UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Patriot1066]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Hangover?

Hangover?

[mommysboy]

12 minutes ago, Patriot1066 said:

Yes I agree with some of his stuff but could never vote for him either.

I guess the very real problem in English politics is that there isn't a credible political party that represents far right viewpoints such as yours. Thus, the far right becomes a reactionary cohort sitting within the Tory party.

 

You could try the Democratic Football Lads Alliance.  And, actually, the way British politics is going, I might well join you.

[Jip99]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

I guess the very real problem in English politics is that there isn't a credible political party that represents far right viewpoints such as yours. Thus, the far right becomes a reactionary cohort sitting within the Tory party.

 

You could try the Democratic Football Lads Alliance.  And, actually, the way British politics is going, I might well join you.

 

 

I think they should scrap party politics and and all politicians stand as "independents".

[Patriot1066]

6 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I guess the very real problem in English politics is that there isn't a credible political party that represents far right viewpoints such as yours. Thus, the far right becomes a reactionary cohort sitting within the Tory party.

 

You could try the Democratic Football Lads Alliance.  And, actually, the way British politics is going, I might well join you.

FPA is very democratic just turn up and support. Like the EDL marches.

 

Viewpoints considered as far right were once mainstream in the U.K. The mainstream parties created the far right as an insult, so they could silence debate on things like globalization and immigration.

 

Here is something historical from the far left communist dockers union strikes in the late 60s. They have always been far left but few left through mechanization and containers.

 

https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2009/02/12/we-were-saying-—-1968-when-london-dockers-struck-work-and-marched-tory-racist-enoch

 

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

A remain tory who wants another referendum that includes the option to remain ????.  Hardly an earth-shattering suprise!

You still think you are in some kind of majority?

[Jip99]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

You still think you are in some kind of majority?

 

 

The evidence confirms that.

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

The evidence confirms that.

To which evidence do you refer?

 

"Paul Samuelson, the Nobel laureate from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, recalled that John Maynard Keynes once was challenged for altering his position on some economic issue. “When my information changes,” he remembered that Keynes had said, “I change my mind. What do you do?”

Edited November 10, 2018 by Grouse

[Jip99]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

To which evidence do you refer? 

 

 

The majority vote on 23 June 2016.

 

 

The result that successive prime ministers have said would be honoured.

[adammike]

3 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Given that the Irish border is currently the key issue, some people here may be interested to hear what David Campbell Bannerman, conservative trade spokesman in the European Parliament, and one of the key people in the early GFA suggested 2 days ago in The Telegraph. I've made it a lengthyish quote because The Telegraph is behind a paywall, and it's such a key topic to those of us actally interested in information about Brexit.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/08/can-bin-backstop-finally-have-big-brexit-breakthrough/

 

"Perhaps what is the newest addition would be to spell out exactly how the UK, in particular, would avoid a hard border, and to do so in this legal international treaty format backed by the ICJ. SPS (sanitary or phytosanitary) checks on animal health/plants would continue as now, but be conducted away from the physical border, and the all-island Common Biosecurity Zone would be maintained - with a veterinary agreement that limits the necessary checks to 40 per cent, not 100 per cent (up from 10 percent now). Customs declarations, or country of origin certificate and product compliance checks (the EU talks now of "market checks") shall be conducted away from the physical border and be predominantly done electronically, using schemes such as Trusted Trader and Authorised Economic Operators. Other checks including VAT, tax, excise, currencies (GBP/EUR) and security shall again be conducted away from the physical land border, as now, with VAT accounting continuing to record trade with EU Member States. Other border issues such as the Single Electricity Market (SEM) for the island of Ireland (Northern Ireland and ROI) shall be maintained; and rail services too, jointly run with NI Railways and Iarnród Éireann."

How's that gonna work with people? there will have to be checks on those trains on both sides of the border and possibly passport checks on flights and ferries to and from the Island of Ireland.You see I thought brexit was about "control of our borders" etc and WTO rules demand border controls.

