Are You A Sexpat Or Do You Ride The Backwards Morality Train?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Not sure how hunting makes one a coward or not, and deciding to not go hunting somehow makes a person not a coward. As long as the meat is not wasted there is nothing wrong with hunting for food.

 

Most of those who do this aren't hunting for food to survive. They're doing it mainly for sport, and the food aspect is just a way of dealing with the aftermath of their sport.

 

it's senseless, needless, pathetic killing of a wild animal species that has seen its population dwindle due to human abuse.

 

[sukhumvitneon]

Anyone who agrees with this court ruling has likely never been camping in the US.

 

Thankfully, in all my days camping and fishing, I've never had to deal with a bear attack, but I've come back to campsites that were obviously ravaged by bears for food.  If a bear attacks me or a loved one, I will not hesitate to blow it away just as I would with human who is  a home invader or a carjacker.  Make no mistake, these are nuisance animals that attack and kill livestock and even people.  They don't deserve to be put on the same footing as a northern spotted owl.

[55Jay]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Not sure how hunting makes one a coward or not, and deciding to not go hunting somehow makes a person not a coward. As long as the meat is not wasted there is nothing wrong with hunting for food.

Agreed. 

 

I grew up hunting and fishing, but drifted away from the former as I got older, work, posted around the world, etc.    One trip back to the US (NE Pennsylvania) when I was in my late 20s/very early 30s, my Dad took me squirrel hunting so he could make a stew for a family get together.  I hadn't been hunting since I was about 16, I wasn't "excited" to go but I did.  Saw my first squirrel on a big pine tree.  As they do, it was skirting around the trunk to avoid me.  I got a glimpse of it and blasted it off the tree trunk with the 20 ga. shotgun I was carrying.  It fell to the forest floor, grazed by the shotgun pellets and made a gawd awful squealing sound in agony and fear.   I dispatched it and that was enough for me.  Never been hunting again. 

 

I'm not squeamish about it, it just wasn't for me anymore.    But I don't lose my wig on internet forums calling unseen, unknown people cowards.  At any rate, there's a certain irony in being called a coward by a virtue signaling keyboard warrior on the internet.   ????

Edited September 26, 2018 by 55Jay

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

56 minutes ago, sukhumvitneon said:

Anyone who agrees with this court ruling has likely never been camping in the US.

 

 

There's a pretty big difference between defending one's self against an attacking animal (and they don't just go automatically attacking all the time) vs. declaring open killing season on a prized, symbolic national species so rifle-toting yahoos can go out and start shooting them to death for sport.

 

It's not like grizzly bears are roaming the streets of New York or Los Angeles attacking misc. citizens.  This area is THEIR space, a tiny sliver of the world that humans have left the grizzly bears to live and survive, barely ().

Edited September 26, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Wake Up]

Privileged to see a mother grizzly and two cubs at Yellowstone. One of the most impressive and beautiful animals on the planet.  

[Wake Up]

5 hours ago, sukhumvitneon said:

Anyone who agrees with this court ruling has likely never been camping in the US.

 

Thankfully, in all my days camping and fishing, I've never had to deal with a bear attack, but I've come back to campsites that were obviously ravaged by bears for food.  If a bear attacks me or a loved one, I will not hesitate to blow it away just as I would with human who is  a home invader or a carjacker.  Make no mistake, these are nuisance animals that attack and kill livestock and even people.  They don't deserve to be put on the same footing as a northern spotted owl.

I have camped at Yellowstone and completely disagree with your comments and assertions. Black bears like to eat human food and that is why it is restricted in how you keep food at Yellowstone campsites.   Grizzlies don’t attack campers for food and if a grizzly did attack you it would be because you threatened it by getting to close. Of course you can protect your family and self from an attack by any animal. In Yellowstone they have bear spray that you can buy that will repeal the grizzly and black bear so you don’t have to blow away any animal. Have you ever camped out at Yellowstone?

[impulse]

11 minutes ago, Wake Up said:

Privileged to see a mother grizzly and two cubs at Yellowstone. One of the most impressive and beautiful animals on the planet.  

 

Me, too.  In about 25 visits to Yellowstone, many while living in Wyoming, I saw exactly 3 grizzly bears, a sow and 2 cubs.  And that was outside the park off the road from Cody.

 

I don't hunt, in spite of owning many firearms that I love shooting at targets.  I'm not fundamentally against hunting, since a lot of critters like deer and wild hogs are becoming a nuisance.  But to kill something as rare as a bear or a cougar for sport is basically stealing from everyone who would have been awed by the sight of those critters over the rest of their lifespan.  

