Squealing front brakes

NanLaew · August 31, 2018

I recently replaced my front brake shoes on my Ranger at our local B-Quick as they were the easiest and cheapest option and at 84,000 km, I was between Ford services. They use genuine Bendix brake shoes as well for which paid 1650 baht and it took about 90 minutes.

The original OEM brake shoes weren't making much noise beyond the odd chirp on a cool morning when cold. At the last regular service at 75,000 km, Ford only flagged them for possible replacement at the next service due at 90,000 km. Now the new brakes are increasingly squealing at low-speed stops in the morning traffic crawl, hot and cold.

Since the rotors are not worn or scored but look like a mirror, I reckon it's the baked-on, glass-like brake dust that's causing this new squealing?

Before I take it back to B-Quick, does anyone know if they have the ability to take the rotors off and hone this glaze off the surface?

Thanks!

NL

transam · August 31, 2018

I have found that Britax pads can squeal until they have bedded in, my latest set did. Remember at B-quik you have a guaranty note. Don't lose it. Give the pads some time to bed in, if still a problem take it back. They do skim rotors in situ, but new pads should be fitted when done so everything is "flat"..

BEVUP · August 31, 2018

Yes they should be able to, would no doubt send the rotors (disks ) away ( maybe )

& along comes Transam as I write 555

Looks like Transam knows about that brand of brake pad

fredob43 · August 31, 2018

Did they put brake grease on the back of the pads? if not that might be the thing to try first.

NanLaew · August 31, 2018

19 minutes ago, transam said:

I have found that Britax pads can squeal until they have bedded in, my latest set did. Remember at B-quik you have a guaranty note. Don't lose it. Give the pads some time to bed in, if still a problem take it back. They do skim rotors in situ, but new pads should be fitted when done so everything is "flat"..

How long did it take to bed-in? Hopefully we have a drier weekend coming up so I can crawl underneath and look at the inner rotor surfaces. Looking at the mirror-like outer rotor faces, they didn't skim anything, just fitted the new pads.

I do have the receipt and the cashier did point out the warranty period.

15 minutes ago, BEVUP said:

Yes they should be able to, would no doubt send the rotors (disks ) away ( maybe )

& along comes Transam as I write 555

Looks like Transam knows about that brand of brake pad

transam is damn good... ask Mrs trans!

4 minutes ago, fredob43 said:

Did they put brake grease on the back of the pads? if not that might be the thing to try first.

I didn't check on any of the work while in progress so I can only assume that they used all the new clips and accessories that Bendix and name-brand brake parts normally supply as part of the replacement kit. What's with brake grease on the back of pads BTW? Name-brand pads should have proper anti-vibration shims on the back faces of the pads and apart from copper-based lube for pistons and rust inhibitor on hub facings, I haven't seen mention of any brake grease on the slew of YouTube's I viewed on the subject.

Thanks chaps.

Farangwithaplan · August 31, 2018

Brake noise is usually caused by vibration between the pad and the caliper or caliper piston. Use a product like this http://www.crcindustries.com/products/disc-brake-quiet-4-fl-oz-05016.html to dampen the vibration. The rotor only needs machining if they are not true. They need to be replaced if out of tolerance.

Also, brake pads come in a variety of densities. Harder pads are more prone to squealing. Software pads wear quicker but offer better bite. Scintered pads offer better stopping power but wear the rotor faster and are not recommended for regular vehicles.

Do you know the model of Bendix pads thsat were installed? The SKU number is probably on the invoice.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Farangwithaplan

transam · August 31, 2018

7 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

How long did it take to bed-in? Hopefully we have a drier weekend coming up so I can crawl underneath and look at the inner rotor surfaces. Looking at the mirror-like outer rotor faces, they didn't skim anything, just fitted the new pads.

I do have the receipt and the cashier did point out the warranty period.

transam is damn good... ask Mrs trans!

I didn't check on any of the work while in progress so I can only assume that they used all the new clips and accessories that Bendix and name-brand brake parts normally supply as part of the replacement kit. What's with brake grease on the back of pads BTW? Name-brand pads should have proper anti-vibration shims on the back faces of the pads and apart from copper-based lube for pistons and rust inhibitor on hub facings, I haven't seen mention of any brake grease on the slew of YouTube's I viewed on the subject.

Thanks chaps.

