UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[damascase]

I see many references to ‘back to WTO-rules’. However, can we be sure that the UK will have been granted membership upon leaving the EU? If not, WTO Members can throw any tariffs they like on importation from the UK, they are not bound by the tariff commitments they made vs. other WTO Members.

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, nontabury said:

Labour did want to introduce a national ID system, in an attempt to stop benefits abuse, unfortunately the Conservatives were against the idea. Now why would that be?

  

Timeline: ID cards indicates labour not completely in favour of id cards

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10164331

[vinny41]

14 minutes ago, damascase said:

I see many references to ‘back to WTO-rules’. However, can we be sure that the UK will have been granted membership upon leaving the EU? If not, WTO Members can throw any tariffs they like on importation from the UK, they are not bound by the tariff commitments they made vs. other WTO Members.

According to the WTO the UK has held membership since 1995

This page gathers information on the United Kingdom's participation in the WTO. The United Kingdom has been a WTO member since 1 January 1995 and  a member of GATT since 1 January 1948

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/united_kingdom_e.htm

 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, damascase said:

It looks like EFTA and EEA are being mixed up. Being an EFTA Member does not make you automatically an EEA partner. E.g. Switzerland is part of EFTA, but is not in the EEA. For joining EFTA, the agreement of the other EFTA Members is required,  while participation in the EEA also needs the EU to accept/agree. And don’t think that EFTA Membership leaves you completely free to negotiate FTA’s - Free Trade Agreements - with the rest of the world, as the UK would then be bound by the many trade agreements already concluded by EFTA. A further detail: in general these EFTA FTA’s are formulated very much in line with the current EU FTA’s.........

I was talking about Norway plus; the plus being CU.

 

I could just about live with that but Remain would be much better

[transam]

21 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Solid Labour. The Conservative candidate was 1000-1 at the last election.

Admirable but Labour Party became New Labour where  the 

MP's were all earning bundles to chat at a town hall they didn't want to go too..

 

Dare I mention Red Ken...A prime example o a Labour.. ????

 

The New Labour party is much the same as the Cons, take care of their own..

 

Why was JC voted in, they needed an odd ball to stir things up to show they wee different but "they" are enjoying their benefits...

[tebee]

13 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Odd, isn't it, that those who can denounce Tories for being cynical and opportunist, will take the opportunity of admiring the same in Jeremy Corbyn.

Let me make it clear that while  I like neither TM or JC and detest both their politics, I do have to grudgingly admire their political skills.

 

TM comes over as a particularly small minded nasty stupid person with no empathy for her fellow human beings. JC might be a better person, but he's living in the world as it was 40 years ago and can't change or stomach criticism. He is always right in his view. 

 

But they are both quite good at being politicians. TM has risen to the top of the scum  and managed to fight off all challenges. She might even be able to get this terrible deal passed even though most people oppose it.

 

JC has taken control of the famously fractious Labour party  and invokes cult like devotion amongst his followers.

 

Neither of them are good people though - but they seem to be the sort of person our political systems hands power too. Maybe that is the problem. 

[damascase]

11 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

According to the WTO the UK has held membership since 1995

This page gathers information on the United Kingdom's participation in the WTO. The United Kingdom has been a WTO member since 1 January 1995 and  a member of GATT since 1 January 1948

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/united_kingdom_e.htm

 

Thanks, I wasn’t aware that the EU Member States had retained their individual membership.

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Financially, TM's deal is almost as bad as leaving with no deal !

 

 

I assume the reason why you don't post a  link is that you don't want members to know the full story Here the link from your snapshot

https://www.ft.com/content/4551e932-f185-11e8-9623-d7f9881e729f

How many groups that produced this report received funding from the European Research Council or is that something else you don't want forum members to know

[tebee]

5 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I assume the reason why you don't post a  link is that you don't want members to know the full story Here the link from your snapshot

https://www.ft.com/content/4551e932-f185-11e8-9623-d7f9881e729f

How many groups that produced this report received funding from the European Research Council or is that something else you don't want forum members to know

No I didn't give the link as I found the image on Twitter and stole it from there.