 

I hunted when I was younger- never very successfully, never for big game, and never for trophies I wasn't going to eat.  But I gave it up when I became old enough the realize that life is precious.  I guess some people never have that revelation.

 

 

[bristolboy]

7 hours ago, sukhumvitneon said:

Anyone who agrees with this court ruling has likely never been camping in the US.

 

Thankfully, in all my days camping and fishing, I've never had to deal with a bear attack, but I've come back to campsites that were obviously ravaged by bears for food.  If a bear attacks me or a loved one, I will not hesitate to blow it away just as I would with human who is  a home invader or a carjacker.  Make no mistake, these are nuisance animals that attack and kill livestock and even people.  They don't deserve to be put on the same footing as a northern spotted owl.

Anyone who actually understands the court ruling knows that it is not about self-defense. It's about people looking to go and and kill grizzlies, In this case, if any party has a legitimate claim to killing in self defense, it's the grizzlies.

[Ahab]

14 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

it's senseless, needless, pathetic killing of a wild animal species that has seen its population dwindle due to human abuse.

 

In the USA the single largest contributor to wildlife conservation comes from fees for hunting (to the tune of 86 million dollars each and every year).  Plus an 11% tax on all gun and ammunition purchases which goes toward wildlife conservation.  There are also numerous hunting organizations in the US that devote thousands of hours to habitat restoration to ensure that animal populations remain at healthy levels. Well regulated wildlife management means that herds of deer and other animals do not starve to death over the winters.

 

Conservation minded hunters have done more to help wildlife populations than any other segment of society. Contrary to popular belief, regulated hunting does not cause wildlife to become endangered or extinct. In fact, many species exist today only because of the efforts and commitment of responsible, respectful hunters.

 

So while the vegans and PETA people talk a good story, the people who hunt are doing more for conservation than all the do-gooders combined. 

[Ahab]

15 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

So you would be happy to be hunted, killed and eaten by a bear would you?

 Perhaps have your throat ripped out and eaten by a lion or a tiger, maybe smashed up and stomped on by an elephant that was stalking you.

Death is a part of life. No one is happy to die unless there is great pain involved. I tend to not hang out with wild animals that can kill me, so it is unlikely to occur. Using your logic do you think a deer would prefer a rifle shot through the heart and a sudden death due to hunting, or being torn apart and eaten alive by a pack of hungry wolves, slowly over tens of minutes.

 

In the end dead is dead, make sure the meat is used and not wasted.

[Ahab]

15 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

 

Yep, it certainly takes a REAL man to stride out into nature and use a high-powered rifle to shoot and kill a comparatively defenseless animal -- all for the pleasure of mounting its stuffed head on someone's livingroom wall, or turning its hide into a rug somewhere. That's certainly what REAL men do...

All I can say is many of you making comments on this topic have zero idea what motivates hunters and what hunting is about. So go buy your pack of meat from Tesco and enjoy having someone else kill and butcher your animals for you. 

 

I really do not care whether you hunt or don't hunt, eat meat or are a vegan, I realize it has absolutely zero to do with courage or being a coward. 

[Wydahoan]

