all, here.

 

27 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Me versus They

Us versus Them immigrant who both doesn't work and steal our jobs

Our government versus Their EU parliament....

I do, however, think this is a popular, but gross oversimplification of the reasons behind many of the Leave voters' desire to Brexit, and in some respects just incorrect. It is a statement that is bandied about by people, especially within the UK, who believe themselves to be intellectually and morally superior to the philistines who voted out of the EU. It's clear from their rhetoric and the way they deliver it, some fine examples of which exist on this very thread. To simply dismiss the genuine and legitimate concerns that underpinned the Leave vote is very closed-minded and ill-informed. Debate is good and proper, the best way to settle any dispute. I wish there was more of it.

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[bkk_mike]

31 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

good stuff

the end of curved bananas and straight cucumbers

 

The whole straight cucumber thing was requested by the supermarkets.

 

Because you can fit more straight cucumbers in a tray, and therefore more in a pallet, and therefore more in a truck - when shipping it from one country in Europe to another.

 

The Brexit vote was essentially stupid.

You had 3 possible options...

1. The Status Quo.

2. Something better than the Status Quo.

3. Something worse than the Status Quo.

 

The EU will never in a million years give us a deal as a non-member that is better than being in the EU. It said that from the outset. It's not a surprise that that's turning out to be the case. That meant the Brexit vote was a vote between the Status Quo (Remain), and something unspecified that was worse (Leave).

 

It could have been a less bad deal, but we decided to come out and say we're leaving the single market and the Customs Union (which is what turned the Irish border into the issue that it is). After all it's Britain and Ireland that signed the Belfast Treaty (Good Friday agreement), but Britain is choosing to do stuff that requires it to be ripped up. (Leaving the Customs Union means there has to be Customs checks under WTO rules, and leaving the Single Market means that Ireland and Northern Ireland will have different rules for immigration that means people who will have the automatic right to enter Ireland (like non-EU spouses of nationals from other EU countries), but will no longer have the right to enter the UK. Meaning you also need immigration checks.

 

You also have to wonder if Spain may decide to emulate the UK's ripping up of the Belfast treaty by ripping up the Utrecht Treaty - the one that gave Gibraltar to the crown, if, apparently, choosing to unilaterally rip up International treaties where Britain is one of the signatories is now an acceptable thing to do?

Edited November 5, 2018 by bkk_mike

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, oilinki said:

Why EU can't afford Italy leaving EU? 

 

Nobody wants the Syrian and specially the African economical refugees. As a rather rich continent, it's still fair for EU to help some of these people. Not all naturally.

 

There is a solution done with Turkey. Keep the refugees there. Another one will become perhaps in Northern Africa. 

 

EU wishes to avoid Italy to become much larger Creese. What's wrong with that? Italy has currently a populist government, which like all populist governments are so keen to spend money, without thinking tomorrow and long term plan.

 

If Italians are so stupid that they wish to follow these thugs, I'd say let them follow the thugs, but also pay the price which always comes when following the populist leaders. 

 

I'm also for letting all the anti-vaccine morons to live happily their own separate, isolated communities... and let them take care of their polio infected kids by themselves. I don't see a reason to be a samaritan, who needs to salvage people of themselves. It's far better to let evolution to take care of the problem. 

The Italians have been dealing with a growing migration problem out of N. Africa for at least 15 years!! Previous Italian governments have failed to stop this organised but rather overt people smuggling (which is what most of this migration really is).

 

Recently Merkel and the EU have used the Syrian crisis to accelerate this flow into Italy, as well as Greece and more recently Spain. To facilitate the arrival of economic migrants into the Mediterranean countries now serves to actually decrease the chances for genuine refugees to find safety.

 

But the Italians have had enough and support a stop to mass migration - that's why they voted in their present government - but you call them stupid, in your stupid post! 

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

Quoted from oilinki's posts:

 

'If Italians are so stupid that they wish to follow these thugs, I'd say let them follow the thugs, but also pay the price which always comes when following the populist leaders.'

 

'I'm also for letting all the anti-vaccine morons to live happily their own separate, isolated communities... and let them take care of their polio infected kids by themselves. I don't see a reason to be a samaritan, who needs to salvage people of themselves. It's far better to let evolution to take care of the problem. '

 

Ah, more of that altruistic, egalitarian spirit that the EU is supposedly notorious famous for. You should apply to become the next President of the Commission, you'd be a shoe-in!