 

Having looked at the link now we find the Study was funded by the UK government.

 

    Undertaken by a consortium of academics and think-tanks, from King’s College London, the Centre for Economic Performance and the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the study was funded by the government’s Economic and Social Research Council, an independent body that awards research grants to academics.
 

[vinny41]

parliament cannot force a 2nd referendum

https://order-order.com/2018/11/27/experts-parliament-cant-force-second-referendum/?

[Caledonia Boy]

Thought I'd share Mike Harding's reply to the May begging letter.

Dear Mrs May
I am in France having a break having come here on the train all the way from Settle. I just read your letter to me and the rest of Britain wanting us all to unite behind the damp squib you call a deal. Unite? I laughed so much the mouthful of frogs legs I was eating ended up dancing all over the bald head of the bloke on the opposite table.
Your party’s little civil war has divided this country irreparably. The last time this happened Cromwell discontinued the custom of kings wearing their heads on their shoulders.
I had a mother who was of Irish descent, an English father who lies in a Dutch graveyard in the village where his Lancaster bomber fell in flames. I had a Polish stepfather who drove a tank for us in WW2 and I have two half Polish sisters and a half Polish brother who is married to a girl from Donegal.
My two uncles of Irish descent fought for Britain in N Africa and in Burma.
So far you have called us Citizens Of Nowhere and Queue Jumpers. You have now taken away our children and grandchildren’s freedom to travel, settle, live and work in mainland Europe.
You have made this country a vicious and much diminished place. You as Home Sec sent a van round telling foreigners to go home. You said “ illegal” but that was lies as the legally here people of the Windrush generation soon discovered.
Your party has sold off our railways, water, electricity, gas, telecoms, Royal Mail etc until all we have left is the NHS and that is lined up for the US to have as soon as Hannon and Hunt can arrange it
You have lied to the people of this country. You voted Remain yet changed your tune when the chance to grab the job of PM came. You should have sacked those lying toadies Gove and Bojo but daren’t because you haven’t the actual power.
You have no answer to the British border on the island of Ireland nor do you know how the Gib border with Spain will work once we are out
Mrs May you have helped to divide this country to such an extent that families and friends are now no longer talking to each other, you have managed to negotiate a deal far worse than the one we had and all to keep together a party of millionaires, Eton Bullingdon boys, spivs and WI harridans. Your party conserves nothing. It has sold everything off in the name of the free market.
You could have kept our industries going with investment and development – Germany managed it. But no – The Free Market won so Sunderland, Barnsley, Hamilton etc could all go to the devil
So Mrs May my answer to your plea for unity is firstly that it is ridiculous.
48% of us will never forgive you for Brexit and secondly, of the 52% that voted for it many will not forgive you for not giving them what your lying comrades like Rees Mogg and Fox promised them.
There are no unicorns, there is no £350 million extra for the NHS. The economy will tank and there will be less taxes to help out the poor. We have 350,000 homeless (not rough sleepers – homeless) in one of the richest countries on Earth and you are about to increase that number with your damn fool Brexit.
The bald man has wiped the frogs legs of his head, I’ve bought him a glass of wine to say sorry; I’m typing this with one finger on my phone in France and I’m tired now and want to stop before my finger gets too tired to join the other one in a sailors salute to you and your squalid Brexit, your shabby xenophobia and Little Englander mentality.
Two fingers to you and your unity from this proud citizen of nowhere. I and roughly half the country will never forgive you or your party.
Mike Harding

[dunroaming]

In fairness to Theresa May, she has nowhere to go with all this.  She was stupid to take on the role of PM when all the Brexiteer campaigners were running for the hills but most MP's aspire to be PM one day and this was probably the only chance she would ever get.  Many would have fallen on their sword by now or at least have been honest enough to say that Brexit, as first promised, was impossible to deliver.  At least then we wouldn't be in the mess we are in. 

