BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[luckyluke]

Great info, 

I receive the news mails from the Club Ensemble. 

As there was no mention at all of the actual situation I draw too rapidly conclusions. 

Sorry. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by luckyluke

[White Tiger]

On 10/29/2018 at 5:38 PM, mfd101 said:

Ha ha. Well, no nonsense with the French, parbleu! Just get on with it, mes amis.

https://th.ambafrance.org/Suppression-du-notariat-consulaire-a-partir-du-1er-janvier-2019

 

A better link?  No letters - notarised documents - after 1 January 2019 from the French embassy. I don't read French but google translated the page into a kind of English for me. Looks like the French have followed suit with the British & Americans. That may be what you meant anyway mfd101, I wasn't sure. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by White Tiger

[Pattaya46]

27 minutes ago, White Tiger said:

No letters - notarised documents - after 1 January 2019 from the French embassy. I don't read French but google translated the page into a kind of English for me. Looks like the French have followed suit with the British & Americans. That may be what you meant anyway mfd101, I wasn't sure. 

No. That's something else.

Notarised documents in the French Embassy are only documents that you would have to sign in France in front of a notary or a judge, but that you sign at the Embassy because you are in Thailand. These are mainly (only?) for divorce, testament and real estate buy/sell.

This is an application of a law voted in 2017 and that concern all French embassies and consulate all over the world.

This has nothing to do with the "certification of income" letter for Thailand 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Pattaya46

[Pattaya46]

10 minutes ago, richiejom said:

I guess we can say Aurevoir to income letters then ????

Please read my post just above yours :

This has nothing to do with the "certification of income" letter for Thailand 

[mfd101]

53 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

No. That's something else.

Notarised documents in the French Embassy are only documents that you would have to sign in France in front of a notary or a judge, but that you sign at the Embassy because you are in Thailand. These are mainly (only?) for divorce, testament and real estate buy/sell.

This is an application of a law voted in 2017 and that concern all French embassies and consulate all over the world.

This has nothing to do with the "certification of income" letter for Thailand 

Yes, you're right. My quick glance a couple of days ago took that in plus reference to 'déclaration de revenus'. But that's their tax return, not their embassy letter for the Thais.

 

While there are various bits of information designed for tourists in Thailand, I can see nothing on the site about long stay/retirement etc in Thailand and no reference to Embassy letters in support of income declaration for Thai Immigration.

Edited October 31, 2018 by mfd101

[wayned]

Looks like the US Embassy has totally washed their hands of any culpability or future involvement in the situation and will not accept any emails or suggestions regarding the issue:

https://th.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/factsheet-income-affidavit.pdf

 

They forgot one FACT:  The vice Consular who signed my Affidavit on 16 October standing there behind the bullet proof glass shaking the Income Affidavit stating that Immigration don't want to see this, they want to see proof.  When I told her I had the proof but Immigration won't even look at it without the letter she basically just shrugged her shoulders.

 

[Patriot1066]

8 minutes ago, wayned said:

Looks like the US Embassy has totally washed their hands of any culpability or future involvement in the situation and will not accept any emails or suggestions regarding the issue:

https://th.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/factsheet-income-affidavit.pdf

 

They forgot one FACT:  The vice Consular who signed my Affidavit on 16 October standing there behind the bullet proof glass shaking the Income Affidavit stating that Immigration don't want to see this, they want to see proof.  When I told her I had the proof but Immigration won't even look at it without the letter she basically just shrugged her shoulders.

 

 

8 minutes ago, wayned said:

Looks like the US Embassy has totally washed their hands of any culpability or future involvement in the situation and will not accept any emails or suggestions regarding the issue:

https://th.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/factsheet-income-affidavit.pdf

 

They forgot one FACT:  The vice Consular who signed my Affidavit on 16 October standing there behind the bullet proof glass shaking the Income Affidavit stating that Immigration don't want to see this, they want to see proof.  When I told her I had the proof but Immigration won't even look at it without the letter she basically just shrugged her shoulders.

 

The UK embassy has been washing its hands of us for years, but it's odd they have both stopped at the same time?

