UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, Card said:

The EU don't want us anymore - they are tired of the whole Brexit affair. They would only ask us to re-apply

 

 

tired of brexit? hardly, more like tired of UK I would think

 

for years and years the UK has been dragging their feet in EU and done her utmost to delay developments,

a real p in the a she has been

 

but UK has provided quite a few excellent bureaucrats to the CEC who has done formidable work

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

but UK has provided quite a few excellent bureaucrats to the CEC who has done formidable work

 

Well thank god for that! Just what the EU needs, more f***ing pen-pushers!

[melvinmelvin]

6 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Well thank god for that! Just what the EU needs, more f***ing pen-pushers!

 

the people that come to mind are not average pen pushers

but people who have made groundbreaking new advances in modern regulation

some of them bloody brilliant

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Mervyn nailed it......

 

Former Bank of England governor Lord King has blasted Brexit preparations as "incompetent".

King said it "beggared belief" that the world's sixth-biggest economy should be talking of stockpiling food and medicines.

This left the government without a credible bargaining position, he said.

 

A spokesperson for the Department for Exiting the European Union (DExEU) said that getting a good deal with the EU was "by far, the most likely outcome".

Lord King said that "a government that cannot take action to prevent some of these catastrophic outcomes illustrates a whole lack of preparation".

 

"It doesn't tell us anything about whether the policy of staying in the EU is good or bad, it tells us everything about the incompetence of the preparation for it."

 

 

it tells you a fair bit of King's views on the Brexit portfolio, not much beyond that

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

the people that come to mind are not average pen pushers

but people who have made groundbreaking new advances in modern regulation

some of them bloody brilliant

 

 

I'll defer to your knowledge in this regard, any names? But to my mind there are very few useful functions of your average bureaucrat, EEA/EU is already a heavily regulated place, in certain respects that is advantageous to the public, in most areas of everyday life I'd say it has been a massive headache for many and one reason the UK would be better off out. I tend to despise bureaucracy anyway, so my view may be a little, ahem, 'coloured', having dealt with too much of it in my life and witnessing it's near total ineffectiveness and redundancy in most situations.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, Henryford said:

It's all part of Quisling May's cunning plan. She makes a complete balls up of the Brexit negotiations then says "look we are heading for chaos we have to have another vote", knowing full well that the people will not vote for chaos.

 

You have to admit it is clever. She gets to stay in the EUSSR without looking like she has ignored the original vote.

You really believe she or anyone else in the Tory party knows what they are doing; utter delusion!

[adammike]

2 hours ago, Henryford said:

Yes and you can imagine the terms of our readmission. They would make us grovel, take the Euro with the Pound at an all time low, and give us the same bargaining rights as Malta. It makes me sick that the once Great Britain has to beg to be part of this corrupt Fourth Reich.

Don't worry it won't be a great Britain anymore just a diminished England and maybe Wales,The Scots will be gone and the Irish will join up and live happily ever after.

[Jip99]

22 minutes ago, adammike said:

Don't worry it won't be a great Britain anymore just a diminished England and maybe Wales,The Scots will be gone and the Irish will join up and live happily ever after.

 

 

 

I wish them well.

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, Henryford said:

Yes and you can imagine the terms of our readmission. They would make us grovel, take the Euro with the Pound at an all time low, and give us the same bargaining rights as Malta. It makes me sick that the once Great Britain has to beg to be part of this corrupt Fourth Reich.

Some Brexiteers here appear to be having a total breakdown.

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I'll defer to your knowledge in this regard, any names? But to my mind there are very few useful functions of your average bureaucrat, EEA/EU is already a heavily regulated place, in certain respects that is advantageous to the public, in most areas of everyday life I'd say it has been a massive headache for many and one reason the UK would be better off out. I tend to despise bureaucracy anyway, so my view may be a little, ahem, 'coloured', having dealt with too much of it in my life and witnessing it's near total ineffectiveness and redundancy in most situations.

So right! In sunny UK there aren't any bureaucrats. Just an army of shopkeepers and train guards to keep the nation functioning. Calling Max Weber!

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I'll defer to your knowledge in this regard, any names? But to my mind there are very few useful functions of your average bureaucrat, EEA/EU is already a heavily regulated place, in certain respects that is advantageous to the public, in most areas of everyday life I'd say it has been a massive headache for many and one reason the UK would be better off out. I tend to despise bureaucracy anyway, so my view may be a little, ahem, 'coloured', having dealt with too much of it in my life and witnessing it's near total ineffectiveness and redundancy in most situations.

 

names, sorry no, too many years since I worked with 'em

(might have the names in some remote corner on my laptop .....)