 

As it is she applied the blinkers, put on the headphones and carried on with the same flawed script, not listening to the growing dissent from all around her.  That came to a head when she spoke in the house and was hammered from all sides, but still she refuses to listen to sense.  She has backed herself into a corner and there is no positive way out of it.

[tebee]

23 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

According to the WTO the UK has held membership since 1995

This page gathers information on the United Kingdom's participation in the WTO. The United Kingdom has been a WTO member since 1 January 1995 and  a member of GATT since 1 January 1948

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/united_kingdom_e.htm

 

 

We are still a member of the WTO - the problem being that we don't have a currently agreed schedule of tariffs.

 

This is not a problem for imports as we can announce and apply whatever tariffs we want, those they might be challenged by others.

 

The problem is for exports - it's hard to sell things to other countries when you are unsure of the tariffs that will be applied by that country on arrival.

 

[vinny41]

7 minutes ago, tebee said:

No I didn't give the link as I found the image on Twitter and stole it from there.

 

Having looked at the link now we find the Study was funded by the UK government.

 

    Undertaken by a consortium of academics and think-tanks, from King’s College London, the Centre for Economic Performance and the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the study was funded by the government’s Economic and Social Research Council, an independent body that awards research grants to academics.
 

a search on the internet produces  hundreds of links  for economic and social research council eu funding

[tebee]

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

a search on the internet produces  hundreds of links  for economic and social research council eu funding

The Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC) is one of the seven Research Councils in the United Kingdom. It receives most of its funding from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, and provides funding and support for research and training work in the social sciences and economics, such as postgraduate degrees.

[tebee]

13 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

parliament cannot force a 2nd referendum

https://order-order.com/2018/11/27/experts-parliament-cant-force-second-referendum/?

Parliament can do whatever it wants - it is the supreme power in the UK

[tebee]

 

[vinny41]

13 minutes ago, Caledonia Boy said:

Thought I'd share Mike Harding's reply to the May begging letter.

Dear Mrs May
I am in France having a break having come here on the train all the way from Settle. I just read your letter to me and the rest of Britain wanting us all to unite behind the damp squib you call a deal. Unite? I laughed so much the mouthful of frogs legs I was eating ended up dancing all over the bald head of the bloke on the opposite table.
Your party’s little civil war has divided this country irreparably. The last time this happened Cromwell discontinued the custom of kings wearing their heads on their shoulders.
I had a mother who was of Irish descent, an English father who lies in a Dutch graveyard in the village where his Lancaster bomber fell in flames. I had a Polish stepfather who drove a tank for us in WW2 and I have two half Polish sisters and a half Polish brother who is married to a girl from Donegal.
My two uncles of Irish descent fought for Britain in N Africa and in Burma.
So far you have called us Citizens Of Nowhere and Queue Jumpers. You have now taken away our children and grandchildren’s freedom to travel, settle, live and work in mainland Europe.
You have made this country a vicious and much diminished place. You as Home Sec sent a van round telling foreigners to go home. You said “ illegal” but that was lies as the legally here people of the Windrush generation soon discovered.
Your party has sold off our railways, water, electricity, gas, telecoms, Royal Mail etc until all we have left is the NHS and that is lined up for the US to have as soon as Hannon and Hunt can arrange it
You have lied to the people of this country. You voted Remain yet changed your tune when the chance to grab the job of PM came. You should have sacked those lying toadies Gove and Bojo but daren’t because you haven’t the actual power.
You have no answer to the British border on the island of Ireland nor do you know how the Gib border with Spain will work once we are out
Mrs May you have helped to divide this country to such an extent that families and friends are now no longer talking to each other, you have managed to negotiate a deal far worse than the one we had and all to keep together a party of millionaires, Eton Bullingdon boys, spivs and WI harridans. Your party conserves nothing. It has sold everything off in the name of the free market.
You could have kept our industries going with investment and development – Germany managed it. But no – The Free Market won so Sunderland, Barnsley, Hamilton etc could all go to the devil
So Mrs May my answer to your plea for unity is firstly that it is ridiculous.
48% of us will never forgive you for Brexit and secondly, of the 52% that voted for it many will not forgive you for not giving them what your lying comrades like Rees Mogg and Fox promised them.
There are no unicorns, there is no £350 million extra for the NHS. The economy will tank and there will be less taxes to help out the poor. We have 350,000 homeless (not rough sleepers – homeless) in one of the richest countries on Earth and you are about to increase that number with your damn fool Brexit.
The bald man has wiped the frogs legs of his head, I’ve bought him a glass of wine to say sorry; I’m typing this with one finger on my phone in France and I’m tired now and want to stop before my finger gets too tired to join the other one in a sailors salute to you and your squalid Brexit, your shabby xenophobia and Little Englander mentality.
Two fingers to you and your unity from this proud citizen of nowhere. I and roughly half the country will never forgive you or your party.
Mike Harding