You do need to put some kilometers on them to bed in. You have plenty of time...If the rotors need skimming they usually point that out to make a few quid. Anti squeal stuff is usually only used if a problem persists, copper grease can be used to..

NanLaew · August 31, 2018

2 minutes ago, Farangwithaplan said:

Brake noise is usually caused by vibration between the pad and the caliper or caliper piston. Use a product like this http://www.crcindustries.com/products/disc-brake-quiet-4-fl-oz-05016.html to dampen the vibration. The rotor only needs machining if they are not true. They need to be replaced if out of tolerance.

Looks like the 'brake grease' that fredob was talking about? I note it says it's "For use on the back of non-shimmed disc pads." I think most modern brake pads have proper shims while cheaper, non-brand stuff have thin plates that look like shims but really aren't.

Farangwithaplan · August 31, 2018

9 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Looks like the 'brake grease' that fredob was talking about? I note it says it's "For use on the back of non-shimmed disc pads." I think most modern brake pads have proper shims while cheaper, non-brand stuff have thin plates that look like shims but really aren't.

It dries into a semi hard compound. It is not like grease. I'm not sure what year your vehicle is or the caliper config. Good luck with reducing the noise.

fredob43 · August 31, 2018

2 hours ago, NanLaew said:

How long did it take to bed-in? Hopefully we have a drier weekend coming up so I can crawl underneath and look at the inner rotor surfaces. Looking at the mirror-like outer rotor faces, they didn't skim anything, just fitted the new pads.

I do have the receipt and the cashier did point out the warranty period.

transam is damn good... ask Mrs trans!

I didn't check on any of the work while in progress so I can only assume that they used all the new clips and accessories that Bendix and name-brand brake parts normally supply as part of the replacement kit. What's with brake grease on the back of pads BTW? Name-brand pads should have proper anti-vibration shims on the back faces of the pads and apart from copper-based lube for pistons and rust inhibitor on hub facings, I haven't seen mention of any brake grease on the slew of YouTube's I viewed on the subject.

Thanks chaps.

Brake Grease I was referring to was the copper based lude, Brake grease was quicker to tap out. You will find that applying some to the back of the pads between the pads and shims it'll stop the squeal.

Tip never let anyone sort out your lump without watching them closely at every turn. Most here are bodge it and op it individuals. Least they do the better.

NanLaew · September 1, 2018

22 hours ago, fredob43 said:

Brake Grease I was referring to was the copper based lude, Brake grease was quicker to tap out. You will find that applying some to the back of the pads between the pads and shims it'll stop the squeal.

Tip never let anyone sort out your lump without watching them closely at every turn. Most here are bodge it and op it individuals. Least they do the better.

Thanks for the clarification. Most YouTube's I watched (and I watched a lot since there' some absolute clowns posting sh!te) the ones posted by auto shops settled on the 2 lubes with a rust inhibitor type for big metal-to-metal facing like rotors on hubs and then bespoke brake lube for the calipers, guides, clips and things that will stop even pressures across the pad face. Been a bit of an edumacation so next time since I will be out of warranty, it will be a DIY job.

I have long given up stalking the service bays of dealerships and auto shops and telling them what to do. When they once insisted that their hand-held battery tester with printout and LED display said the battery was good, I said fine... and went out and bought a better one anyway. Watching the sales dollies in their tight skirts while I'm sipping a cappuccino in the air-conditioned waiting room is more my speed. Luckily, the 2 Ford shops I have used have done things right the first time (regular services and warranty work, no dramas) but if I have to go back for more cappuccino and dolly watching, so be it. Now I'm out of warranty, I just need to find a local, mom and pop auto shop with dollies... or a pretty daughter. The B-Quick receptionist was polite and courteous... but homely.

And no coffee machine either.

Edited September 1, 2018 by NanLaew

fredob43 · September 1, 2018

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

Thanks for the clarification. Most YouTube's I watched (and I watched a lot since there' some absolute clowns posting sh!te) the ones posted by auto shops settled on the 2 lubes with a rust inhibitor type for big metal-to-metal facing like rotors on hubs and then bespoke brake lube for the calipers, guides, clips and things that will stop even pressures across the pad face. Been a bit of an edumacation so next time since I will be out of warranty, it will be a DIY job.

