Thaksin Moving To Australia?!?!

[Grover]

I think its completely reasonable to say the coup has more than majority support (in the sense they are supporting not necessarily the end of the Thaksin regime but relief from the end of fierce national division brought to boiling point - which was ENDED by the coup).

Without trying to be rude younghusband, I believe most Thais would not agree with your (for reasons probably unknown to both of us) unsubstantiated subjective conclusions.

I think you have a serious misconception of the coup, and what comprises national division in Thailand. There are many layers of reality here, and the divisions in society are multifold.

About the national division:

yes. divisions in any society are multifold like you point out. However I was specifically referring to the "fierce national division brought to boiling point" - an extreme and dangerous nation-wide tension which was completely in a class of its own.

Presently the stage is set for something possibly very ugly again.

Perhaps, but that is only one of many possibilities at this stage. The ugliness right before the coup was a dangerous reality.

[Jai Dee]

Nice to see that we're finally getting back on topic...

[ColPyat]

Opposing mobs brought to boiling point and with no avenues of communication/expression left need very little to erupt into violence. History has shown not to underestimate the dangerous & unpredictable potential of an angry Thai mob.

This type of mob doesn't necessarily need violence provoking ringleaders - intense collective frustration leading to collective aggression is more than enough. Organised ringleaders (a possibility) would be only be the petrol on the fire.

IMO many Thais could sense this danger and thus were extremely relieved when the tension (which extended further than the mobs) was broken by the coup.

Sorry, but if you look at Thai history, each such political mob violence was orchestrated and highly organised, nothing unpredictable about it. And at that time there were no "opposing" mobs, there was the PAD, and nobody else other than the rumors about armed forest rangers. The 'Caravan of the Poor' at that time has also already left orderly back into their villages.

In case of such violence the job of police and army, both trained in riot control, would have been to keep the mobs from each other, and not to stage a coup (which was also long planned, and not a reaction to save the country from potential large scale mob violence).

Many Thais supporting the coup were reacting to carefully spread rumors, and not real events. There is no evidence of any organised (or disorganised) attempt of violence by any side at the time of the coup. Well, other than that the army staged a coup, which in itself, even without anybody injured, is an act of violence against democracy and at the time of the event - clearly unconstitutional, and therefore illegal.

Edited February 19, 2007 by ColPyat

[Tony Clifton]

In case of such violence the job of police and army, both trained in riot control, would have been to keep the mobs from each other,

]

Considering they have been intentionally botching investigations up until days ago, for the most part, the police would have acted the same way they did at Central Plaza which basically consists of doing nothing, letting brother, classmate, almighty Pol Lt. Col. Thaksin have his way. There probably would have been clashes between army and police as well. Bloodshed wasn't only a risk between protesters. Luckily, the boys in brown were also caught with their pants down on Sep. 19 along with Thaksin.

Edited February 19, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[Plus]

At the time of the coup PAD wasn't there, they just planned to resume their rallies and it would have taken at least a month for numbers to swell to March figures. A couple of hundred armed forest rangers would have been enough to cause mayhem. Army was in the barracks, not in the streets, only police were "policing" - making up fake bomb stories and beating up protesters themselves.

Lack of official prosecution of "ringleaders" has to be expected - afterall even planning to blow up Center World Plaza is not illegal in itself by Thai laws. They can't charge forest rangers for receiving weapons training, and they won't waste time on this.

Original polls about coup approval were in 80% range and were consistent with what I and lots of other people thought was the situation on the ground - families, offices, etc. No one I know questioned the numbers. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that the approval ratings were reverse. Even most vocal TRT leaders didn't question them, their spokespeople, their lawyers - no one suggested polls were rigged, even coup critics who were given media exposure. Speaking of actuall anti-coup numbers - anti coup protests were declared illegal but were allowed to proceed, every weekend (check with Colpyat for the schedule). They attract only two-three hundred people and only Constitution Day rally had seen a relatively big turnout and it has fizzled again since.

There's not a shred of evidence that "most Thais opposed the coup" just as there's no shred of evidence that "middle classes (with parents still living upcountry) hate and detest poor farmers". I have no idea why people choose to believe this nonsense.