For anyone that isn't a Liberal Lefty Luvvies Mike Harding is

Stand up comic / folk singer / poet / playwright / internet radio presenter and male stripper

https://twitter.com/HardingMike

[vinny41]

9 minutes ago, tebee said:

Parliament can do whatever it wants - it is the supreme power in the UK

Well the experts disagree with you , I notice you post snapshots from twitter from "experts" are they wrong as well

[bomber]

11 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

 

We are still a member of the WTO - the problem being that we don't have a currently agreed schedule of tariffs.

 

This is not a problem for imports as we can announce and apply whatever tariffs we want, those they might be challenged by others.

 

The problem is for exports - it's hard to sell things to other countries when you are unsure of the tariffs that will be applied by that country on arrival.

 

so who decides what the tariff is? will it be 2% or 60%,also its only 4 month away importers wont know until the day the goods enter,its too late in the day to go down this route,nobody has listened to importers and exporters,a blind man on a galloping horse can see it.the opportunity has passed,snooze and you lose,well the UK was in a coma for 2+ years,but all the the leave voters can come up with is the deal is no good,ive yet to hear anybody state exactly what it is they fear.

[dunroaming]

8 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

For anyone that isn't a Liberal Lefty Luvvies Mike Harding is

Stand up comic / folk singer / poet / playwright / internet radio presenter and male stripper

https://twitter.com/HardingMike

Brilliant written piece by My Harding although I would take issue with him blaming May for dividing the country.  Surely that should be put at Cameron's door for granting the referendum.  She picked up the poisoned chalice and I am sure she now wishes she hadn't.  The rest of letter I agree with completely and I am not, in any way a "Liberal Lefty".

[tebee]

2 minutes ago, bomber said:

so who decides what the tariff is? will it be 2% or 60%,also its only 4 month away importers wont know until the day the goods enter,its too late in the day to go down this route,nobody has listened to importers and exporters,a blind man on a galloping horse can see it.the opportunity has passed,snooze and you lose,well the UK was in a coma for 2+ years,but all the the leave voters can come up with is the deal is no good, i've yet to hear anybody state exactly what it is they fear.

This is the problem - it won't be known beforehand, it will be down to the whim of the customs officer who deals with it. It will probably be the default tariff for that goods I.E. the highest possible tariff  without discounts agreed by trade deals.

[adammike]

8 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Would that be the Labour Party membership which is overwhelmingly anti-Brexit or Corbyn the pro-Brexit leader who is doing the thinking?

I was taking the piss out of the post complaining that a political party was being political.specifically the PARLIAMENTARY party,politics is what they do after all.It does seem JC is out of step with the members and the country as a whole (according to a piece in the independent every constituency in the country has a majority for a new referendum so I guess that will rule one out.It's a cluster f#=k and its all down to the Tories and the brexiteers, you own it.

[bomber]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

This is the problem - it won't be known beforehand, it will be down to the whim of the customs officer who deals with it. It will probably be the default tariff for that goods I.E. the highest possible tariff  without discounts agreed by trade deals.

sounds like it will be organised chaos,so lets say toyota are importing parts from CZ/poland/Slovakia which we know they do for their derby factory,they wont have a clue what tariff will be imposed if anything at all,a truck/van could sail through one day and get clobbered the next no wonder they have been pulling their teeth out,you cannot run a huge operation like that in this way,deal or no deal they wont be staying in the UK for much longer thats for sure.I would pack my bags and go,much cheaper labour with less hassle and without a channel to cross in central/eastern europe.