 

the first major deregulation task the CEC embarked upon was the Telecom sector,

took them well over 10 years to sort that one  out

started in late 1980s, the main architect from UK, a brilliant thinker, those who worked for him adored him and respected him no end,

and he was also very very good company at the pub in the evening

 

another chap, somewhat stiff-lipped but crystal clear thinker - his field; satellite regulation (very important to EU and TABD)

had a fairly high position in the red tapery, bloody bright, no good for company at the pub - mai pen rai

 

MRA for MES, UK bureaucrats - way forward of most of the world (and some others - not UK alone)

 

OSS, one stop shopping for pan european licences, again - forward looking uk bureaucrats (but also others)

 

and (this is tricky to talk about in a few words);

the whole shift in the way of regulating

leaving the idea of technology/substance oriented regulation and embracing quality/sefurity oriented regulation

and putting the onus on the industry to prove that what they do is sound

this is a major shift in regulation philosophy - UK were in the forefront here, but not alone.

this type of regulation is emerging all over the planet now,

but EU (and the Norwegian Petroleum Production Directorate) were the pioneers

 

 

[tomacht8]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

- Snip -

EEA/EU is already a heavily regulated place, in certain respects that is advantageous to the public, in most areas of everyday life I'd say it has been a massive headache for many and one reason the UK would be better off out. 

Can you perhaps give concrete examples for this? What exactly are the EU regulations that make you headache in your daily life?

 

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, Henryford said:

It's all part of Quisling May's cunning plan. She makes a complete balls up of the Brexit negotiations then says "look we are heading for chaos we have to have another vote", knowing full well that the people will not vote for chaos.

You have to admit it is clever. She gets to stay in the EUSSR without looking like she has ignored the original vote.

Conspiracy nuts on a roll.

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

You really believe she or anyone else in the Tory party knows what they are doing; utter delusion!

Yes. She is trying to make the best of a bad situation. So maybe you can talk us through the Labour Party position and what we should think it is doing.

[bristolboy]

4 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I'll defer to your knowledge in this regard, any names? But to my mind there are very few useful functions of your average bureaucrat, EEA/EU is already a heavily regulated place, in certain respects that is advantageous to the public, in most areas of everyday life I'd say it has been a massive headache for many and one reason the UK would be better off out. I tend to despise bureaucracy anyway, so my view may be a little, ahem, 'coloured', having dealt with too much of it in my life and witnessing it's near total ineffectiveness and redundancy in most situations.

The World Bank offers a yearly survey on the ease of doing business in most of the nations of the world. The UK ranks 7th. In fact, with the exceptions of Greece, Luxembourg, and Belgium, all the nations in the EU are judged to be very easy to do business in. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_doing_business_index

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Yes. She is trying to make the best of a bad situation. So maybe you can talk us through the Labour Party position and what we should think it is doing.

Sorry, Corbyn is addressing more pressing issues in the synagogue. ?

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Yes. She is trying to make the best of a bad situation. So maybe you can talk us through the Labour Party position and what we should think it is doing.

Yes. She is trying to make the best of a bad situation.

 

She made that situation much worse than the simple matter it was. 

 

 

It's really not a Labour problem.  Sick of Tories trying to externalise their problems.

[Jip99]

Northern ports prepare for freight boost after Brexit

Harbours expand facilities as shipping companies seek alternatives to Dover

 

https://www.ft.com/content/cb5bafd8-af7a-11e8-8d14-6f049d06439c?segmentId=9b41d47b-8acb-fadb-7c70-37ee589b60ab

[SheungWan]

5 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Yes. She is trying to make the best of a bad situation. So maybe you can talk us through the Labour Party position and what we should think it is doing.

 

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Yes. She is trying to make the best of a bad situation.

She made that situation much worse than the simple matter it was. 

It's really not a Labour problem.  Sick of Tories trying to externalise their problems.

What a complete cop-out. And as for sick, the Labour Party current sickness a total match for anything the Tories have. The pathetic attempt of some Remainers to turn the Brexit process into a Tory vs Labour Party game so off the mark and attempts to kick into the grass Corbyn's calculated failure to support the call for a re-run . So much so that Brexit has become a purely internal Tory civil war and Labour hoping to just opportunistically pick up the pieces. Not a Labour problem? Pass the sick bag Alice.

Edited September 5, 2018 by SheungWan

[BwindiBoy]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

 

What a complete cop-out. And as for sick, the Labour Party current sickness a total match for anything the Tories have. The pathetic attempt of some Remainers to turn the Brexit process into a Tory vs Labour Party game so off the mark and attempts to kick into the grass Corbyn's calculated failure to support the call for a re-run . So much so that Brexit has become a purely internal Tory civil war and Labour hoping to just opportunistically pick up the pieces. Not a Labour problem? Pass the sick bag Alice.