[ubonjoe]

Several off topic and nonsensical posts have been removed,

[Thaidream]

3 hours ago, wayned said:

They forgot one FACT:  The vice Consular who signed my Affidavit on 16 October standing there behind the bullet proof glass shaking the Income Affidavit stating that Immigration don't want to see this, they want to see proof.  When I told her I had the proof but Immigration won't even look at it without the letter she basically just shrugged her shoulders.

I'll be going to the US Embassy end  of December for my letter and plan on showing them the proof- whether they want  it or not and also ask them what they are doing to 'ease the transition'.  

[wayned]

6 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I'll be going to the US Embassy end  of December for my letter and plan on showing them the proof- whether they want  it or not and also ask them what they are doing to 'ease the transition'.  

When I went on the 16th of October  I had the proof in a folder on the counter when I raised my hand.  I offered to show her the proof but she said that she did not want to see it.  I have a feeling that they have no intention of doing anything and could really give a crap about the expats here, much like the Brits.

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, wayned said:

When I went on the 16th of October  I had the proof in a folder on the counter when I raised my hand.  I offered to show her the proof but she said that she did not want to see it.  I have a feeling that they have no intention of doing anything and could really give a crap about the expats here, much like the Brits.

Actually= I believe you are correct.  Not a good feeling at all.

[wayned]

7 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Actually= I believe you are correct.  Not a good feeling at all.

You can't ignore the total contempt that emanates from the FACT sheet that they posted on the website which in big bald letters basically tells all of the expats here that it's not their job and to piss off!!!

 

Especially this one about working with Thai Immigration:

 

 FACT: U.S. citizens must work directly with the Royal Thai Government to determine if they meet

Thai visa requirements. The U.S. Embassy and Consulate General do not have a role in securing

a Thai visa for U.S. citizens.

 

[Tanoshi]

19 minutes ago, wayned said:

I had the proof in a folder on the counter when I raised my hand.  I offered to show her the proof but she said that she did not want to see it.

What is your definition of proof?

Copies or documents you 'claim' you received are not proof.

[wayned]

6 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

What is your definition of proof?

Copies or documents you 'claim' you received are not proof.

I addition to copies of the documents that I claim was proof including the yearly statement mailed to me by the social security administration, how about the  bankbooks from two banks that clearly show the monthly deposits of said payments into my account, one that I goes back to 2000 and the other 2007!  If that's not proof, I don't know what is.  I also showed these to the IO officer when I did my extension in Nakhon Sawan the same day and she said that "unless the law is charged" she had to have the Income Affidavit and that's what she took, nothing else!

[Tanoshi]

46 minutes ago, wayned said:

I addition to copies of the documents that I claim was proof including the yearly statement mailed to me by the social security administration,

You claim they were mailed to you by the SS!

Prove they were mailed to you, prove the document is authentic, confirm the financials stated are correct.

That is 'verification', which the Embassies cannot do, but what Immigration have requested.

 

For the US, you swear an 'affidavit'. No proof of income required.

Merely your word sworn under oath. Even with documental proof, as is the case of British expats to receive an Income letter, the documents and contents cannot be verified by the BE. They are taken on the basis of trust and honesty, same as your 'affidavits' are.

 

46 minutes ago, wayned said:

how about the  bankbooks from two banks that clearly show the monthly deposits of said payments into my account,

If your talking about Thai banks, then the passbooks and bank letter (which can be verified by Immigration) are only currently accepted as proof of funds (not monthly income) of 800K or 400K deposited 3 months prior to the date of application.

Until now, monthly income was indicate via a notice from your Embassy.

 

Until recently Immigration were under the impression Embassies were 'verifying the incomes', which has never been the case.

The negotiations took place in light of Immigration finding certain expats abusing the system by these methods.

 

Incomes paid into a Thai bank, passbook/statements and a bank letter, could be 'verified' by Immigration, in the same manner deposited funds are accepted, but this would require a Ministerial directive from the Thai authorities to Immigration as an acceptable method to prove income.

The UK and US are under the impression this method is already an alternative to Embassy letters.