>>>>>>>>>

I don't quite understand "lack of formal education" charge against forum members. In my field what is considered "cutting edge" in peoples' first year becomes obsolete by the time they graduate. What I learned some twenty years ago is completely irrelevant today. There's no "formal education" in what we discuss here at all.

[ColPyat]

In case of such violence the job of police and army, both trained in riot control, would have been to keep the mobs from each other,

]

Considering they have been intentionally botching investigations up until days ago, for the most part, the police would have acted the same way they did at Central Plaza which basically consists of doing nothing, letting brother, classmate, almighty Pol Lt. Col. Thaksin have his way. There probably would have been clashes between army and police as well. Bloodshed wasn't only a risk between protesters. Luckily, the boys in brown were also caught with their pants down on Sep. 19 along with Thaksin.

The police would have acted exactly the same way they have acted during all the other demonstrations - with utmost restraint, no weapons on display, and discussing every move with the PAD leaders. Don't forget - the Central World incident was in close vicinity of the PM, which in every country is a security nightmare. This is not to be seen as an example of the otherwise exemplary and professional work of the police during the PAD demonstrations in Bangkok.

There were many situations where things could have easily gone out of hand, but were not mostly because of the coolheaded leadership of Pol. Maj. Gen. Pramoj Pathumwong, who was in charge of the demonstrations.

Don't forget - there were months of demonstrations with hardly any serious incident. Nobody dead, or seriously injured. This, i think, is for Thailand unique, and also not many other countries can pride themselves of such an achievement.

[younghusband]

Simply saying most Thais didn't oppose the coup doesn't make it so.If you talk to any Thai or foreign journalist they will tell you the majority opposed the coup.You can however keep on repeating the mantra - and I'm sure you will - but it still won't be true.Having said that, most Thais are realists and are resigned to what happened.I don't see any march on Bangkok happening any time soon.

I'm sorry for having made the dig at those without formal education: it was patronising and I apologise.However before we drop the subject let me clarify that the issue is not what one learns or didn't learn at university, or subsequently forgot.The issue is intellectual rigour and it is all too easy to see in this forum who posseses it and who doesn't.It doesn't mean that those who lack it have nothing useful to say but the force of argument is more compelling if deployed with the benefit of having learned how to think.The stuffier academics at Cambridge used to make a distinction between trained and untrained minds.But the forum is a broad house and there will always be a place for everybody, even those who like to make their points by putting "amusing" pictures together or raising the same issue over and over and over again.

[ColPyat]

At the time of the coup PAD wasn't there, they just planned to resume their rallies and it would have taken at least a month for numbers to swell to March figures. A couple of hundred armed forest rangers would have been enough to cause mayhem. Army was in the barracks, not in the streets, only police were "policing" - making up fake bomb stories and beating up protesters themselves.

And the barracks are spread all over the town here in Bangkok, special forces were on constant alert during these months. There is no shred of evidence that forest rangers have been planning to descend to Bangkok to cause mayhem.

Lack of official prosecution of "ringleaders" has to be expected - afterall even planning to blow up Center World Plaza is not illegal in itself by Thai laws. They can't charge forest rangers for receiving weapons training, and they won't waste time on this.

I would like to see proof of your claim that planning to blow Central World Plaza is not illegal, please.

And forest rangers very well need proper weapons training in Thailand, and they need weapons. Poaching, illegal logging and drug smuggling is a serious problem in Thailand. many of the culprits are armed. Sending unarmed and untrained forest rangers out to do their duty is unresponsible.

Original polls about coup approval were in 80% range and were consistent with what I and lots of other people thought was the situation on the ground - families, offices, etc. No one I know questioned the numbers. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that the approval ratings were reverse. Even most vocal TRT leaders didn't question them, their spokespeople, their lawyers - no one suggested polls were rigged, even coup critics who were given media exposure. Speaking of actuall anti-coup numbers - anti coup protests were declared illegal but were allowed to proceed, every weekend (check with Colpyat for the schedule). They attract only two-three hundred people and only Constitution Day rally had seen a relatively big turnout and it has fizzled again since.

