Asian Roads 014 Idiot on red light

[tonboy]

2 hours ago, ujayujay said:

I note, not the Motobike driver is a Idiot. You are wrong because you turn right. If you cross a Lane you have to be sure there is free.

in every country traffic that is turning have to give away to traffic that is going straight accross the crossing. It doesn't matter that the traffic ligth is red. The person on the motorbike could get a penalty for this, but you are wrong due to the fact you did not give away. 

[Estrada]

The light had already counted down to zero and you had to wait 41 seconds, so you should not have jumped the lights.

[DJ54]

Video doesn’t show enough to make an opinion. Not knowing what the oncoming traffic lights show. Yellow doesn’t mean stop.

[KMartinHandyman]

Soooooo, he entered at the red light and Red means what? Hurry X2, close your eyes and hope for the best?

You’re admitting you were in the box under the red. Personally I would ask the mods to close this topic and delete the video.

[catman20]

i would say bikes fault he jumped the lights

[Aussieroaming]

Both at fault for not heeding an amber light, you more so because you turned across on-coming traffic. 

[Russell17au]

The seconds counter next to the lights show that you entered that intersection on a yellow light and then proceeded to turn right across the path of the bike.

There are 3 things that you failed to do:

1: you failed to read the counter and see that you would enter the intersection on a yellow.

2: you entered the intersection on a yellow light

3: you turned across the path of an oncoming vehicle

You are at fault

[Formaleins]

On 9/29/2018 at 5:03 PM, JaiMaai said:

You turned in front of an oncoming vehicle. You should have waited until you were 100% sure the road was clear.

 

(This assumes that the light was green when you crossed the stop line)

 

That is the one that will get him for sure!  The law is pretty much the same in that respect when you get an idiot coming at you head on on the wrong side of the road. The law saya that you must pull as far to the left as possible. It is like a lot of the laws here, they are open to interpretation and abuse. Which leaves a lot of wriggle room for the police to support their favourite. As far as this video goes, I think even in the UK the car is at fault for turning across the path of the oncoming bike, not much wriggle room here.

[HHTel]

1 hour ago, DJ54 said:

Video doesn’t show enough to make an opinion. Not knowing what the oncoming traffic lights show. Yellow doesn’t mean stop.

Not sure where you got that from but the underlined section afaik is wrong.

 

For example:

 

“If you do stop, ensure that there isn't someone too close behind you as this will cause an incident. Be aware that not stopping at an amber light is still a punishable offence,”

 

“Steady yellow lights signal that the light will turn red soon. So, you must either come to a safe stop before the crosswalk, or, if you can't stop safely, proceed with caution through the intersection before the light turns red. “

 

“Amber means ‘Stop’ at the stop line. You may go on only if the Amber appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident.”

 

“AMBER means STOP

at the stop line.

You may only go on if the

AMBER appears after you

have crossed the stop line

or are so close to it that

to pull up might cause

an accident.”

 

“Drivers are required to stop when the traffic light at an intersection changes from solid green to solid amber, but there are exceptions to this very simple rule.

 

If a driver is already in the intersection or so close as to be unable to stop safely when the solid amber light appears, it is proper to proceed through the intersection.”

 

 

Of course there are hundreds more.

[Dene16]

3 hours ago, HHTel said:

Amber light means STOP IF SAFE TO DO SO

Exactly first correct answer, but aren't the lights on the opposite side of the junction? Or is there other lights (on the reverse of the lights we are looking at) that have already turned red

He has already passed the traffic light/stop ( above himself) before it turns red (therefore on an amber)and the timer becomes visible but this is only  visible from people from the other direction?

As the timer has started he would be moving into a junction with moving traffic so surely has to be at fault.

As we all know as soon as the timer starts Thais shoot off on their motorcycles

In light of this both have to share blame as the OP needs to make sure it is safe to turn before doing so and the speed the motorcycle was travelling dictated that it was not.

 

 

[DinoSabanovic]

This is unreal how many of you attacking me. LOL. I understand that I have to stop but, I was in the intersection already, NOT at the line behind. Also he didn't slow down and stop. He had at least 5 seconds to see yellow and stop before intersection and entered at the RED. How is that my fault? He can just go across? It makes no sense. I do admit that I was wrong by not stopping tho but this makes no difference here.