[vogie]

51 minutes ago, Caledonia Boy said:

Thought I'd share Mike Harding's reply to the May begging letter.

Dear Mrs May
I am in France having a break having come here on the train all the way from Settle. I just read your letter to me and the rest of Britain wanting us all to unite behind the damp squib you call a deal. Unite? I laughed so much the mouthful of frogs legs I was eating ended up dancing all over the bald head of the bloke on the opposite table.
Your party’s little civil war has divided this country irreparably. The last time this happened Cromwell discontinued the custom of kings wearing their heads on their shoulders.
I had a mother who was of Irish descent, an English father who lies in a Dutch graveyard in the village where his Lancaster bomber fell in flames. I had a Polish stepfather who drove a tank for us in WW2 and I have two half Polish sisters and a half Polish brother who is married to a girl from Donegal.
My two uncles of Irish descent fought for Britain in N Africa and in Burma.
So far you have called us Citizens Of Nowhere and Queue Jumpers. You have now taken away our children and grandchildren’s freedom to travel, settle, live and work in mainland Europe.
You have made this country a vicious and much diminished place. You as Home Sec sent a van round telling foreigners to go home. You said “ illegal” but that was lies as the legally here people of the Windrush generation soon discovered.
Your party has sold off our railways, water, electricity, gas, telecoms, Royal Mail etc until all we have left is the NHS and that is lined up for the US to have as soon as Hannon and Hunt can arrange it
You have lied to the people of this country. You voted Remain yet changed your tune when the chance to grab the job of PM came. You should have sacked those lying toadies Gove and Bojo but daren’t because you haven’t the actual power.
You have no answer to the British border on the island of Ireland nor do you know how the Gib border with Spain will work once we are out
Mrs May you have helped to divide this country to such an extent that families and friends are now no longer talking to each other, you have managed to negotiate a deal far worse than the one we had and all to keep together a party of millionaires, Eton Bullingdon boys, spivs and WI harridans. Your party conserves nothing. It has sold everything off in the name of the free market.
You could have kept our industries going with investment and development – Germany managed it. But no – The Free Market won so Sunderland, Barnsley, Hamilton etc could all go to the devil
So Mrs May my answer to your plea for unity is firstly that it is ridiculous.
48% of us will never forgive you for Brexit and secondly, of the 52% that voted for it many will not forgive you for not giving them what your lying comrades like Rees Mogg and Fox promised them.
There are no unicorns, there is no £350 million extra for the NHS. The economy will tank and there will be less taxes to help out the poor. We have 350,000 homeless (not rough sleepers – homeless) in one of the richest countries on Earth and you are about to increase that number with your damn fool Brexit.
The bald man has wiped the frogs legs of his head, I’ve bought him a glass of wine to say sorry; I’m typing this with one finger on my phone in France and I’m tired now and want to stop before my finger gets too tired to join the other one in a sailors salute to you and your squalid Brexit, your shabby xenophobia and Little Englander mentality.
Two fingers to you and your unity from this proud citizen of nowhere. I and roughly half the country will never forgive you or your party.
Mike Harding

Ah the Rochdale Cowboy, I remember when he lived up the Yorkshire Dales, he wasn't too bothered about peoples jobs then. Jobs are very few and far between in the dales, but Mike Harden tried to get the limestone quarry shut down in Kilnsey because he thought it was a blot on the landscape, he wasn't bothered about people then was he, more about himself, now where have I heard that before.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, damascase said:

Thanks, I wasn’t aware that the EU Member States had retained their individual membership.

When the EU became a WTO member in its own right member states retained their membership but the tariff schedules were deleted. All EU member states trade on the EU schedule.

On the 24th July the UK applied to the WTO to adopt the EU schedule so tariff levels are already known. If I remember right WTO members had until the 24th of October to raise objections and I gather some have been raised and are under consideration.