Local Immigration offices are oblivious to this alternative, unless a Ministerial directive is issued to that effect.

 

IMHO, expats affected should now be harassing their Embassies to confirm with Immigration that such a Ministerial directive will be issued to Immigration offices, preferable as soon as possible. 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Tanoshi

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

MHO, expats affected should now be harassing their Embassies to confirm with Immigration that such a Ministerial directive will be issued to Immigration offices, preferable as soon as possible. 

Yes- I have said in other posts- we- the people -both British and Americans need to send our comments and problems directly to the Embassy.  If we don't do this- they will continue to wash their hands of us. 

[ubonjoe]

20 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

You claim they were mailed to you by the SS!

Prove they were mailed to you, prove the document is authentic, confirm the financials stated are correct.

That is 'verification', which the Embassies cannot do, but what Immigration have requested.

Not hard to prove they are originals sent to him by mail or that they are originals sent by the Social Security Administration. The annual letter stating the income for the coming year sent in December and the annual statement are sent as one of the tear off the ends and peel them apart type of letter. The first one is two sided and is 21 inches long and the other is also two sided and 17 inches long. It would be very hard to duplicate them.

[soalbundy]

8 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Until recently Immigration were under the impression Embassies were 'verifying the incomes', which has never been the case.

The negotiations took place in light of Immigration finding certain expats abusing the system by these methods.

The strange thing is though we aren't hearing reports of other nationalities having their embassies letters questioned or refused. If this was a purely verification problem then everybody would be affected who use the income method, this appears to me like a 'you've upset the system' problem and Brits and Americans are now the whipping boys.

[Tanoshi]

11 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Yes- I have said in other posts- we- the people -both British and Americans need to send our comments and problems directly to the Embassy.  If we don't do this- they will continue to wash their hands of us. 

Unfortunately, most people still have their head firmly stuck in the sand.

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, wayned said:

You can't ignore the total contempt that emanates from the FACT sheet that they posted on the website which in big bald letters basically tells all of the expats here that it's not their job and to piss off!!!

 

Especially this one about working with Thai Immigration:

 

 FACT: U.S. citizens must work directly with the Royal Thai Government to determine if they meet

Thai visa requirements. The U.S. Embassy and Consulate General do not have a role in securing

a Thai visa for U.S. citizens.

 

To the consulate general :- Thank you for your service 

[Tanoshi]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Not hard to prove they are originals sent him by mail or that they are originals sent by the Social Security Administration. The annual letter stating the income for the coming year sent in December and the annual statement are sent as one of the tear off the ends and peel them apart type of letter. The first one is two sided and is 21 inches long and the other is also two sided and 17 inches long. It would be very hard to duplicate them.

Foreign documents aren't acceptable to Immigration.

Even the US Embassy stated they cannot verify SS incomes.

 

The average SS income is I believe around $20,000 per annum, barely enough to qualify for 'marriage' extensions.

Without additional proof of income the 'retirement' extension is beyond reach.

[wayned]

9 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Unfortunately, most people still have their head firmly stuck in the sand.

Obviously you are one of those people.  I posted this FACT sheet from the US Embassy some time ago, they will not answer any inquiries related to this issue and direct you to this: https://th.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/factsheet-income-affidavit.pdf

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Foreign documents aren't acceptable to Immigration.

Even the US Embassy stated they cannot verify SS incomes.

Where did you read or hear that.

They cannot access anything to verify it and are not allowed by law to do it.

 

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

The average SS income is I believe around $20,000 per annum, barely enough to qualify for 'marriage' extensions.

At today's rate 20k USD is 658k baht. Well above the 480k baht income requirement.

[Tanoshi]

2 minutes ago, wayned said:

Obviously you are one of those people.  I posted this FACT sheet from the US Embassy some time ago, they will not answer any inquiries related to this issue and direct you to this: https://th.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/factsheet-income-affidavit.pdf

No I'm British mate and posting your FACT sheets from the US Embassy on the topic about the British Embassy is of little relevance to British expats who have to deal with the BE.

[Tanoshi]

11 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Where did you read or hear that.

