UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[mommysboy]

6 hours ago, Grouse said:

I read all of your contributions carefully and with great respect even though you are misguided!

 

I still do not see ANY tangible benefits.

 

Right now we are a full member of the biggest trading club in the world at modest cost. Sure we share some "sovereignty" just as we do by being a member of NATO. I don't see us being a vassal state; we could and should be one the most influential leaders.

 

I am comforted by EU minimum standards across many areas. I certainly don't trust our own governments.

 

So, whereas there are many aspects of the EU that need fixing, in all, it is better to stay and force change from within. The obvious negotiating stance now is to opt out from total free movement due to population density. Also we should negotiate a throttle on immigration from other EU states to say one per ten thousand of a country's population per annum.

 

Jumping overboard just shows signs of synaptic disadvantage IMO.

We could and should have just stayed in, and just done our own sweet thing imo.  It's really difficult to take action against a large nation like the UK.  And some states would have backed our disobedience too. 

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, oilinki said:

After Brexit: UK trying to hold on to foreign companies, which earlier setup their offices to UK due easy access to the EU internal markets, easy language access and steady political environment. 

 

Meanwhile the rest of the EU is saying: Please come and setup your offices and manufacturing units to our countries. We are part of the greatest market in the world.

 

 

Methinks you protest too much.  The reality is that EU will have a hungry, and liberal competitor right on its doorstep, looking to undercut at every turn. The average Brit would be relegated to second world status I think, but the country would thrive after a few years.  I guess that would be a win win for the ardent Brexiteers on this forum?

Edited August 28, 2018 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Is this the ‘Sovereignty of the British Parliament’ Brexiteers harp on about:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/28/no-deal-brexit-no-10-refuses-to-say-mps-will-see-full-impact-analysis

Well yes.  It's about par for the course. Personally, if I have to have totalitarianism then I would prefer it left wing.  

 

Thinking about it, I'm more opposed to this truly crappy government than I am to Brexit.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-uk-post-brexit-trade-deal-africa-visit-cape-town-leave-eu-a8510761.html

 

And while we're about it, if this is the shape of things to come, God help us all: it's just like for like.  How is that better then?

Edited August 28, 2018 by mommysboy

[tebee]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Well yes.  It's about par for the course. Personally, if I have to have totalitarianism then I would prefer it left wing.  

 

Thinking about it, I'm more opposed to this truly crappy government than I am to Brexit.

.....

You're in good company 

 

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-story-of-how-the-conservatives-crippled-the-country/03/08/

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

You're in good company 

 

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-story-of-how-the-conservatives-crippled-the-country/03/08/

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Posted 1 hour ago

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Well yes.  It's about par for the course. Personally, if I have to have totalitarianism then I would prefer it left wing.  

 

Thinking about it, I'm more opposed to this truly crappy government than I am to Brexit.

.....

You're in good company 

 

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-story-of-how-the-conservatives-crippled-the-country/03/08/

 

if it weren't for your crappy government you probably would not have Brexit today

 

 

 

 

 

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Methinks you protest too much.  The reality is that EU will have a hungry, and liberal competitor right on its doorstep, looking to undercut at every turn. The average Brit would be relegated to second world status I think, but the country would thrive after a few years.  I guess that would be a win win for the ardent Brexiteers on this forum?

Yes, I agree

[melvinmelvin]

BREXIT BUILT ON LIES

 

The view that Brexit has been built on lies has been expressed quite a few times in this thread.

 

 

I came across this, a possible explanation a to why;

 

THE 10 COMMANDMENTS IN UK 
  
The real reason that we can't have the Ten Commandments posted in a courthouse 
or Parliament, is this -
 
You cannot post 'Thou Shalt Not Steal', 'Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery' and 
'Thou Shall Not Lie' in a building full of lawyers, judges and politicians 
..... It creates a hostile work environment. 
 

Edited August 29, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[mfd101]

8 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Methinks you protest too much.  The reality is that EU will have a hungry, and liberal competitor right on its doorstep, looking to undercut at every turn. The average Brit would be relegated to second world status I think, but the country would thrive after a few years.  I guess that would be a win win for the ardent Brexiteers on this forum?

So the country will "thrive" by making 9/10 Brits considerably poorer longterm.

 

Great outcome. Shows real good forward thinking, clever management. In a word: strategic. I'm impressed.

[Jip99]

3 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

So the country will "thrive" by making 9/10 Brits considerably poorer longterm.

 

Great outcome. Shows real good forward thinking, clever management. In a word: strategic. I'm impressed.