So by reading comments, this means that regardless of traffic light I can just go straight across at the red and it's not my fault... How can one know will the other stop or pass on the red? what'a joke.

[DinoSabanovic]

1 hour ago, Dene16 said:

Exactly first correct answer, but aren't the lights on the opposite side of the junction? Or is there other lights (on the reverse of the lights we are looking at) that have already turned red

He has already passed the traffic light/stop ( above himself) before it turns red (therefore on an amber)and the timer becomes visible but this is only  visible from people from the other direction?

As the timer has started he would be moving into a junction with moving traffic so surely has to be at fault.

As we all know as soon as the timer starts Thais shoot off on their motorcycles

In light of this both have to share blame as the OP needs to make sure it is safe to turn before doing so and the speed the motorcycle was travelling dictated that it was not.

 

 

Finally a normal answer. Opposite sides have the same colors. This means when one have red, other side in the opposite direction. All vehicles that are in the intersection have to pass before lanes with green light can go. He clearly should have stopped. And given the situation of only few milliseconds when he entered the red light and me not sopping we both should share penalty. There is no way it 100% my fault. 

[DinoSabanovic]

1 hour ago, HHTel said:

Not sure where you got that from but the underlined section afaik is wrong.

 

For example:

 

“If you do stop, ensure that there isn't someone too close behind you as this will cause an incident. Be aware that not stopping at an amber light is still a punishable offence,”

 

“Steady yellow lights signal that the light will turn red soon. So, you must either come to a safe stop before the crosswalk, or, if you can't stop safely, proceed with caution through the intersection before the light turns red. “

 

“Amber means ‘Stop’ at the stop line. You may go on only if the Amber appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident.”

 

“AMBER means STOP

at the stop line.

You may only go on if the

AMBER appears after you

have crossed the stop line

or are so close to it that

to pull up might cause

an accident.”

 

“Drivers are required to stop when the traffic light at an intersection changes from solid green to solid amber, but there are exceptions to this very simple rule.

 

If a driver is already in the intersection or so close as to be unable to stop safely when the solid amber light appears, it is proper to proceed through the intersection.”

 

 

Of course there are hundreds more.

So, why you blaming me and not a motorbike? How is he different? Oh, I know. I'm farang.

[simoh1490]

27 minutes ago, DinoSabanovic said:

This is unreal how many of you attacking me. LOL. I understand that I have to stop but, I was in the intersection already, NOT at the line behind. Also he didn't slow down and stop. He had at least 5 seconds to see yellow and stop before intersection and entered at the RED. How is that my fault? He can just go across? It makes no sense. I do admit that I was wrong by not stopping tho but this makes no difference here.

So by reading comments, this means that regardless of traffic light I can just go straight across at the red and it's not my fault... How can one know will the other stop or pass on the red? what'a joke.

You may have been in the intersection already but you didn't have to turn, it was your choice and you chose poorly. Again, regardless of whether the motorbike was breaking the law or not, it was in your power to prevent that accident and you didn't....this is not about attacking you it's about declaring who was right and who was wrong which is what you asked us to do at the outset.

[HHTel]

24 minutes ago, DinoSabanovic said:

Opposite sides have the same colors.

That's not always true.  There are main road intersections here that has green going north and red going south and vice versa so you can't know for sure what light the oncoming traffic is seeing.

 

 

21 minutes ago, DinoSabanovic said:

So, why you blaming me and not a motorbike? How is he different? Oh, I know. I'm farang.

I wasn't blaming anyone in that particular post.  I was correcting an earlier poster who said that amber doesn't mean 'STOP' but to 'proceed with caution'.  However, I did say in an earlier post that regardless of whether the motorbike jumped a red light or not, you should have taken more care as you were already facing a red light.