Hello, my first post, have been reading and learning for awhile now. This is a topic that I actually have some experience with as I am a local to the area. My first experience with a grizzly bear was just outside Yellowstone NP in 1984, I was awoken at daybreak by a grizzly that wanted into my Jeep Wagoneer with me, all I had inside was a package of cookies, as I was eating at the local restaurant. It tried to gain entry at every window, I had them all open a bit for air. It found one window that was promising and started really pushing down on the window with its claws, I had my trusty 22 with me, but decided that was only going to piss him off. As he was pushing down on the window he had his nose up to the crack also, at this time I moved past him and honked the horn. He then stood up and looked around, not seeing anyone else he lunged back at my window with force, so,ehow he didn't break the glass. When he did this I yelled and simultaneously got out of my sleeping bag and layer on the horn. At all this noise he finally ran off, as I was only 1 mile from Cook City I waited until 6:00am and went to the restaurant in town, the lady looked at me and knew something was up. Her husband was the local ranger, and after breakfast we went up to the campground, he verified the tracks as a grizzly. Actually my whole car was covered in prints as it had rained before he came for a visit. I want to tell you I was scared out of my mind, but I was also scared for the bears life, at that time there were maybe 250. Since then I have had many encounters, here and in Alaska, and everytime I am running on high adrenaline. My last incident was this summer in an inholding in Grand Teton NP. I was washing windows when I saw a reflection, thinking it was a moose I turned around to see a about 3 year old grizzly. It hung out between the house and the neighbors for about 20 minutes scratching at tree stumps. It showed no fear at all to me. I told some of the neighbors about it, and they weren't even conserned. Now there are almost 700 grizzlies in the area. I saw someone posted about number 399, these bears are getting habitualized to people and I am not sure it's a good idea. In the old Wild West grizzlies had a much bigger range, but now they are squeezed into a smaller area. Up until the reintroduction of wolves and the recovery of grizzlies they were many moose here, this summer after 35 trips to the park I saw zero, when in the past it would have been at least twenty to thirty. All the moose are in the subdivisions now, getting hit on the highways, but seemingly safe from wolves and bears. Just last week a hunter and guide were returning to a elk kill and were charged by a grizzly and her cub, the guide was killed and partially eaten, while the bears left the elk carcass alone. You can read about that in the Jackson Hole news. I haven't really got an opinion on the bear hunt, but it will get more dangerous here, as we have more and more tourists doing who knows what with the bears. People feeding bears is an almost death sentence for the bear and maybe the next human to come along and not feed him. I kinda like the feeling of being in the wild and not at the top of the food chain, I like the fear, and have wondered what it will be like when the bear chomps on my head. I carry pepper spray, air horn and sometimes lead spray, though I know I couldn't hit a charging grizzly. There was a movement here when the lottery for the grizzly tags went public this summer,  and people applied who weren't going to kill the bear, only take photos. Jane Goodall was one who applied. I can see all the points on this, yet haven't quite made an opinion. Sorry for the long post. 

[lannarebirth]

On 9/25/2018 at 9:54 AM, Langsuan Man said:

                                       

 

                                      Arm the Bears

 

Well yeah, you could try that. Better yet, disarm the hunters. If they really want to hunt, let's make it a fairer match. Let'em use their hands and feet and mouthes, same as their would be prey.

[Wake Up]

17 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Me, too.  In about 25 visits to Yellowstone, many while living in Wyoming, I saw exactly 3 grizzly bears, a sow and 2 cubs.  And that was outside the park off the road from Cody.

 

I don't hunt, in spite of owning many firearms that I love shooting at targets.  I'm not fundamentally against hunting, since a lot of critters like deer and wild hogs are becoming a nuisance.  But to kill something as rare as a bear or a cougar for sport is basically stealing from everyone who would have been awed by the sight of those critters over the rest of their lifespan.  

 

I hunted when I was younger- never very successfully, never for big game, and never for trophies I wasn't going to eat.  But I gave it up when I became old enough the realize that life is precious.  I guess some people never have that revelation.

 

 

You lived in one of the most beautiful places on earth and got to enjoy one of the most beautiful national parks in the world. To see grizzlies in the wild is wonderful and like you implied you don’t get the chance to see them very often. I love Yellowstone and hope the USA keeps it wild and beautiful.  Was happy when the wolves returned and have yet to see a wolf pack in the wild but hope to one day. 

[impulse]

7 minutes ago, Wake Up said:

You lived in one of the most beautiful places on earth and got to enjoy one of the most beautiful national parks in the world. To see grizzlies in the wild is wonderful and like you implied you don’t get the chance to see them very often. I love Yellowstone and hope the USA keeps it wild and beautiful.  Was happy when the wolves returned and have yet to see a wolf pack in the wild but hope to one day. 

 

One of my favorite times was the cold autumn morning I was woken up by the wolves howling right near the campsite.  It was in bear country, so there was no tent camping allowed.  I was snoozing on a cot in my van...  They were close, and very loud.  Unforgettable.

 

BTW, for anyone interested, the story of lake trout and elk in Yellowstone is a fascinating one.  I'm not going to spoil it, but there are several excellent YouTubes on the topic.

 

Edited September 27, 2018 by impulse

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

8 hours ago, Ahab said:

In the USA the single largest contributor to wildlife conservation comes from fees for hunting (to the tune of 86 million dollars each and every year).  Plus an 11% tax on all gun and ammunition purchases which goes toward wildlife conservation.  There are also numerous hunting organizations in the US that devote thousands of hours to habitat restoration to ensure that animal populations remain at healthy levels. Well regulated wildlife management means that herds of deer and other animals do not starve to death over the winters.