 

 

Naagh!  You are too materialistic in your views.

 

Just think how rich you will be in your heart, knowing that the UK is no longer controlled by the EU.

 

I will sacrifice a few Baht for that.

[Srikcir]

48 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

THE 10 COMMANDMENTS IN UK

Hundreds of churches across Britain are now preaching an updated version of the Ten Commandments, rewritten to reflect modern values. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9123866/Churches-adopt-new-Ten-Commandments.html

Example:

• “Thou shalt not commit adultery” have been edited to “affair-proof your relationships”
• “thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's” altered to just “find contentment.”
• “thou shalt not steal” has become “prosper with a clear conscience”

Looks like a lawyer's Nirvana to me.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

Naagh!  You are too materialistic in your views.

 

Just think how rich you will be in your heart, knowing that the UK is no longer controlled by the EU.

 

I will sacrifice a few Baht for that.

UK was never controlled by EU. UK was a member who made the EU rules.

 

Well, that was at least until Nigel Farage started his fight against EU. One person, with agenda can be quite disastrous for co-operation. 

 

 

[mfd101]

5 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Naagh!  You are too materialistic in your views.

 

Just think how rich you will be in your heart, knowing that the UK is no longer controlled by the EU.

 

I will sacrifice a few Baht for that.

Ha ha. I'm an Aussie so it doesn't affect me one bit. Just watching, bemused, from a distance.

 

What will be fun will be watching the trade deal negotiations with Oz & NZ. The Oz government has been making polite noises so far but we know where the devil will be, and those of us with long memories remember the 1960s EEC negotiations.

 

The Kiwis of course will be panting eagerly to oblige Mother with anything she wants ...

[Jip99]

15 minutes ago, oilinki said:

UK was never controlled by EU. UK was a member who made the EU rules.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Blimey!

 

 

If I had know that I would have voted Remain.

 

 

 

Poor campaigning by the Remain camp...

[My Thai Life]

When you look at the size of our trade deficits with the bigger EU players, and add to that the UK's budget contribution, you can see that the UK is actually in a strong negotiating position. Now we just need some strong negotiators with a unified vision, and there's the rub. The EU has flexed before, it can do it again.

 

 

 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

Blimey!

 

If I had know that I would have voted Remain.

 

Poor campaigning by the Remain camp...

Indeed. The Remain side never took the vote seriously. 

 

Fortunately the rest of us can learn from UK's mistakes so that we don't have to repeat the same mistakes. That would be stupid. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

When you look at the size of our trade deficits with the bigger EU players, and add to that the UK's budget contribution, you can see that the UK is actually in a strong negotiating position. Now we just need some strong negotiators with a unified vision, and there's the rub. The EU has flexed before, it can do it again.

 

The graph shows that UK has not as much products and services which EU countries are willing to buy compared what UK is buying from other EU countries.

 

Should we just give up talking about negotiations. We are heading to no-deal brexit and each EU member country should prepare for that, if we haven't done so already.

 

[My Thai Life]

12 minutes ago, oilinki said:

The graph shows that UK has not as much products and services which EU countries are willing to buy compared what UK is buying from other EU countries.

 

Should we just give up talking about negotiations. We are heading to no-deal brexit and each EU member country should prepare for that, if we haven't done so already.

Yes, as I said and you have paraphrased, the graph shows our trade deficits with individual EU countries. 

 

I think it's premature to say where we're heading. Most people with experience negotiating with the EU say that last minute "deals" are normal with the EU.

 

My point is very simple. The volume of exports to the UK that the big EU players enjoy, coupled with our budget contribution is really what this is all about. And those countries need "frictionless" trade much more than we do.

 

 

[My Thai Life]

16 hours ago, Grouse said:

I still do not see ANY tangible benefits.

You keep saying this Grouse. And I've answered this point many times: it's academic to talk about tangible benefits in  the absence of a tangible agreement. But the benefits can be grouped into several categories:

 

> political benefits of sovereignty

> benefits of increased domestic policy control

> benefits of reduced prices, especially food prices, which are estimated to be artificially higher by 17% due to the CAP

> benefits of freeer trade and trade liberalisation

> benefits of trade deals with faster growing regions

> benefits to the City of less regulation

> less red tape for the vast majority of SMEs (small to medium businesses) who don't trade with the EU.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

You keep saying this Grouse. And I've answered this point many times: it's academic to talk about tangible benefits in  the absence of a tangible agreement. But the benefits can be grouped into several categories:

 

> political benefits of sovereignty

> benefits of increased domestic policy control

> benefits of reduced prices, especially food prices, which are estimated to be artificially higher by 17% due to the CAP

> benefits of freeer trade and trade liberalisation

> benefits of trade deals with faster growing regions

> benefits to the City of less regulation

> less red tape for the vast majority of SMEs (small to medium businesses) who don't trade with the EU.