[greenmonkey]

2 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

You may have been in the intersection already but you didn't have to turn, it was your choice and you chose poorly. Again, regardless of whether the motorbike was breaking the law or not, it was in your power to prevent that accident and you didn't....this is not about attacking you it's about declaring who was right and who was wrong which is what you asked us to do at the outset.

sorry OP I agree with these sentiments 100%. It's not an attack on you - I think you have been lucky that this guy was not seriously hurt and should just learn from the experience. Driving in Thailand is NOT easy. A lot of drivers do not care for the rules or their own safety so you need to be on your guard at all times. Regardless of whether another driver has broken the rules - if you can taken action  (without endangering yourself or others around you) that will ensure an accident does not occur then that is your responsibility to do that. I think that this is the message most are trying to convey on here.

[oldlakey]

12 hours ago, jackdd said:

As others said already, both of you are wrong, he didn't stop at the red traffic light, but you crossed his lane where he had the right of way

In Thailand you should not think that just because the traffic light for him is red he will always stop, especially if it just changed to red.

Well at least it has not troubled the scorer, no increase on 25,000 plus dead this time

[Russell17au]

1 hour ago, DinoSabanovic said:

This is unreal how many of you attacking me. LOL. I understand that I have to stop but, I was in the intersection already, NOT at the line behind. Also he didn't slow down and stop. He had at least 5 seconds to see yellow and stop before intersection and entered at the RED. How is that my fault? He can just go across? It makes no sense. I do admit that I was wrong by not stopping tho but this makes no difference here.

So by reading comments, this means that regardless of traffic light I can just go straight across at the red and it's not my fault... How can one know will the other stop or pass on the red? what'a joke.

The green light has a green counter numbers and when the light changes to yellow those numbers change to yellow and the count goes from 5 back to 0 and when it is 0 then the light changes to red. You failed to read the numbers on the counter and you entered the intersection on a yellow light as is clearly seen by the yellow numbers starting at 3 and going down to 0 then the red light. You started the video when the yellow number 3 was showing and you had only just entered the intersection, so you were trying to also beat the lights. You should have seen those numbers and stopped before you entered the intersection on a yellow light. You asked everybody to comment and now you do not like the comments that have been made.

[chang1]

What do I think?

You need your eyesight testing. It was obvious that the bike was not stopping yet you drove into his path. The bike did nothing unusual for Thai riders and you should have been prepared for, or even expected, him to not stop. If you are a regular driver in LOS, I do not understand why you think anyone would think you were driving with the due care and attention required.

[jackdd]

2 hours ago, DinoSabanovic said:

How is that my fault? He can just go across? It makes no sense.

I think nobody here said that it is just your fault, the motorbike was clearly wrong by crossing the red light. But your situation is definitely a situation which you see in Thailand all the time, and you could have prevented it if you had paid more attention to the motorbike, so you get blamed for it by the people here

[thailand49]

You are looking for a western answer but here although the laws are very similar they are applied differently " This is Thailand theory "  that you being larger should look after me? My theory, what I learned and apply defense, defense and more defense as to not put myself in a situation as you are in now.  Never demand right away just let them have it whenever possible which in this situation you could have?

Here one of the best simple defensive things you could do is when the light change wait a few seconds until all is cleared regardless of who is right or wrong and proceed that very few second is what is killing thousands of motorbikes drivers. Learn their bad habits and incorporate it into your defensive driving and you will be happier each day.

[richard_smith237]

Op entered the junction on an Amber light, which means, stop if safe to do so. 

It may not have been save to stop so sharply, so I don't think the Op is in the wrong for entering the junction. 

 

The Op passed across oncomming traffic. Here, the Op is in the wrong and turned when the road was not clear to do so. 

 

The Motorcycle jumped the red light. Or, rather, from the video and having familiarity with such junctions the lights are synchronized. 

 

I think its a fair assumption that the Motorcycle jumped the lights.

 

 

As with the majority of accidents here, two people in the wrong have caused an accident. 

 

Pretty much par for the course here... the op did nothing excessive or terrible, he'd getting a hard time for a traffic blunder...  IMO responsibility for the accident is 50/50.

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

And to add.... The motorcycle was particularly dumb. 

 

When I'm on my motorcycle, cars pulling across the front of me and forcing me to brake is a daily occurrence... It is expected that a car will pull out across a motorcycle here - how this motorcyclist didn't assume so shows the pure inattention to ones own safety riders have here in Thailand.