Nobody could question the results because we had martial law. And now is still an atmosphere of fear and apprehension, so that people are intimidated And what do you expect - most people do have to work very hard to make a living, they don't have the time to demonstrate. That does not mean though that they do like the coup.

There's not a shred of evidence that "most Thais opposed the coup" just as there's no shred of evidence that "middle classes (with parents still living upcountry) hate and detest poor farmers". I have no idea why people choose to believe this nonsense.

>>>>>>>>>

I don't quite understand "lack of formal education" charge against forum members. In my field what is considered "cutting edge" in peoples' first year becomes obsolete by the time they graduate. What I learned some twenty years ago is completely irrelevant today. There's no "formal education" in what we discuss here at all.

[Plus]

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/o...la-news-comment

An intersting article about polls.

If you talk to any Thai or foreign journalist they will tell you the majority opposed the coup.

But no one said so! They said LOTS of things about junta but no one said the majority of Thais opposed the coup, at least no one worth mentioning or remembering.

They all write about how public perception of Surayud government has deteriorated since the coup but no one writes about how Thais were against it from the start.

Why are we even wasting time on this? Today's Chang Noi's review of Anek's new book is a far more interesting subject but we, and I mean Youghusband, mostly, still argue some baseless point that goes totally against all evidence and public perception. Is that how people are supposed to apply their academic rigour according to Cambridge tradition?

Yes, you can challenge the "dogma", fine, but on what grounds? I don't see any. If any journalist indeed raised the question of the level of initial approval for the coup, I'd consider it. Until then it's a highly hypothetical situation - that I would eventually find such a journalist if I meet all of them personally and privately.

I would like to see proof of your claim that planning to blow Central World Plaza is not illegal, please.

Planning acts of terrorism is no covered by Thai law (was not covered at that time). That's why they only thing they could charge that unforunate car bomber was possession of explosives.

There is no shred of evidence that forest rangers have been planning to descend to Bangkok to cause mayhem.

There was that famous/infamous Nation's opinion piece written by Thanong Khantong, I believe, where he stated that preventing violent confrontation was one of the reasons for the coup. He actually referred to intellegence reports. I doubt he made it all up, and even if it was only a rumor, it was fairly credible as forest rangers were brought in by Yongyudh to disrupt rallies in the past (when Sondhi was holding his show in Lumpini). There were also published reports about the army demanding return of 4,000 rifles. Maybe it was a hoax from the start but a dangerous one nevertheless. I'm not surprised that it wasn't ignored.

Nobody could question the results because we had martial law. And now is still an atmosphere of fear and apprehension, so that people are intimidated And what do you expect - most people do have to work very hard to make a living, they don't have the time to demonstrate. That does not mean though that they do like the coup.

Yes, but they find ways to say a lot of other things about junta and even get them published. For all the fear and intimidation the press is not holding back when they feel the junta is in the wrong, like with capital controls or recent Somkid appointment. Yet no one questioned the initial support as was shown in the polls.

And if people don't have time for demonstrations, in practice it only means they don't consider the cause important enough.

[ColPyat]

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/o...la-news-comment

An intersting article about polls.

If you talk to any Thai or foreign journalist they will tell you the majority opposed the coup.

But no one said so! They said LOTS of things about junta but no one said the majority of Thais opposed the coup, at least no one worth mentioning or remembering.

They all write about how public perception of Surayud government has deteriorated since the coup but no one writes about how Thais were against it from the start.

Why are we even wasting time on this? Today's Chang Noi's review of Anek's new book is a far more interesting subject but we, and I mean Youghusband, mostly, still argue some baseless point that goes totally against all evidence and public perception. Is that how people are supposed to apply their academic rigour according to Cambridge tradition?

Yes, you can challenge the "dogma", fine, but on what grounds? I don't see any. If any journalist indeed raised the question of the level of initial approval for the coup, I'd consider it. Until then it's a highly hypothetical situation - that I would eventually find such a journalist if I meet all of them personally and privately.

I would advise you then to go to the Foreign Correspondent's Club, then you will many journalists. And many, over a beer, will say things that they cannot print.

I would like to see proof of your claim that planning to blow Central World Plaza is not illegal, please.