I have long given up stalking the service bays of dealerships and auto shops and telling them what to do. When they once insisted that their hand-held battery tester with printout and LED display said the battery was good, I said fine... and went out and bought a better one anyway. Watching the sales dollies in their tight skirts while I'm sipping a cappuccino in the air-conditioned waiting room is more my speed. Luckily, the 2 Ford shops I have used have done things right the first time (regular services and warranty work, no dramas) but if I have to go back for more cappuccino and dolly watching, so be it. Now I'm out of warranty, I just need to find a local, mom and pop auto shop with dollies... or a pretty daughter. The B-Quick receptionist was polite and courteous... but homely.

And no coffee machine either.

Re clarification. I just assumed the brake grease I talked about most motor peeps would know it was copper grease.

In the past I did all my own servicing didn't trust any UK peeps. It was also easy to do sort out points set carbs.

Now it's what the ? is going on under the bonnet.

I now just go to Toyo garage (My local one is great) I also look at the ladies whilst having free coffees. There's also free food.

That's until my lump goes up on the lift then it's standing next to the service peeps to make sure they do all I require. As my technical Thai is almost non existent it's a point and mumble. Whatever they seem to get my drift.

Next one for me is the 20th service will do that in a couple of weeks. That is a biggish one wheels off rebalance, brakes cleaned + the usual 8lt of full syn: oil. oil filter, Eng: Air filter, A/C filter, clean change as required. Grease prop, I believe they clean the fuel filter set up as well. Whatever it'll be less that 3th bht inc: not forgetting the free Valet. Shall arrive with clean hands and leave the same. Just a few bob lighter.

Edited September 1, 2018 by fredob43

NanLaew · December 8, 2018

An upate. After +3000 km and no sign of any 'bedding in' making the front brakes quieter, I dropped by B-Quick and they quickly stuck the beast on the hoist and after removing the wheels were very happy to point out the bleeding obvious that my mirror-like rotors needed skimming. Since they were mirror-like when they replaced the brake shoes over 3 months ago, I wonder why it wasn't even suggested back then?

Oh well, sorted now.

transam · December 8, 2018

3 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

An upate. After +3000 km and no sign of any 'bedding in' making the front brakes quieter, I dropped by B-Quick and they quickly stuck the beast on the hoist and after removing the wheels were very happy to point out the bleeding obvious that my mirror-like rotors needed skimming. Since they were mirror-like when they replaced the brake shoes over 3 months ago, I wonder why it wasn't even suggested back then?

Oh well, sorted now.

They usually do point out skimming is required.....????

NanLaew · December 8, 2018

5 hours ago, transam said:

They usually do point out skimming is required.....????

But they didn't. Amazing Thailand.

fredob43 · December 9, 2018

22 hours ago, NanLaew said:

An upate. After +3000 km and no sign of any 'bedding in' making the front brakes quieter, I dropped by B-Quick and they quickly stuck the beast on the hoist and after removing the wheels were very happy to point out the bleeding obvious that my mirror-like rotors needed skimming. Since they were mirror-like when they replaced the brake shoes over 3 months ago, I wonder why it wasn't even suggested back then?

Oh well, sorted now.

Rotors needed skimming never heard such cobblers. Over the years I have fitted several new pads and never had to have rotors skimmed. The only thing I can think of is they fitted pads that were to hard or at least the wrong type.

I did once get quick fit to change my pads in the UK had to change them to Ford correct ones a few weeks later as the bloody thing wouldn't stop. The ones they had fitted were to hard.

Conclusion never fit copy ones only those recommended by the manufacture.

HAKAPALITA · December 9, 2018

Cosworth Ford used abrasive pads for fine balance years ago , only prob the dust stuck to the Ali Wheels if you got em hot. Skims the best way, or just bang a new pair on. Ive got Ceramic but cant tell any difference realy.In a Cold Country, they can buckle when hitting Iced Water, but here been lucky.

transam · December 9, 2018

2 hours ago, fredob43 said:

Rotors needed skimming never heard such cobblers. Over the years I have fitted several new pads and never had to have rotors skimmed. The only thing I can think of is they fitted pads that were to hard or at least the wrong type.

...

Just goes to show how little you know about stuff.....????

Most main agents will have the lathe machine to skim discs ON THE CAR.

Toyota Ubon does and so do B-Quik. But badly grooved discs must be scrapped, you can only remove a little metal...

transam · December 9, 2018

Just for Freddy....