 

Conservation minded hunters have done more to help wildlife populations than any other segment of society. Contrary to popular belief, regulated hunting does not cause wildlife to become endangered or extinct. In fact, many species exist today only because of the efforts and commitment of responsible, respectful hunters.

 

So while the vegans and PETA people talk a good story, the people who hunt are doing more for conservation than all the do-gooders combined. 

 

Fine, then go hunt species that aren't endangered and/or rare...  Go for the squirrels or the pidgeons, you'll get your hunting rush, and nature will be protected. Plus they're a lot smaller than grizzly bears and thus presumably more of a hunting challenge to actually hit.

 

[impulse]

8 hours ago, Ahab said:

Death is a part of life. No one is happy to die unless there is great pain involved. I tend to not hang out with wild animals that can kill me, so it is unlikely to occur. Using your logic do you think a deer would prefer a rifle shot through the heart and a sudden death due to hunting, or being torn apart and eaten alive by a pack of hungry wolves, slowly over tens of minutes.

 

In the end dead is dead, make sure the meat is used and not wasted.

 

What you're missing is that predators cull the sick, the weak and the genetically inferior, improving the health of the herd.  Hunters focus on exactly the opposite. 

 

A better question would be whether a disease ridden, parasite infected sick critter would rather die a lingering death, suffering for weeks, or be killed in minutes by a predator.  Of course, trophy hunters don't generally put the sick out of their misery.  They go for the best looking and best genetics.  Taking that superior DNA out of the gene pool.

 

Edit: And don't dare come back about the $$$$ hunting ranches that charge $50,000 for bucks with huge racks.  That's one of the things that turned me off to hunting.  Feed 'em.  Feed 'em.  Feed 'em.  The next time they come to eat.... BAM.  Great sport...

 

 

Edited September 27, 2018 by impulse

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And right on cue, the right-wing Republicans in Congress have mounted a new effort to gut the federal Endangered Species Act.

 

Quote

Congress seeks species law changes after grizzly hunt barred

BILLINGS, Mont. (AP) -- Galvanized by court rulings protecting grizzly bears and gray wolves, Congressional Republicans on Wednesday pushed sweeping changes to the Endangered Species Act despite strong objections from Democrats and wildlife advocates who called the effort a "wildlife extinction package."

Republicans began with a morning vote in the House Natural Resource Committee to strip protections from gray wolves across the contiguous U.S.  Courts restored safeguards for wolves in the Great Lakes region in 2014, frustrating states that had been allowing hunts to control wolf populations.

Later Wednesday, lawmakers took up changes to the endangered species law itself, with a suite of bills that supporters said would make the law work better and eliminate obstacles to economic progress.  Critics said the measures weaken the law by shifting power to state and local governments and away from federal scientists.

 

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/blocked-us-grizzly-hunts-fuel-call-changes-law-063028171.html

 

Edited September 27, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[giddyup]

On 9/26/2018 at 7:56 AM, Ahab said:

Hunting is done for meat. People eat meat, unless you are a vegan. The pleasure is being in the outdoors and in nature. Hunters do not kill and then walk away from the carcass. After shooting an animal it must be gutted and carried out of the area and then packaged for consumption. A person that eats meat and is against hunting is a hypocrite because they pay for other people to kill the meat that they eat. Humans have hunted since there have been humans.

 

Do people eat bear meat, or is it just the skin and head that's taken as a trophy?

[impulse]

23 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Do people eat bear meat, or is it just the skin and head that's taken as a trophy?

 

People do eat bear meat.  But even with tasty critters like deer, elk and moose, a lot depends on how far they have to pack out the meat.  If it's miles away from a road, they may just keep the skin, head and paws as trophies and leave the meat behind.  With antlered animals, they may just pack out the head or even just the horns.  Or they may pack out as much meat as they can carry out in one trip- by horse or on foot.

 

And, people also eat gorilla meat.  But that doesn't make it okay to shoot gorillas.

 

Edited September 27, 2018 by impulse

[sukhumvitneon]

18 hours ago, Wake Up said:

I have camped at Yellowstone and completely disagree with your comments and assertions. Black bears like to eat human food and that is why it is restricted in how you keep food at Yellowstone campsites.   Grizzlies don’t attack campers for food and if a grizzly did attack you it would be because you threatened it by getting to close. Of course you can protect your family and self from an attack by any animal. In Yellowstone they have bear spray that you can buy that will repeal the grizzly and black bear so you don’t have to blow away any animal. Have you ever camped out at Yellowstone?

Yes.  Have you ever camped out in Alaska or other remote areas?