 

'There is a solution done with Turkey. Keep the refugees there. Another one will become perhaps in Northern Africa.'

 

If so it will be about 15 years too late. ????

Edited November 5, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, bkk_mike said:

The whole straight cucumber thing was requested by the supermarkets.

 

Because you can fit more straight cucumbers in a tray, and therefore more in a pallet, and therefore more in a truck - when shipping it from one country in Europe to another.

 

The Brexit vote was essentially stupid.

You had 3 possible options...

1. The Status Quo.

2. Something better than the Status Quo.

3. Something worse than the Status Quo.

 

The EU will never in a million years give us a deal as a non-member that is better than being in the EU. It said that from the outset. It's not a surprise that that's turning out to be the case. That meant the Brexit vote was a vote between the Status Quo (Remain), and something unspecified that was worse (Leave).

 

It could have been a less bad deal, but we decided to come out and say we're leaving the single market and the Customs Union (which is what turned the Irish border into the issue that it is). After all it's Britain and Ireland that signed the Belfast Treaty (Good Friday agreement), but Britain is choosing to do stuff that requires it to be ripped up. (Leaving the Customs Union means there has to be Customs checks under WTO rules, and leaving the Single Market means that Ireland and Northern Ireland will have different rules for immigration that means people who will have the automatic right to enter Ireland (like non-EU spouses of nationals from other EU countries), but will no longer have the right to enter the UK. Meaning you also need immigration checks.

 

You also have to wonder if Spain may decide to emulate the UK's ripping up of the Belfast treaty by ripping up the Utrecht Treaty - the one that gave Gibraltar to the crown, if, apparently, choosing to unilaterally rip up International treaties where Britain is one of the signatories is now an acceptable thing to do?

Another opinion, which ignores the real reason for the vote, ignores what the majority want, again uses the "stupid" word, assumes that leaving will be worse than remaining and finally, adds a touch of Project Fear. Scary.

 

 

  

[Cadbury]

15 minutes ago, billd766 said:

The EU is 28 separate states held together with threats and sticky tape.

 

The EU has had decades to reform and it has not done so yet. 

 

One of the most wasteful things that the EU does and it must cost billions of Euros every year is moving from Brussels to Strasbourg and back twice a year. So you have 2 centres open 24/7, two sets of multiple office locations, in fact 2 sets of most things. THAT has been running from the start of the EU and even before.

 

Have they ever reformed even that one single thing?

 

YOU may have left your roots in Finland behind to become a EU citizen but I am still British and will never be a EU citizen.

 

I don't care what is written in my passport, it is what is written in my heart that matters to me.

 

quote from your post. "EU will probably include few more smallish countries in coming years and then the expansion halts."

 

Now tell the truth and explain with quotes and links etc just who they are and how they will be funded?

 

Germany and the Netherlands have refused to pay more into the coffers, the UK contribution will be lost and all these new smallish countries will be lining up to get money from the EU. They will be non contributors.

 

Will Finland, Belgium, France, Hungary, Poland etc put up an extra €30 billion Euros or more, every year to support them? Already Germany and the Netherlands have refused to pay more into the coffers.

 

If you believe that then there is no hope for you.

This may have been posted in this link before but I can't go through 472 pages to find out. I post this speech by Michael Farage without comment as it speaks for itself.

 

 

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

 

Ah, more of that altruistic, egalitarian spirit that the EU is supposedly notorious famous for. You should apply to become the next President of the Commission, you'd be a shoe-in!

 

 

If so it will be about 15 years too late. ????

Be careful with you quoting please, I didn't say any of that crap.  

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Be careful with you quoting please, I didn't say any of that crap.  

TVF has clearly become infected by Russian spy/malware!!!

 

Either that or Oilinki is a black-hat hacker? ????

Edited November 5, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Be careful with you quoting please, I didn't say any of that crap.  

Not funny - you have my name on Linki's rubbish.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Not funny - you have my name on Linki's rubbish.

 

I'll sort it out.

Edited November 5, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Not funny - you have my name on Linki's rubbish.

Corrected. Apologies Nauseus.