 

 

[chang1]

3 minutes ago, thailand49 said:

You are looking for a western answer but here although the laws are very similar they are applied differently " This is Thailand theory "  that you being larger should look after me? My theory, what I learned and apply defense, defense and more defense as to not put myself in a situation as you are in now.  Never demand right away just let them have it whenever possible which in this situation you could have?

Here one of the best simple defensive things you could do is when the light change wait a few seconds until all is cleared regardless of who is right or wrong and proceed that very few second is what is killing thousands of motorbikes drivers. Learn their bad habits and incorporate it into your defensive driving and you will be happier each day.

It's the same answer no matter which country. As has already been noted here, the car driver has no way of knowing what lights are on the other side when the bike went through. They could have changed the light sequence that day even. Always give way to oncoming traffic when turning right, lights or no lights makes no difference. If there was a right turn filter light then he would have right of way but should still be cautious especially in LOS. Totally agree about defensive driving - never be in a hurry, a few seconds could save a life. Not only are Thai drivers/riders sub standard but so are the roads, lights, signals, road markings and layout often badly designed or maintained. eg. U turn lanes on dual carriageways - utterly bonkers.

[Just Weird]

10 hours ago, DinoSabanovic said:

I get that but he entered in the RED light not, amber. I saw the original video frame by frame and he had at least 3 meters before the line. Red means stop. I't doesn't matter what is happening in the intersection... or does it?

And I was in the intersection already, not behind the line.

So... Let me get this straight. For example now, I'm going straight and I have a red light. If I hit the driver who is going right it's his fault because he didn't give way? Is that what you saying?

Or I should stop in the middle of the intersection and block the traffic?

I'm saying exactly what I said! 

 

It looks as though you went through on amber, if you did, you shouldn't have.  Your video doesn't show the light on his side of the junction, does it? 

 

Maybe you can post the previous part of the video showing you having the green light?

[chang1]

8 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I think its a fair assumption that the Motorcycle jumped the lights.

 

 

Big difference between an assumption and knowing when peoples lives are involved. OK for us to make that assumption when looking at a video at our leisure but not for a driver approaching any traffic lights especially without a filter light. Many lights are faulty in LOS and with the very dark window and visor tints used, people can easily not see there is a junction. The highly visible countdown lights are great though, wish we had them in the UK.

As for scoring - 20/80 bike/car. Biker impatient (normal), car driver can easily see the bike was not stopping so should have assumed he had right of way and let him through.

 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, chang1 said:

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

I think its a fair assumption that the Motorcycle jumped the lights.

 

 

Big difference between an assumption and knowing when peoples lives are involved. OK for us to make that assumption when looking at a video at our leisure but not for a driver approaching any traffic lights especially without a filter light. Many lights are faulty in LOS and with the very dark window and visor tints used, people can easily not see there is a junction. The highly visible countdown lights are great though, wish we had them in the UK.

As for scoring - 20/80 bike/car. Biker impatient (normal), car driver can easily see the bike was not stopping so should have assumed he had right of way and let him through.

 

When approaching traffic lights, its a safe assumption that scores of vehicles will jump the lights a number of seconds after the light has turned red... 

... When riding my motorcycle its a safe assumption that a car will turn across my path...  I don't know they will, but I assume they might...

 

All par for the course in Thailand... 

 

In this case...  we don't know the bike jumped the light and can only judge on experience and probability given our experience. Without further proof we can only speculate.

 

I'd speculate that the bike went through a red light. I speculate that it was too late for the car to stop at the lights as it changed to amber. I can see the car cut across the bike. 

 

If this were 'car on car' one car turns right, another coming towards him jumps the light they collide... 50/50...  50% blame on the vehicle jumping the light, 50% blame on the vehicle committed to turning right when the road was not 100% clear and he assumed the bike would stop for the light. 

 

Just because a motorcycle was involved I don't think fault is diminished for jumping the light (if it could be proven). 