Planning acts of terrorism is no covered by Thai law (was not covered at that time). That's why they only thing they could charge that unforunate car bomber was possession of explosives.

There is no shred of evidence that forest rangers have been planning to descend to Bangkok to cause mayhem.

There was that famous/infamous Nation's opinion piece written by Thanong Khantong, I believe, where he stated that preventing violent confrontation was one of the reasons for the coup. He actually referred to intellegence reports. I doubt he made it all up, and even if it was only a rumor, it was fairly credible as forest rangers were brought in by Yongyudh to disrupt rallies in the past (when Sondhi was holding his show in Lumpini). There were also published reports about the army demanding return of 4,000 rifles. Maybe it was a hoax from the start but a dangerous one nevertheless. I'm not surprised that it wasn't ignored.

Oh, a "famous" Nation opinion piece, citing "intelligence" reports.

That is the same paper that invented an interview with Giles Ungpakorn, and was forced to apologise and make an retraction. Definately an independent source of evidence and proof. Which was still not given.

Nobody could question the results because we had martial law. And now is still an atmosphere of fear and apprehension, so that people are intimidated And what do you expect - most people do have to work very hard to make a living, they don't have the time to demonstrate. That does not mean though that they do like the coup.

Yes, but they find ways to say a lot of other things about junta and even get them published. For all the fear and intimidation the press is not holding back when they feel the junta is in the wrong, like with capital controls or recent Somkid appointment. Yet no one questioned the initial support as was shown in the polls.

And if people don't have time for demonstrations, in practice it only means they don't consider the cause important enough.

That shows again you utter ignorance about the life of the average Thai wage earner. To make ends meet they have to work between 12 and 16 hours a day. That doesn't leave any time to join demonstrations. The cause to keep food on the table, and send their children to school is obviously their most important priority.

And, there are reports, even at one time in the media, when people from upcountry wanted to join the demonstrations, but were "persuaded" by the local miltary staffing a road block. I believe they were even briefly detained.

I believe you are in dire need to read and internalise a few of the books and papers i have so regularly suggested you to acquire. Maybe then your arguments would be based on reality and facts, and not on how you believe things to be, based on the limited world you obviously move around here.

[Tony Clifton]

In case of such violence the job of police and army, both trained in riot control, would have been to keep the mobs from each other,

]

Considering they have been intentionally botching investigations up until days ago, for the most part, the police would have acted the same way they did at Central Plaza which basically consists of doing nothing, letting brother, classmate, almighty Pol Lt. Col. Thaksin have his way. There probably would have been clashes between army and police as well. Bloodshed wasn't only a risk between protesters. Luckily, the boys in brown were also caught with their pants down on Sep. 19 along with Thaksin.

The police would have acted exactly the same way they have acted during all the other demonstrations - with utmost restraint, no weapons on display, and discussing every move with the PAD leaders. Don't forget - the Central World incident was in close vicinity of the PM, which in every country is a security nightmare. This is not to be seen as an example of the otherwise exemplary and professional work of the police during the PAD demonstrations in Bangkok.

There were many situations where things could have easily gone out of hand, but were not mostly because of the coolheaded leadership of Pol. Maj. Gen. Pramoj Pathumwong, who was in charge of the demonstrations.

Don't forget - there were months of demonstrations with hardly any serious incident. Nobody dead, or seriously injured. This, i think, is for Thailand unique, and also not many other countries can pride themselves of such an achievement.

You seem to give credit to the police for the PAD rallies going smoothly, I prefer to think that those who attended peacefully deserve the credit. There were very few minor incidents, usually provoked by some yoyo Thaksin supporter planting himself in the middle of thousands of protesters holding a sign for Dear Leader etc. I was present and did not feel any bad vibes in the crowd, I would have left the moment I'd have felt otherwise.

As for the Central World incident and the close vicinity of the PM, with everyone aware of it, Thaksin had already left when the shouting punching and kicking of protesters took place outside. Unfortunately, the police did like was required at peaceful PAD rallies, nothing, and watched the beatings.

Back to topic with Thaksin moving to Australia.

I wonder if Thaksin will see any protesters in Australia after settling in? Living in different countries may come in handy. The London paparazzi seem to have got rid of him, for a while, his operations in his bunker/command post in China have probably ceased for good after the Singapore incident.