Projection, anyone?

 

It's the Tories that are dealing (so, so terribly badly) with Brexit, so it IS a Tory problem.  However bad anyone thinks Labour are, they surely could not do any worse than the absolute ineptitude being shown on a daily basis by the Tories...but that's all irrelevant as it is the TORIES that are responsible for Brexit, 100%.

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

What a complete cop-out. And as for sick, the Labour Party current sickness a total match for anything the Tories have. The pathetic attempt of some Remainers to turn the Brexit process into a Tory vs Labour Party game so off the mark and attempts to kick into the grass Corbyn's calculated failure to support the call for a re-run . So much so that Brexit has become a purely internal Tory civil war and Labour hoping to just opportunistically pick up the pieces. Not a Labour problem? Pass the sick bag Alice.

 

Dug their own grave..... now lay in it!

 

Who agreed to a referendum? Who devised such a poor format?  Who showed such utter incompetence right from day one?  Who sought to circumvent the supremacy of Parliament, not once but twice?

 

What any other party can do just depends on what can be salvaged from a terrible campaign.

 

 

 

[SheungWan]

Bwindiboy:

"Projection, anyone?

It's the Tories that are dealing (so, so terribly badly) with Brexit, so it IS a Tory problem.  However bad anyone thinks Labour are, they surely could not do any worse than the absolute ineptitude being shown on a daily basis by the Tories...but that's all irrelevant as it is the TORIES that are responsible for Brexit, 100%."

********************************************************

Brexit is a Parliamentary responsibility. Trying to pretend that Corbyn's pro-Brexit sympathies have no bearing is a nonsense. Cannot do any worse? Great manifesto there. If Labour MPs do manage to have any impact it will be in spite of Corbyn, not because of Corbyn. And as for ineptitude, Labour more tied up with the toxic anti-Semitism in its ranks. Anybody want to rank that a higher horse than the Tory nonsense? Go for it. Again, Brexit is a Parliamentary responsibility. Attempting sitting on one's hands and/or finessing inactivity is opportunism of the first order. Oh! And there is a reason why the Tories have beaten Labour two General Elections running. That's right. Labour considered more useless than the Tories. Well done.

Edited September 5, 2018 by SheungWan

[SheungWan]

36 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Dug their own grave..... now lay in it!

Who agreed to a referendum? Who devised such a poor format?  Who showed such utter incompetence right from day one?  Who sought to circumvent the supremacy of Parliament, not once but twice?

What any other party can do just depends on what can be salvaged from a terrible campaign.

Corbyn certainly did his bit for Remain to have lost. He was and is one of the undertakers digging that grave. And that is the bottom line. Apart from continuing in the same vein that is.

Edited September 5, 2018 by SheungWan

[BwindiBoy]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Bwindiboy:

"Projection, anyone?

It's the Tories that are dealing (so, so terribly badly) with Brexit, so it IS a Tory problem.  However bad anyone thinks Labour are, they surely could not do any worse than the absolute ineptitude being shown on a daily basis by the Tories...but that's all irrelevant as it is the TORIES that are responsible for Brexit, 100%."

********************************************************

Brexit is a Parliamentary responsibility. Trying to pretend that Corbyn's pro-Brexit sympathies have no bearing is a nonsense. Cannot do any worse? Great manifesto there. If Labour MPs do manage to have any impact it will be in spite of Corbyn, not because of Corbyn. And as for ineptitude, Labour more tied up with the toxic anti-Semitism in its ranks. Anybody want to rank that a higher horse than the Tory nonsense? Go for it. Again, Brexit is a Parliamentary responsibility. Attempting sitting on one's hands and/or finessing inactivity is opportunism of the first order. Oh! And there is a reason why the Tories have beaten Labour two General Elections running. That's right. Labour considered more useless than the Tories. Well done.

Projection confirmed!

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

14 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

Can you perhaps give concrete examples for this? What exactly are the EU regulations that make you headache in your daily life?

 

Luckily for me I don't have to put up with it in the UK on too regular-a-basis, as I haven't lived there year-round for some time. I'm indicting the Thai bureaucratic system more than the UK's to be honest. But having experienced an abundance of bureaucracy in places like India and Italy and Thailand (places well known for their proclivity for bureaucracy) and have witnessed it's total redundancy, I have a unrestrained loathing of it. So often these jobs seem to exist to create a barrier to something that should be more easily obtainable for all, in order to cynically create a revenue (through charges) around the service to obtain whatever it is you're after. All too often my feeling is the majority of these positions exist to give some jobsworth a day job. If anyone disagrees then all I can say is this - you haven't experience much bureaucracy, you lucky person! I know how everyday systems work and I'm not an idealist, but bureaucracy when it becomes too large and all-pervading is without doubt a headache for all concerned.