It is possible for a WTO member to trade on a schedule that has not been agreed, but likely to cause dispute.

[damascase]

40 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

For anyone that isn't a Liberal Lefty Luvvies Mike Harding is

Stand up comic / folk singer / poet / playwright / internet radio presenter and male stripper

https://twitter.com/HardingMike

And why is that relevant? Only because his opinion differs from yours? Again, this is shooting at the messenger - most probably without listening to the message..........

[dunroaming]

7 minutes ago, damascase said:

And why is that relevant? Only because his opinion differs from yours? Again, this is shooting at the messenger - most probably without listening to the message..........

I don't think it was shooting the messenger although it does illustrate how people feel they have to slot people into political boxes as some bizarre form of defence.

Edited November 27, 2018 by dunroaming

[dunroaming]

So May has challenged Corbyn to a live debate on her deal, claiming she has a plan and he hasn't.  Should be interesting if he accepts. 

[vinny41]

13 minutes ago, damascase said:

And why is that relevant? Only because his opinion differs from yours? Again, this is shooting at the messenger - most probably without listening to the message..........

Voter Backlash against Media UKIP Smears Is Good For Democracy

One of the saddest things I have seen on the interweb of Sheeple for a long time was a post yesterday from a comedian who did very well in the 70s and 80s by presenting himself as a working class hero and man of the people. Even though Mike Harding is from a considerably poorer part of Manchester than the one I was born in, and grew up in the Lowryesque streets of Crumpsall where my family moved to green and pleasant Shropshire, in his comedy and music gigs Harding talked about shared experiences of 1950s childhood and sixties adolescence especially the agonies of adolescence because we moved back to Manchester when I was fourteen.

One would think then that somebody like Mike Harding would understand the attitudes of the working class. But no, like so many working class heros he has sold out the the politically correct luvvieocracy of the media and showbiz. There he was on his facebook page, assuming his faded celebrity gave him some kind of authority to tell people what to think, sneering at a UKIP candidate for expressing the view that working class people are sick of the media banging on about homosexuals rights and what a bigoted lot of buggers the masses are, when actually what the working class want politicians and the medias to talk about are things like jobs, immigration, the cost of living, immigration and jobs in that order.

 

And of course the media and politicians just take a patronising, paternalistic stance: “those things are to complicated for you oiks to be bothering your bigoted little heads with,” they say (well I’m papaphrasing.

Well I live in east Lancashire and I can tell Mike Harding that the opinion expressed by the UKIPper he is sneering at, that dislike of ‘the homosexual community’ is a view that has held sway for a long times and continues to do so.

Good to see then that voters have flicked a very big V sign to Mike Harding and the other media luvvies and in response to the smear campoaign UKIP’s poll rating has risen.

Wealthy, superior luvvies might not be able to think for themselves but the working class voters obviously can.

 

from The Guardian:
The medias failure to neutralise Ukip can only be good for democracy

The intrusive power of the media, their capacity to lay waste the lives of ordinary people and celebrities alike, has been much aired, before and after Leveson. But there is another form of power, exercised with far greater discretion. This is the ability of the media to shape and to limit discussion; a capacity which has in recent weeks become conspicuously transparent, thanks to their efforts to discredit Ukip in general, and Nigel Farage in particular.

The dominant political parties and the mainstream media collusively concerted the attack on Ukip. Never has the management of what is somewhat hyperbolically called the clash of ideas, conducted by the opinion-formers and gatekeepers of debate, been so clear. Rarely have the tactics to maintain argument within acceptable bounds been more obvious.

I particularly liked this line from the article:

“It may be considered something of an irony that, since all the main parties are, in one way or another, conservative parties, an even more conservative party should be the object of such vilification; and this can be ascribed only to the desire to maintain a monopoly of representation by Conservatives, Labour and Liberal Democrats.”

https://originalboggartblog.wordpress.com/2014/05/09/voter-backlash-against-media-ukip-smears-is-good-for-democracy-18416650/