My apologies to Younghusband, no entertaining funny picture today.

Edited February 19, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[ColPyat]

You seem to give credit to the police for the PAD rallies going smoothly, I prefer to think that those who attended peacefully deserve the credit. There were very few minor incidents, usually provoked by some yoyo Thaksin supporter planting himself in the middle of thousands of protesters holding a sign for Dear Leader etc. I was present and did not feel any bad vibes in the crowd, I would have left the moment I'd have felt otherwise.

Well, those loonies supporting Thaksin were saved from the crowd by undercover policemen. I was there, and i have seen the crowd attacking them.

And i guess you were not there at the incident at Saphan Pan Fa, in which Sondhi, Chamlong and their bodyguards broke through the police line during the first march to government house, clearly provocing an incident, while the other PAD leaders negotiated with Gen. Pramoj. Thanks to the coolheaded reaction of Gen. Pramoj nothing happened.

This incident was even described in a small article in the Nation, which did though not do justice to the extreme tension during those minutes.

As for the Central World incident and the close vicinity of the PM, with everyone aware of it, Thaksin had already left when the shouting punching and kicking of protesters took place outside. Unfortunately, the police did like was required at peaceful PAD rallies, nothing, and watched the beatings.

Nobody said that the police handled that issue correctly. But, this incident was the exception. You cannot ignore that fact. You can neither ignore that nobody was killed, or seriously injured. So, all in all, this was a minor incident not worth blowing up to such an extend you guys do. What though is clear is that the Thaksin government and the police have dealt with the demonstrations with more restraint than most Thai governments have done in previous times of crises.

Especially the military has a rather sad track record in dealing with large demonstrations. Ask our present Prime Minister. He was personally involved as a general commanding the special warfare command during the last political massacre in May '92.

Back to topic with Thaksin moving to Australia.

I wonder if Thaksin will see any protesters in Australia after settling in? Living in different countries may come in handy. The London paparazzi seem to have got rid of him, for a while, his operations in his bunker/command post in China have probably ceased for good after the Singapore incident.

My apologies to Younghusband, no entertaining funny picture today.

[Tony Clifton]

The police hiring thugs, ex-cons and watching them strangling, kicking, punching a woman, a 65 and 70 year old man is no minor incident. Breaking open a gate made of inert iron is a minor incident.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[dr_Pat_Pong]

What kind of visa for Oz does he have or does he still have a diplomatic passport?.

His diplomatic passport has been withdrawn by the Foreign Ministry. With a diplomatic passport, a visa for Australia would still be required.

[sibeymai]

Just in case Mr. Ts's now looking for a home outside the UK......

Dear Mr. T,

Just as some Thais complain about the poor character of farangs in Thailand I too object to foreigners of poor character coming to live in Australia.

In fact Mr. T, I object to you personally buying a house in Australia, or obtaining any sort of vise which entitles you to any degree of permanency of residency. However, please visit often and spend lots of money and then GO HOME.

Furthermore, should you wish to have longer term residence in Australia you must comply with the following:

- you must lock up a large percentage of your personal wealth in a low interest deposit account

- you must marry or be in a genuine relationship with a native Australian (yes, one with black skin)

- if you choose to go into business you must provide 100% of the business capital

- to do business you must sign documents to give control of all funds and operations to members of your wife's family or other unknown associates who have no business experience

- you may not conduct offshore business while within Australia without a work visa

- you will be prohibited from undertaking activities designated as Australian such as gambling, winemaking, cricket or going to the beach

- you must notify the relevant government agency of which golf courses you will be playing on at least 3 months in advance

- you must have a permit from the relevant government agency approving you to play at a specific golf course. If you are found to be playing on an unapproved golf course you will be jailed and deported

- you must pay 1,900% more than Australians for golf club memberships and green fees

- you must return to Thailand once every year to renew your entry visa which can only be renewed in your home country

- you may not speak ill of any captain of a national sporting team under the threat of jail and deportation

- you will be subject by the police to random urine checks for the presence of Thai cuisine and if found you will be jailed and deported

- you will asked to pay more than Australians for all your purchases

- you may not jump any queues, seek any favourable treatment, offer bribes or use unfluential connections

- various government agencies will constantly vary the requirements stated above with out notice and with absolutely no regard for you or your family

- you will never be given any option to reside in Australia other than under the above conditions

Mr. T, if you have a feeling that you're not welcome, you might be right.