[My Thai Life]

12 minutes ago, adammike said:

How's that gonna work with people? there will have to be checks on those trains on both sides of the border and possibly passport checks on flights and ferries to and from the Island of Ireland.You see I thought brexit was about "control of our borders" etc and WTO rules demand border controls.

People are unaffected,  just as they have been since the Common Travel Area was created around 1923.

 

The WTO does not require a hard border, but customs controls will be necessary of course.  We already have controls operating for UK-Irish trade. Extending these without a hard border post-Brexit is considered by many to not be an issue. But May has allowed this to be turned into a key issue, for reasons best known to her. I have answered the main questions regarding the Irish border fairly extensively over the last couple of months. The links and quotes that I have posted should answer all your questions.

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Read my headline, ie, Tories tottering.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of tory MPs supported remain?

 

So why are you suprised that MPs are "tottering" - looking for any excuse to 'totter' on the subject?

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

I think they should scrap party politics and and all politicians stand as "independents".

Know what you mean, and it's a great idea.

 

Unfortunately, probably not practical as the bickering would probably be even worse?

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

FPA is very democratic just turn up and support. Like the EDL marches.

 

Viewpoints considered as far right were once mainstream in the U.K. The mainstream parties created the far right as an insult, so they could silence debate on things like globalization and immigration.

 

Here is something historical from the far left communist dockers union strikes in the late 60s. They have always been far left but few left through mechanization and containers.

 

https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2009/02/12/we-were-saying-—-1968-when-london-dockers-struck-work-and-marched-tory-racist-enoch

 

 

"The mainstream parties created the far right as an insult, so they could silence debate on things like globalization and immigration."

 

The same has happened to "far left"....

 

Nowadays anyone with a different point of view is labelled right/left (depending on the posters' POV) or, in the case of oilinki - 'a russian troll' ????.  I wouldn't mind, but frequently I agree with the points raised in the post - but then they include a right wing/left wing/socialist label in the post which negates all the good points raised.

 

I shouldn't laugh, as these labels seriously annoy me!

 

PLEASE, PLEASE, give up on the automatic 'labels'

 

Having said this, I agree with your comment "the mainstream parties created the far right as an insult, so they could silence debate on things like globalization and immigration."

Edited November 10, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[mommysboy]

38 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of tory MPs supported remain?

 

So why are you suprised that MPs are "tottering" - looking for any excuse to 'totter' on the subject?

I am making the point that this weak Government could fall quite easily now.

 

I'm not sure how long the Conservative/DUP Coalition Government can go on.

Edited November 10, 2018 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

Ronald rocking but not rolling.

 

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/226071It

[Patriot1066]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

You still think you are in some kind of majority?

Yep

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, Patriot1066 said:

Yep

What for Brexit? or no deal Brexit?

[Jack100]

The pound in your pocket is not worth any less -seem to have heard that before somewhere !

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

The majority vote on 23 June 2016.

 

 

The result that successive prime ministers have said would be honoured.

1) Your parliament is sovereign; it can do what it damn well likes, when it damn well likes, regardless of what anyone said previously

 

2) If you look at the wording of the act, parliament did not bind themselves. That is why they didn't specify a super majority. It was to guage opinion only.

 

3) A majority of those who voted were in favour of leaving but that was not a majority of the electorate

 

4) Democracy can not be undermined by more democracy

 

5) People are free to change their opinion

 

IMO, members of parliament should vote down any so called deal that leaves the country in a worse economic position than the status quo ante. They should then have THEIR decision ratified by referendum.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Grouse

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of tory MPs supported remain?

 

So why are you suprised that MPs are "tottering" - looking for any excuse to 'totter' on the subject?

They are required to vote according to what they personally believe to be in the best interests of their constituents and the country

 

I think we established long ago that remain was corrolated with a good educational standard? Are you surprised, therefore, that MPs tend toward remain?