 

What about turning left??? - the amount of times I am about to turn left and have to emergency brake for the motorcycle riding down the pavement and across my path, or the motorcycle cutting up my inside.... On both occasions the road is not 100% clear to make the maneuver... however, IMO the motorcycle would clearly be 100% to blame in these scenarios...

 

Thus, It could be argued that in jumping the lights (if the motorcycle actually did jump the lights) that the motorcycle is primarily to blame... 

 

All in all, this is an interesting debate on the varying options of road users.... 

[Enoon]

 

Never mind about the lights or the law.

 

Your correct perception of the evolving dynamic and its potential should have told you what to do.

 

No way would I be turning into the path of a vehicle that far away which was approaching at that speed.

 

You do what is safe.....not what you think is legal.

 

That's roadcraft.

 

 

 

[oldlakey]

5 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

When approaching traffic lights, its a safe assumption that scores of vehicles will jump the lights a number of seconds after the light has turned red... 

... When riding my motorcycle its a safe assumption that a car will turn across my path...  I don't know they will, but I assume they might...

 

All par for the course in Thailand... 

 

In this case...  we don't know the bike jumped the light and can only judge on experience and probability given our experience. Without further proof we can only speculate.

 

I'd speculate that the bike went through a red light. I speculate that it was too late for the car to stop at the lights as it changed to amber. I can see the car cut across the bike. 

 

If this were 'car on car' one car turns right, another coming towards him jumps the light they collide... 50/50...  50% blame on the vehicle jumping the light, 50% blame on the vehicle committed to turning right when the road was not 100% clear and he assumed the bike would stop for the light. 

 

Just because a motorcycle was involved I don't think fault is diminished for jumping the light (if it could be proven). 

 

What about turning left??? - the amount of times I am about to turn left and have to emergency brake for the motorcycle riding down the pavement and across my path, or the motorcycle cutting up my inside.... On both occasions the road is not 100% clear to make the maneuver... however, IMO the motorcycle would clearly be 100% to blame in these scenarios...

 

Thus, It could be argued that in jumping the lights (if the motorcycle actually did jump the lights) that the motorcycle is primarily to blame... 

 

All in all, this is an interesting debate on the varying options of road users.... 

The only option is to use your brain, then some people would live to drive / ride another day 

[steve73]

Just a follow up to my previous post, but as a warning to the OP & perhaps others.  I see more and more of the traffic lights in T/L changing their sequence from "opposites" (where opposing traffic both see a red or green, and which the OP clearly assumed was the case here) to "individual", where each approaching road has it's own green light (or sometimes just the "main" road has individual greens, whilst the minor roads both have greens together).

 

Since you cannot (or are not supposed to) see the lights for the other approaches, you should act on only what you see.... BUT still be prepared to meet someone else who believes themselves to be invincible (like perhaps the motorcyclist in the OP).

 

I once entered a junction on green, waiting to turn right, but oncoming traffic kept jumping their red preventing me from completing my turn.  Meanwhile the side roads had started moving forwards on their own green, again preventing me from completing my turn.  I was clearly blocking traffic from both sides, causing them to maneuver around me, but no-one would stop and allow me to complete my turn and clear the junction.  Better to remain still until someone actually stopped and clearly allowed me to move... It was not a pleasant situation, since although I was clearly in the wrong, I actually done nothing illegal.  Some junctions now have the "cross-hatching" to indicate "do not enter until your exit is clear", but as is usual in T/L the paint is often too faded to see.

 

One further point to note is that many of the traffic lights in the quieter provinces and late at night, change from "sequenced" to continually flashing red and amber.  In this case, flashing amber is on the main roads, and indicates "proceed with caution", whilst the flashing red on the side roads mean "stop, and then proceed with caution". Of course,  the "invincibles" here don't stop (or even slow down) in any direction, and so even if you are on the main road (amber) you should expect some idiot to cross immediately in front of you.

 

And finally, as traffic here becomes heavier, and more traffic lights are installed, there are more that will fail (and being what it is, will probably not get repaired for many months).  Traffic lights should always be regarded as "advisory" rather than "proscribed".

 

Just remember drive - "All other road users are trying to kill you!"  You may even be crossing on a green light, and meet the OP turning in front of you, believing himself to be "in the right".