They cannot access anything to verify it and are not allowed by law to do it.

In one the US Embassy statements.

Yes, I'm fully aware they cannot access your personal information due to Data protection, the same reason as the BE cannot.

 

11 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

At today's rate 20k USD is 658k baht. Well above the 480k baht income requirement.

That's ok if your on a marriage extension, most members posting, even if married, are on retirement extensions.

The fact is, as it stands, unless you can prove 400K or 800K in a Thai bank account, from July/Aug next year, the British and Americans using the income method are screwed, unless Immigration announce an alternative to the Embassy letters.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Tanoshi

[wayned]

6 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Foreign documents aren't acceptable to Immigration.

Even the US Embassy stated they cannot verify SS incomes.

 

The average SS income is I believe around $20,000 per annum, barely enough to qualify for 'marriage' extensions.

Without additional proof of income the 'retirement' extension is beyond reach.

There you go spouting off total crap again.  The US embassy has the ability to verify SSA income, it's just that they won't since it is not in their job description.  Just look at their website.  They could contact Manila and create a system of verifying SSA payments with little problem but they don't think that it is their job  so they won't do it..

 

I qualify for the 65000 baht/month income with just my SSA payment, which is $2250/month (max I think) and at the current exchange rate is about 74000 baht/month and wouldn't even have to use the private pension.  Those who are making less would have the option of using the option where the balance could be made up with a bank deposit, but less that the whole 800000 baht.

[Pib]

 

16 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Not hard to prove they are originals sent to him by mail or that they are originals sent by the Social Security Administration. The annual letter stating the income for the coming year sent in December and the annual statement are sent as one of the tear off the ends and peel them apart type of letter. The first one is two sided and is 21 inches long and the other is also two sided and 17 inches long. It would be very hard to duplicate them.

ID cards, passports, college diplomas, etc.,  should be pretty hard to fake also, but there is a vibrant underground business providing such docs.   Generating such fake pension/income documents in today's world of computers, scanners,  and editing software makes creating fake paper-based docs a piece of cake.   

 

Additionally if a person downloads that social security document from their MySSA online account they could then use editing software (Word, Adobe, etc) to "make changes" before presentation to immigration.   Ditto for other type of income type documents from companies/govt agencies.

 

Of course immigration knows this but at the same time I'm sure they do a risk analysis as to the percentage of time this would happen and if the risk level is acceptable to them.   And of course do they even want to go down that road of needing to learn the various types, formats, languages, etc., on the myriad of income type document available. 

 

Or, let's just keep it simple and only accept a freshly signed & stamped Thai bank letter with accompanying passbook which they are use to seeing and can easily verify with a phone call to the Thai bank if concerned the letter/passbook is fake.

 

Now, don't get me wrong....I sure hope Thai immigration does simply start accepting foreign generated income type statements "without an embassy letter"...I really do.   But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to possibly happen.

  

 

[Tanoshi]

5 minutes ago, wayned said:

There you go spouting off total crap again.  The US embassy has the ability to verify SSA income

 

17 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

They cannot access anything to verify it and are not allowed by law to do it.

 

You problem is you refuse to accept or understand the meaning of 'verification' as requested by Thai Immigration.

 

Even your own Countryman and very experienced member acknowledges the fact Embassies cannot 'verify' your income.

 

[wayned]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

 

You problem is you refuse to accept or understand the meaning of 'verification' as requested by Thai Immigration.

 

Even your own Countryman and very experienced member acknowledges the fact Embassies cannot 'verify' your income.

 

There you go again quoting what supports your point of view without quoting the other part of the quote.  It also said " They could contact Manila and create a system of verifying SSA payments".    What it would most likely take is a system where the applicant had to sign a release to reveal the information but it could be done.  Don't quote me again as I will not respond.

[luckyluke]

À lot of posters here speculate about the word "verified" .

But as far as I know nobody really knows what T. I. understand by "verification".

So far they still accept the Income Letters/Affidavit from other embassies and consulates. 

Which mean, I suppose, they are so far agree with the way those carry out the "verification".