 

Well you got one right:

 

“benefits to the City of less regulation”

 

And for that the rest of the nation will pay a heavy price.

[melvinmelvin]

18 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Yes, as I said and you have paraphrased, the graph shows our trade deficits with individual EU countries. 

 

I think it's premature to say where we're heading. Most people with experience negotiating with the EU say that last minute "deals" are normal with the EU.

 

My point is very simple. The volume of exports to the UK that the big EU players enjoy, coupled with our budget contribution is really what this is all about. And those countries need "frictionless" trade much more than we do.

 

 

 

not only with EU,

deals being done in the 11th hour is not uncommon re tricky negotiations with a fixed time limit

goes pretty much for any multilateral org.

[melvinmelvin]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Well you got one right:

 

“benefits to the City of less regulation”

 

And for that the rest of the nation will pay a heavy price.

 

hmm, smth went wrong here, please disregard this

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

not only with EU,

deals being done in the 11th hour is not uncommon re tricky negotiations with a fixed time limit

goes pretty much for any multilateral org.

There are dozens of deals to be done, there is next to zero progress on any.

 

 

The last minute deal will be the UK caving.

[tebee]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

There are dozens of deals to be done, there is next to zero progress on any.

 

 

The last minute deal will be the UK caving.

Or the UK dropping out without a deal and trying to blame the EU because TM does not want to lose face....

[bristolboy]

32 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

 

 

 And those countries need "frictionless" trade much more than we do.

 

 

Maybe you really are, as you have claimed to be, an expert in finance. Anything's possible. Not so much in economics.

Edited August 29, 2018 by bristolboy

[melvinmelvin]

31 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

You keep saying this Grouse. And I've answered this point many times: it's academic to talk about tangible benefits in  the absence of a tangible agreement. But the benefits can be grouped into several categories:

 

> political benefits of sovereignty

> benefits of increased domestic policy control

> benefits of reduced prices, especially food prices, which are estimated to be artificially higher by 17% due to the CAP

> benefits of freeer trade and trade liberalisation

> benefits of trade deals with faster growing regions

> benefits to the City of less regulation

> less red tape for the vast majority of SMEs (small to medium businesses) who don't trade with the EU.

 

 

pretty good list, not very tangible line items though, but but but

 

to line item 2 you can add international policy control

 

for those after the first two; remains to be seen,

depending partly on domestic politics and regulations

depending partly on UK's clout and  charm/attractiveness on the global stage

 

I think the latter is important. The whole world is following Brexit with great interest.

After having seen the UK cabinet in action or inaction over the past couple of years it will take quite

some effort to dig up the necessary trust needed for entering into any large scale trade deal with the UK.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

Or the UK dropping out without a deal and trying to blame the EU because TM does not want to lose face....

That has been the theme overall. EU's stance for the negotiations is to get the best possible deal for us, the European people. UK's government has been fighting internally mainly to save face of few people. 

 

I guess we are fundamentally different people after all. At least what we expect from our leaders is quite different.

[mfd101]

37 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

And those countries need "frictionless" trade much more than we do

And why is that? I should have thought that that applied to ANY country that had its collective head screwed on!

[mfd101]

5 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

The whole world is following Brexit with great interest.

After having seen the UK cabinet in action or inaction over the past couple of years it will take quite

some effort to dig up the necessary trust needed for entering into any large scale trade deal with the UK.

Yes, and the EU will never trust the Brits again, even if they do decide to stay in! Wonderful basis for a strategic partnership of any kind - economic, cultural, military ...

[rixalex]

Well you got one right:
 
“benefits to the City of less regulation”
 
And for that the rest of the nation will pay a heavy price.

If (a big "if") the rest of the nation pays a heavy price thanks to deregulation, the rest of the nation will simply vote the government out at the next election, and vote in a pro-regulation party.

Out of the EU the buck will always stop at the government of the day. No more excuses about hands being tied and having to follow EU directives. And if British people aren't happy with something, it's in their power to change it. It's the joy of self determination.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[My Thai Life]

Some of you might recognise this... even the most prescient of forecasters can never be 100%... don't take it too seriously.