[giddyup]

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

And, people also eat gorilla meat.  But that doesn't make it okay to shoot gorillas.

 

Agreed. My response was to the poster who suggested that if you are a meat eater it's basically OK to shoot anything as long as you eat it. I doubt that many hunters take home a grizzly to eat.

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

People do eat bear meat.  But even with tasty critters like deer, elk and moose, a lot depends on how far they have to pack out the meat.  If it's miles away from a road, they may just keep the skin, head and paws as trophies and leave the meat behind.  With antlered animals, they may just pack out the head or even just the horns.  Or they may pack out as much meat as they can carry out in one trip- by horse or on foot.

 

And, people also eat gorilla meat.  But that doesn't make it okay to shoot gorillas.

 

In most states in the USA (possibly all) it is illegal to shoot an animal and leave the meat. I do not know of any state that allows leaving the meat of the animal after shooting during a hunt.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Agreed. My response was to the poster who suggested that if you are a meat eater it's basically OK to shoot anything as long as you eat it. I doubt that many hunters take home a grizzly to eat.

You would be wrong. The reason people hunt is to eat the meat. You pay for a bear tag, because you want to hunt and eat bear meat.

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Fine, then go hunt species that aren't endangered and/or rare...  Go for the squirrels or the pidgeons, you'll get your hunting rush, and nature will be protected. Plus they're a lot smaller than grizzly bears and thus presumably more of a hunting challenge to actually hit.

 

Hunting of endangered or rare species is not allowed anywhere in the USA. Hunting is used as a game management tool to keep the populations healthy. The grizzlies are no longer listed as endangered or threatened in Yellowstone which is why they could now be hunted (until the court ruling which will be appealed).

[giddyup]

9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You would be wrong. The reason people hunt is to eat the meat. You pay for a bear tag, because you want to hunt and eat bear meat.

Tell me how you lug a 500lb grizzly back to your car if you shoot it 20 (or 5 or 10) klms away? Or do you just cut off a prime piece and leave the rest?

Edited September 27, 2018 by giddyup

[Ahab]

I am not now a hunter, but I have hunted in the past but it really isn't my thing. I enjoy fishing, and eat any fish I take. Most of the posters so far on this link seem to be completely clueless on hunting regulations or practices in the USA, but this doesn't preclude offering non-expert opinions on the topic.

[sukhumvitneon]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I am not now a hunter, but I have hunted in the past but it really isn't my thing. I enjoy fishing, and eat any fish I take. Most of the posters so far on this link seem to be completely clueless on hunting regulations or practices in the USA, but this doesn't preclude offering non-expert opinions on the topic.

Most people in this thread are Brit/EU citizens with a bone to pick with the US, specifically with its gun laws.  Knowledge of hunting, trapping, fishing, or furtaking are secondary.

[Ahab]

Just now, giddyup said:

Tell me how you lug a 500lb grizzly back to your car if you shoot it 20 klms away?

You would piece out the animal into smaller pieces so you could haul it out, or you don't shoot an animal that large that far away, unless you want a workout. Another option would be to drive a 4x4 or some other off road vehicle in to where the animal was shot. Hunters I know don't take shots where the recovery is too difficult or not possible.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, Ahab said:

Hunting of endangered or rare species is not allowed anywhere in the USA. Hunting is used as a game management tool to keep the populations healthy. The grizzlies are no longer listed as endangered or threatened in Yellowstone which is why they could now be hunted (until the court ruling which will be appealed).

 

First, according to the news report, the judge in this case overruled the federal agency's decision to strip the bears of their endangered species protection. So, contrary to what you write, yes, they ARE still listed as an endangered species in Yellowstone.

 

Second, whether a species is listed an endangered or not should be based on science and biology. But instead, it's become a partisan political decision where too many gun and hunting nuts could care less about the actual biology situation on the ground as long as they're allowed to hunt and kill.

 

There are Republicans in Congress, as the news report I posed above above alludes to, who would probably abolish the Endangered Species Act if they could get away with it. Your argument is hollow and unconvincing.
 

Quote

 

Christensen [the judge] also found that the Fish and Wildlife Service had failed to apply the best available science, as required under the law, in evaluating continued threats to grizzly populations, including limitations in its genetic diversity.

 

The judge pointed to two studies cited by the agency that he said actually contradicted the government's own conclusions that the Yellowstone grizzlies could remain independent and genetically self-sufficient. In his 47-page opinion, Christensen called the agency's reasoning "illogical."