Regards,

A. Citizen.

PS. Mr. T, an "honest mistake" will not be accepted as an excuse for not complying with all of the above.

Anyone care to add more ?

Edited August 15, 2007 by sibeymai

[Gravelrash]

- if you have a car accident, boating accident or any accident of any description with an Australian citizen you will be automatically in the wrong purely due to unfortunate and inferior foreign birth. You may choose to pay exorbitant tea money to clear your obvious guilt, or if you are without cash you will be jailed/ and or deported.

- if you have an altercation or raise your voice with any Australian for any reason whatsoever, you will be descended upon by every other male Australian within co-ee range and have the living shit beaten out of you. If you should die it is obviously because you deserved it. If you don't die you will be responsible for any hospital costs ensuing for Gods Own People for cut hands and feet, bruised knuckles, broken knives or damaged pieces of lumber.

[jackspratt]

Sibeymai and Gravelrash - demonstrable xenophobic nonsense.

I see Pauline Hanson has started a new political party - you can probably sign up as foundation members.

[Grover]

- must pass the english language interview test before admission into the country.

[Tony Clifton]

- must pass the english language interview test before admission into the country.

He did obtain a Masters Degree and then a PhD in the US even though he can't express himself clearly in English 30 years later.

Just one more of the universe's unexplained mysteries that will get solved someday.

The man's a fraud from A to Z.

[Grover]

yes, and then he lectures Thais on the importance of learning the English language

[Big A]

Hope a shark gets the kunt (spelled with a capital C of course)!!

Edited August 15, 2007 by Big A

[sriracha john]

Does anyone know Thaksin's exact wherabouts on the evening of the 6th???

Sydney house sells for $28 million

A Sydney home has smashed the record for the most expensive home in Australia, selling for almost $30 million last night. Sending the city's real estate circles into a spin, the property known as Routala in Point Piper sold for between $28-30 million. The waterfront three-storey home in Wunulla Rd has long been regarded as one of the nation's best homes. Selling agent Bill Malouf confirmed the deal was struck last night.

"I can simply say that we have a new Australian record," he said. "I expected that it would break the $28 million barrier because there's an enormous shortage at the top end of the market.

"It's a trophy waterfront property."

- Daily Telegraph / August 07, 2007

[lazeeboy]

Does anyone know Thaksin's exact wherabouts on the evening of the 6th???

Sydney house sells for $28 million

A Sydney home has smashed the record for the most expensive home in Australia, selling for almost $30 million last night. Sending the city's real estate circles into a spin, the property known as Routala in Point Piper sold for between $28-30 million. The waterfront three-storey home in Wunulla Rd has long been regarded as one of the nation's best homes. Selling agent Bill Malouf confirmed the deal was struck last night.

"I can simply say that we have a new Australian record," he said. "I expected that it would break the $28 million barrier because there's an enormous shortage at the top end of the market.

"It's a trophy waterfront property."

- Daily Telegraph / August 07, 2007

maybe he's buying a property in assie but he wont leave the uk ,its to safe for him there at the moment..

[Suszzy]

he and his family still in london!!

watching his team play against derby today and

man city 1 derby 0

[sibeymai]

Sibeymai and Gravelrash - demonstrable xenophobic nonsense.

I see Pauline Hanson has started a new political party - you can probably sign up as foundation members.

While I won't deny that I agree with some of what Pauline Hanson has to say I deny any xenophobic leanings.

I would simply like Thaksin, if he chooses to live in Australia, to be subject to much the same rules which apply to me here in Thailand.

Where I come from that's called being fair which I accept is a rare characteristic in Asia.

[Sanpatong]

You may find that if you are in the Thaksin / Heineke league that such things are entirely possible in Thailand.

For the 'room + bathroom' crowd in Pattaya however, you will be more similarly treated to ordinary Thais visiting the West. Or better, actually.