Coremouse · December 9, 2018

Tyre shop either turn rotor in situ or use spring-loaded mini lathe, personally I don't think every shop do know their job... When i can't find trustworthy machinist nearby I would scrap worn rotors (If it's not minor case such as bent dustcover, improper fit, worn accessory etc.) new rotor and pads always solve noise.

fredob43 · December 9, 2018

10 hours ago, transam said:

Just goes to show how little you know about stuff.....????

Most main agents will have the lathe machine to skim discs ON THE CAR.

Toyota Ubon does and so do B-Quik. But badly grooved discs must be scrapped, you can only remove a little metal...

Just shows that you don't read posts. The OP stated that his rotors were not grooved but smooth. So shouldn't need Machining. All they needed were the correct pads in the first place.

Edited December 9, 2018 by fredob43

transam · December 10, 2018

7 hours ago, fredob43 said:

Just shows that you don't read posts. The OP stated that his rotors were not grooved but smooth. So shouldn't need Machining. All they needed were the correct pads in the first place.

????.......Sunbeam, whether grooved or glazed a skim brings the casting back to it's as new matt finish..????

fredob43 · December 10, 2018

2 hours ago, transam said:

????.......Sunbeam, whether grooved or glazed a skim brings the casting back to it's as new matt finish..????

Please don't take me for an idiot. I have more than likely changed more pads than you have had hot dinners. Many years ago I used to race Lotus cars for Southbury motors. We used to have to change the pads after every race. And never in that time did we have to have the vented discs skimmed.

Did the OP have problems with the original ones NO. Only after he had the new ones fitted. So I can only conclude that they fitted the incorrect ones. More than likely to hard (3 months for them to bed in must have told you something) We used to bed our pads in after a quick drive down the pit lane.

You'll be telling me next that you have to skim discs every time you fit new pads.

transam · December 10, 2018

1 hour ago, fredob43 said:

Please don't take me for an idiot. I have more than likely changed more pads than you have had hot dinners. Many years ago I used to race Lotus cars for Southbury motors. We used to have to change the pads after every race. And never in that time did we have to have the vented discs skimmed.

Did the OP have problems with the original ones NO. Only after he had the new ones fitted. So I can only conclude that they fitted the incorrect ones. More than likely to hard (3 months for them to bed in must have told you something) We used to bed our pads in after a quick drive down the pit lane.

You'll be telling me next that you have to skim discs every time you fit new pads.

You are the one that never heard of rotor skimming....Please stick to your Toyota dealer....You seem to be lost regarding this subject....????

fredob43 · December 10, 2018

50 minutes ago, transam said:

You are the one that never heard of rotor skimming....Please stick to your Toyota dealer....You seem to be lost regarding this subject....????

Yet again you change the subject.
Where did I say I have never heard of skimming I just said it wasn't necessary.

And I never lost the subject I Stated facts. I use Toyo because they fit the correct parts. The poor OP listened to you and used B/Q and what happened they fitted Buddha knows what that didn't do the correct job. Then he had to I assume pay out yet again to have his discs skimmed. Conclusion never use B/Q unless you want to pay out yet more cash than necessary.

(2 Minutes)

transam · December 10, 2018

8 minutes ago, fredob43 said:

Yet again you change the subject.
Where did I say I have never heard of skimming I just said it wasn't necessary.

And I never lost the subject I Stated facts. I use Toyo because they fit the correct parts. The poor OP listened to you and used B/Q and what happened they fitted Buddha knows what that didn't do the correct job. Then he had to I assume pay out yet again to have his discs skimmed. Conclusion never use B/Q unless you want to pay out yet more cash than necessary.

(2 Minutes)

canthai55 · December 10, 2018

https://ebcbrakes.com/articles/bedding-in/

https://ebcbrakes.com/articles/pro-cut-lathe/

NanLaew · December 11, 2018

22 hours ago, fredob43 said:

Please don't take me for an idiot. I have more than likely changed more pads than you have had hot dinners. Many years ago I used to race Lotus cars for Southbury motors. We used to have to change the pads after every race. And never in that time did we have to have the vented discs skimmed.

Did the OP have problems with the original ones NO. Only after he had the new ones fitted. So I can only conclude that they fitted the incorrect ones. More than likely to hard (3 months for them to bed in must have told you something) We used to bed our pads in after a quick drive down the pit lane.