 

As a case in point I suggest you take a look at the national archives in London and you'll see just how much extra, and many would argue, unnecessary regulation and legislation has come in to being since the UK has joined the EEA/EU. Literally shelves and shelves of it - hundreds of thick volumes of 'new and improved' directives over each decade - 

 

I'm not saying that ALL regulation is a bad thing per-se, in some sectors it is obviously necessary, (in some more than others however) but that over-regulation and the addition of red-tape year on year, along with hate speech laws and the policing of our language, the ridiculous obsession with health and safety etc. has seriously become overkill and the public grow weary of it all. I can give you specific examples of acquaintances and friends who have been operating small businesses and not been able to comply with every single minute detail (often financially orientated) that has been forced upon them especially from health and safety regulatory bodies - directives famously passed from on high from the EU courts - and it has really affected their ability to operate or even open a businesses easily. Said businesses were in construction, landscaping and a news agency - speak to small business operators nation wide and you'll hear the same story, apparently.

 

13 hours ago, bristolboy said:

The World Bank offers a yearly survey on the ease of doing business in most of the nations of the world. The UK ranks 7th. In fact, with the exceptions of Greece, Luxembourg, and Belgium, all the nations in the EU are judged to be very easy to do business in. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_doing_business_index

Laughable - consider the source! WB, p-leeeeeease! I wouldn't trust the turds as far as I can throw them and neither should you. For a real understanding survey enough small business owners within the UK not some trumped up piece of propaganda from a bought and paid for institution like the WB, IMF or CFR. 

 

 

[tomacht8]

@ canterbrigianBangkoker

Approval in the area that too much bureaucracy can be annoying. I have several companies myself and have worked for years in the largest founding center in germany and looked after over 600 start-ups.

 

But the legal requirements for small businesses are over 95% national law: tax office, business supervision, finance, health insurance, chamber of commerce, chamber of trade and food handling health department.

 

EU laws did not affect a single founding company in my decades of practice.

Edited September 6, 2018 by tomacht8

[sandyf]

23 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

what is it that you call consitution? treaty of rome as amended or the eea treaty?

 

anyway,

 

there is very strong legal support for TM's view, both among eea and eu legal scholars and among uk legal experts

 

if an eea signatory withdraws from efta or eu, the whole basis for being party to eea vanishes

being party to eea and not being party to either of efta/eu is kinda vacuum without much meaning

 

I know there are some legal papers in UK challenging TM's views, built on fairly shallow analysis me thinks

 

Are you trying to say the position has been clarified?

[sandyf]

23 hours ago, rixalex said:

Governments find money when they need to and want to. Just look at the way the current government found money to throw at the DUP.

Blaming the shortage of funds for the mentally ill on the cost of Brexit is a nonsense. Quite possible to fund both things if both things are seen as a priority. And there's the rub.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

When interviewed on BBC news, Mervyn King said the essential services were drowning because of brexit, take it you think he has got it wrong as well.

But your right, they want the money for brexit and nothing else is seen as a priority.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

53 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

@ canterbrigianBangkoker

Approval in the area that too much bureaucracy can be annoying. I have several companies myself and have worked for years in the largest founding center in germany and looked after over 600 start-ups.

 

But the legal requirements for small businesses are over 95% national law: tax office, business supervision, finance, health insurance, chamber of commerce, chamber of trade and food handling health department.

 

EU laws did not affect a single founding company in my decades of practice.

Fair enough tomacht8, we don't entirely disagree I feel, all I would say is that National Law is subject to edict from the EU, that is kind of the whole point. I am not trying to contend that you're being disingenuous when you say that 'EU laws did not affect a single founding company in my experience', but I would wonder how you would ever know for sure - if you have been involved in as many start ups as you say - and that this is not an experience shared by other people around the country that I've read about / listened to and in a few instances know, personally. I am of the opinion that the following seem to go hand in hand - over-regulation (H&S is a perfect example), increased red-tape and equally importantly, directives on such fundamental things as laws regarding freedom of speech, accepted vernacular and the policing of it - and that these maladies are usually situated atop a very dystopian slippery slope. 

Edited September 6, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Orac]

Are you trying to say the position has been clarified?

Very useful article here regarding U.K. membership of EEA, particularly so since it is from the former EU legal head honcho.

https://esharp.eu/debates/the-uk-and-europe/why-the-uk-will-not-become-an-eea-member-after-brexit#.W44uwwjj_Nl.twitter



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