 

What IS surprising is that so many MPs are too cowardly to do the right thing or don't understand their role properly.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Ronald rocking but not rolling.

 

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/226071It

Looks like a new referendum by a factor of 10!

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

Yep

Then you should try and get out a little more.

[dick dasterdly]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

They are required to vote according to what they personally believe to be in the best interests of their constituents and the country

 

I think we established long ago that remain was corrolated with a good educational standard? Are you surprised, therefore, that MPs tend toward remain?

 

What IS surprising is that so many MPs are too cowardly to do the right thing or don't understand their role properly.

So why did they vote to enact article 50?

 

As you admitted on another thread, MPs are only interested in their own 'seats' - and yet for some obscure reason you still trust them implicitly to make the best decisions for their country and constituents ????!

 

"I think we established long ago that remain was corrolated with a good educational standard? Are you surprised, therefore, that MPs tend toward remain?"

 

"WE" (unless you mean remainers?) did nothing of the sort.... That was your and remainers version of biased statements in the biased media ????.

Edited November 10, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

So why did they vote to enact article 50?

 

As you admitted on another thread, MPs are only interested in their own 'seats' - and yet for some obscure reason you still trust them implicitly to make the best decisions for their country and constituents ????!

 

"I think we established long ago that remain was corrolated with a good educational standard? Are you surprised, therefore, that MPs tend toward remain?"

 

"WE" did nothing of the sort.... That was your version of biased statements in the media....

I thought I explained my opinion of spineless (or ignorant) MPs. They should do the right thing and vote according to their conscience 

 

As far as the corrolation is concerned, the evidence from the statistics is compelling. Furthermore, you surely can not contest that my point is born out in practice! Watch the TV, listen to the Radio, read quality press, contribute to TV. Brighter people (excluding the cynical bastards) tend toward remain.....But you know that!

[mogandave]

I thought I explained my opinion of spineless (or ignorant) MPs. They should do the right thing and vote according to their conscience 
 
As far as the corrolation is concerned, the evidence from the statistics is compelling. Furthermore, you surely can not contest that my point is born out in practice! Watch the TV, listen to the Radio, read quality press, contribute to TV. Brighter people (excluding the cynical bastards) tend toward remain.....But you know that!

What do they all have in common?

[dick dasterdly]

12 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I thought I explained my opinion of spineless (or ignorant) MPs. They should do the right thing and vote according to their conscience 

 

As far as the corrolation is concerned, the evidence from the statistics is compelling. Furthermore, you surely can not contest that my point is born out in practice! Watch the TV, listen to the Radio, read quality press, contribute to TV. Brighter people (excluding the cynical bastards) tend toward remain.....But you know that!

I'm happy to accept that most of the the wealthiest percentage of the electorate are more likely to have voted remain, but this is human nature.

 

Must admit that I did enjoy your comment "Brighter people (excluding the cynical bastards) tend toward remain...", as I've no doubt most 'brighter people' are as selfish as most others/know little as anyone else about the eu, and only care about themselves.  The bit I enjoyed was "excluding the cynical bastards", as I'll be the first to admit that I'm a "cynical bastard"! ????

 

I'm still at a loss as to why anyone that admits that MPs are only interested in their own 'seats' - still trusts them implicitly to make the right choices for their country and constituents??

Edited November 10, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[mogandave]

So would you rather get your news from a press that’s cynical or gullible?

[melvinmelvin]

19 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm still at a loss as to why anyone that admits that MPs are only interested in their own 'seats' - still trusts them implicitly to make the right choices for their country and constituents??

 

 

what would their other options be?

 

[Grouse]

39 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

What do they all have in common?

 

I would hope wisdom and altruism

 

But I suspect stupidity and greed

 

We only have ourselves to blame

[Grouse]

14 minutes ago, mogandave said:

So would you rather get your news from a press that’s cynical or gullible?

Cynical