You'll be telling me next that you have to skim discs every time you fit new pads.

Pull your head in fredo. You're the only on here behaving like an idiot here with yet another 'since that's never happened to me, it's all cobblers' post.

Whatever horse leather they used for brake shoes in your aeons-old 'racing car' experience is so totally irrelevant here. Bedding in 'down the pit lane'... give me an <deleted> break.

The original OEM brake shoes (also made by Bendix) were STARTING TO SQUEAL at around 70,000 km and when I had new rims fitted around that time, I had a look at the rotors and they were VERY SMOOTH and shiny but WITHOUT grooves, ie. normal wear and tear. The pads were nowhere near where the noise-making low brake shoe steel warning feelers were touching the rotor either.

At the second B-Quick visit, the rotors were like a MIRROR, still not grooved. Rotors are not supposed to be like mirror. They get like a mirror because the fine dust that comes from NON-LEATHER, modern, composite brake shoes gets trapped between shoe and rotor and when heated by brake action, adheres like catsh!t to a blanket on the rotor face. Hard ceramic, glass-like, oven-baked glazing.

Anyway, after skimming this hard ceramic glaze off the rotor faces, they refitted the same almost new Bendix brake shoes that I had been squealing around on for the last 3000 km or so and guess what?... they had STOPPED squealing. Maybe you thing they miraculously 'bedded in' while sitting on the ground?

Now, it's your turn.

...to stop squealing I mean.

HAKAPALITA · December 11, 2018

36 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Pull your head in fredo. You're the only on here behaving like an idiot here with yet another 'since that's never happened to me, it's all cobblers' post.

Whatever horse leather they used for brake shoes in your aeons-old 'racing car' experience is so totally irrelevant here. Bedding in 'down the pit lane'... give me an <deleted> break.

The original OEM brake shoes (also made by Bendix) were STARTING TO SQUEAL at around 70,000 km and when I had new rims fitted around that time, I had a look at the rotors and they were VERY SMOOTH and shiny but WITHOUT grooves, ie. normal wear and tear. The pads were nowhere near where the noise-making low brake shoe steel warning feelers were touching the rotor either.

At the second B-Quick visit, the rotors were like a MIRROR, still not grooved. Rotors are not supposed to be like mirror. They get like a mirror because the fine dust that comes from NON-LEATHER, modern, composite brake shoes gets trapped between shoe and rotor and when heated by brake action, adheres like catsh!t to a blanket on the rotor face. Hard ceramic, glass-like, oven-baked glazing.

Anyway, after skimming this hard ceramic glaze off the rotor faces, they refitted the same almost new Bendix brake shoes that I had been squealing around on for the last 3000 km or so and guess what?... they had STOPPED squealing. Maybe you thing they miraculously 'bedded in' while sitting on the ground?

Now, it's your turn.

...to stop squealing I mean.

We real Lotus folks dont need Google. Lotus used DS 11, and VG 95 linings years ago, some wonderful memories and comaraderie n competion. Boilng Brake fluid n a cracked discy were a major prob, even with Comp Fluid. Rotors too small and non floating or vented bax then. Willand , Brembo, and yes even Brit Dunlop made good improvemens. So clear n simple now even B Quick can do a good job.

11

s 11

fredob43 · December 11, 2018

1 hour ago, HAKAPALITA said:

We real Lotus folks dont need Google. Lotus used DS 11, and VG 95 linings years ago, some wonderful memories and comaraderie n competion. Boilng Brake fluid n a cracked discy were a major prob, even with Comp Fluid. Rotors too small and non floating or vented bax then. Willand , Brembo, and yes even Brit Dunlop made good improvemens. So clear n simple now even B Quick can do a good job.

11

s 11

I agree with some of your post, but we did have large vented Discs also race pads and they bedded in fine. As I have said a few runs down the pit lane and the warm up lap and they worked first class. But must admit it did take a bit of brake pressure to do same.

Reply to N/L.

I checked my 4 discs this morning and they like yours shine like mirrors That's after 25th km. I still think they fitted pads that were to hard. Hence they wouldn't bed in. 3,000 km does seem a tad long. But that's only my opinion. It would be interesting to know if anyone has fitted ford recommended pads to see if they squeal or have problems after changing.

Edited December 11, 2018 by fredob43

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