BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I.m not quite understanding this- a poster states he has an answer from FCO or someplace else regarding why the BE stopped the letters but posted it on some unknown website- I have searched extensively for it- unable to find anything.  What is the secret?  What is the Website and why  all the intrigue- the answer either exists or does not? If  it doesn't say so- if it does  either tell us the answer or point us  to the site.

It's weird. This forum is here to exchange knowledge and experience, looking at the wording of his posts regarding this matter, ''not on this forum'' he appears passively aggressive towards TV, perhaps he has nothing.

[Tanoshi]

6 hours ago, evadgib said:

This should keep the serial posters happy til christmas ????

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/inside-the-foreign-office-bbc-series-2018

 

4 hours ago, OJAS said:

I find it amazing that the Beeb have apparently been able to spin out the series to as many as 3 parts!????

Good job it wasn't British TVF members making the production or it would run until the Xmas after next. ????

[Tanoshi]

54 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I.m not quite understanding this- a poster states he has an answer from FCO or someplace else regarding why the BE stopped the letters but posted it on some unknown website- I have searched extensively for it- unable to find anything.  What is the secret?  What is the Website and why  all the intrigue- the answer either exists or does not? If  it doesn't say so- if it does  either tell us the answer or point us  to the site.

Once an FOI request is answered, it is considered to be in the public domain.  To promote transparency, they should now publish the response and any material released on gov.uk in the FOI releases section.  

 

The only release I can find about the British Embassy in Bangkok dates back to 2016.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/536385/FOI_0371-16_Annual_Consular_Fees_in_Bangkok.pdf

 

It's also possible a recent request has not yet been published, although it should be if it has been answered.

 

[Tanoshi]

No FOI releases from either the Home office or the Foreign and Commonwealth Office since 2017.

https://www.gov.uk/search?q=FOI+releases+section&show_organisations_filter=true&filter_organisations[]=foreign-commonwealth-office&filter_organisations[]=home-office

[evadgib]

FoI releases are published on https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/ at the time they become available to whoever asked for them.

HTH

[007 RED]

11 minutes ago, evadgib said:

FoI releases are published on https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/ at the time they become available to whoever asked for them.

HTH

Not quite correct.  Only requests that have been made via the Whatdotheyknow website are published by Whatdotheyknow.  If the request was sent directly to the FCO Whatdotheyknow  won't know about it.

 

FYI..... As of a couple of minutes ago there were 5 FOI requests posted on the Whatdotheyknow website which relate to BE Embassy Bangkok.  2 of those have been responded to by the FCO (one being from me - refused) and the other 3 are awaiting a response.  Take a look:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/fco?utf8=✓&query=bangkok&request_date_after=2018%2F10%2F08&request_date_before=2018%2F11%2F13&commit=Search

[Tanoshi]

16 minutes ago, evadgib said:

FoI releases are published on https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/ at the time they become available to whoever asked for them.

HTH

Nothing there either under successful applications.

[007 RED]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Nothing there either under successful applications.

Try the link I've posted above in post 2620.

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

I.m not quite understanding this- a poster states he has an answer from FCO or someplace else regarding why the BE stopped the letters but posted it on some unknown website- I have searched extensively for it- unable to find anything.  What is the secret?  What is the Website and why  all the intrigue- the answer either exists or does not? If  it doesn't say so- if it does  either tell us the answer or point us  to the site.

Agreed...

 

Assuming it's against TV rules to post links to other sites (Perhaps a Mod can confirm), he (or the other guy who apparently found it) could a least give us a sentence from his post on the other site so we can search for it.

 

I've searched on various combinations and can't find anything

 

[marcusarelus]

4 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Try the link I've posted above in post 2620.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/fco/successful?utf8=✓&query=bangkok&request_date_after=2018%2F10%2F08&request_date_before=2018%2F11%2F13&commit=Search#results

 

Nothing.

[Tanoshi]

24 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Try the link I've posted above in post 2620.

Tried it Mr J Bond. lol. Thanks.

Still a chance for a reply to your amended question.

 

The member stated he had a successful reply and I'm sure, without going back, he stated it was from the FCO

Edited November 13, 2018 by Tanoshi

[007 RED]

3 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Tried it Mr J Bond. lol. Thanks.

 

The member stated he had a successful reply and I'm sure, without going back, he stated it was from the FCO

FYI..... If you submit a request via Whatdotheyknow, they in turn forward it to the relevant government body (in this case the FCO) on your behalf.  The FCO then reply to Whatdotheyknow who in turn post the FCO response.  As you will see from my request there is a PDF letter attached from the FCO.

 

I seem to recall that the poster who indicated that he had received a response from the FCO indicated that they answered 2 of his 3 questions.  One of the requests (awaiting a response) askes 3 questions.  Maybe coincidence.

[evadgib]

26 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Not quite correct.  Only requests that have been made via the Whatdotheyknow website are published by Whatdotheyknow.  If the request was sent directly to the FCO Whatdotheyknow  won't know about it.

That's pretty much what I meant but TBH I thought HMG had farmed it out to whatdotheyknow so that all govt requests are in one basket. My own most recent requests appeared there during a search but I have others that pre-date wdtk by some years that I've never bothered looking for (I either have or no longer need the information) & will presumably be archived by the appropriate dept.

Edited November 13, 2018 by evadgib

[007 RED]

4 minutes ago, evadgib said:

That's pretty much what I meant but TBH I thought HMG had farmed it out to whatdotheyknow so that all govt requests are in one basket. My own most recent requests appeared there during a search but I have others that pre-date wdtk that I've never bothered looking for & will presumably be archived by the appropriate dept.

Whatdotheyknow is not in any form of partnership with the FCO or any other UK Government body.  They are totally independent and were set up shortly after the FOI Act was introduced to enable individuals anonymous access to information without revealing their personal details (email address, IP location etc) to the Government body.

[Spidey]

I have, in the past, viewed correspondence between the FCO and embassies at the PRO Kew. Don't know how long between the correspondence being generated and it being archived takes though.

[Thaidream]

IMO-  the people (that's us) have  a right to know the truth- and that truth is contained within the  correspondence and/or interaction between the BE and Thai Imm.  If what BE states is  the truth then the actual  correspondence and interaction should back that up. However,  if there are other issues we have a right to know.  there is hardly anything of a classified nature here. Let the record be transparent and let us see it so we may draw our own conclusions.  If there is nothing to hide- don't hide it!

Edited November 13, 2018 by Thaidream

[OJAS]

13 hours ago, Thaidream said:

IMO-  the people (that's us) have  a right to know the truth- and that truth is contained within the  correspondence and/or interaction between the BE and Thai Imm.  If what BE states is  the truth then the actual  correspondence and interaction should back that up. However,  if there are other issues we have a right to know.  there is hardly anything of a classified nature here. Let the record be transparent and let us see it so we may draw our own conclusions.  If there is nothing to hide- don't hide it!

indeed - and, as it happens, I submitted an FOI request of my own yesterday to Sara Peth at the Embassy "for recorded information held by the Embassy in connection with any agreement which it has reached with the Thai Immigration Bureau confirming that monthly income can, in future, be verified through local immigration officers sighting it in a Thai bank account in lieu of any confirmatory letter issued by the Embassy".

 

I find it curious that the British Embassy appear to be the only 1 of the 3 embassies who have, to date, announced withdrawals of their income confirmation services, who are specifically peddling the "sighting monthly income in a Thai bank account" alternative method.

 

 

[wayned]

42 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

I find it curious that the British Embassy appear to be the only 1 of the 3 embassies who have, to date, announced withdrawals of their income confirmation services, who are specifically peddling the "sighting monthly income in a Thai bank account" alternative method.

When I got my last income letter at the US Embassy on 16 October, the Vice consular that signed the Affidavit said that Thai IO don't want to see the letter, they want to see "proof".  I told her that I had "proof" including the pension letters and bank books that have shown monthly payments into a Thai Bank account, one since 2000 and the other since 2007.  When I went to do my extension I spoke to the IO at the Nakhon Sawan Office and showed her the "proof" that I had and she told me that even though it showed that I received the monthly payments she could not accept the "proof" without the latter from the Embassy and was told that she only wanted to see the letter, no "proof" was required..  So the US Embassy did say that they wanted the proof but Than IO said that they would not accept the "proof" without the letter.

[JLCrab]

14 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Let the record be transparent and let us see it so we may draw our own conclusions.  If there is nothing to hide- don't hide it!

And there will always be some who will say the reason that there is nothing to show on the record is because you're hiding it.

[Thaidream]

16 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

And there will always be some who will say the reason that there is nothing to show on the record is because you're hiding it.

Unfortunately, Governments and bureaucracies have a long history of hiding information and refusing to provide the documentation  which shows why they made their decision.  The reason for this is that they feel  we- the people- won't understand; that we the people- can't bear the truth and that they are always better to make decisions than us.  They refuse to become accountable for their decisions even though their very existence is paid for by - US- the people

 

There is always a record; there is always documentation and there is always some evidence leading up to a decision.  

[JLCrab]

Still it is always difficult to prove something doesn't exist. If you show 10 places where it might exist and it doesn't, one can always say it is in place 11.

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, JLCrab said:

Still it is always difficult to prove something doesn't exist. If you show 10 places where it might exist and it doesn't, one can always say it is in place 11.

And that is exactly why people do not trust their Government or politicians .  Decisions are made that affect the lives of people and their is a lack of transparency.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Unfortunately, Governments and bureaucracies have a long history of hiding information and refusing to provide the documentation  which shows why they made their decision.  The reason for this is that they feel  we- the people- won't understand; that we the people- can't bear the truth and that they are always better to make decisions than us.  They refuse to become accountable for their decisions even though their very existence is paid for by - US- the people

You are far too kind.  It's not that they think we wouldn't understand - it's that they know we would indeed understand precisely what they are doing.

 

They hide evidence (shred documents, purge-emails, refuse to publish private-speeches, etc), because they know what they are doing/saying/promising in private is Diametrically Opposed to our interests.  Their "job" is to throw us under the bus, in service to those they actually work for (in exchange for high-paying gigs later), and try to prevent us finding out about it in time to hold anyone accountable or minimize the harm done.  When they are caught, they just pass the baton to the "other team" who works for the same bosses.

 

2 hours ago, JLCrab said:

And there will always be some who will say the reason that there is nothing to show on the record is because you're hiding it.

This is also true.  The powers-that-be can use an invented-story exactly this way - claiming that "we just haven't looked hard enough" to find the "smoking gun evidence" for a rumored event that never happened.  Their made-up rumors become the "smoke" that justifies looking for the "fire." 

 

But in the case of what went down between Thai Imm and the embassies, there must be some notes of the exchanges leading to a significant policy change.  I tend to think it was immigration that said the letters would be worthless - but only one way to know.  If we could get FOI from all three, this could at least help find out who put the shiv in us - even if it doesn't change our fate.

 

I wish the very best to the Brits working to hold their embassy/govt accountable.  Has anyone begun this process with the USA or Aussie embassies yet?

[soalbundy]

2 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Still it is always difficult to prove something doesn't exist. If you show 10 places where it might exist and it doesn't, one can always say it is in place 11.

it usually is

[soalbundy]

2 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Still it is always difficult to prove something doesn't exist. If you show 10 places where it might exist and it doesn't, one can always say it is in place 11.

it usually is

[Thaidream]

45 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

wish the very best to the Brits working to hold their embassy/govt accountable.  Has anyone begun this process with the USA or Aussie embassies yet?

There is a Town Hall meeting at the US Consulate Chiang Mai in which the Vice Consul will allegedly provide some input into the situation.  I am waiting for those comments. Meeting date 20 Nov.

 

As far as the Thai Imm demanding  the Embassies do anything- it is hard for me to imagine a Thai official  such as the Immigration Commissioner  use the word  demand in English or Thai to representatives of the  Diplomatic Community and I believe from reading all posts and the Embassy statements a meeting was held in May 2018 in which the Embassies were requested to make sure they verify the information.  

 

At some point the 3 Embassies decided that they could not provide 100% guarantee that the income information was correct and decided not to issue the letters anymore.

 

It is also obvious that there was some co-ordination between the 3 Embassies because the BE rep indicated in her opening remarks that she was aware the US Embassy would follow suit and the announcements from the Embassies are almost identical.  No other Embassy has announced  stopping the letters which leads me to the possibility that the 3 Embassies  saw an advantage to themselves to stop the letters- no possible legal entanglements; no complaining  citizens about the cost and inconvenience and also  the BE seeing a financial advantage to stop and the US Embassy seeing a lessening of service culling an overcrowded Citizen's service.

 

I doubt all 3 of the Embassies fully understood the impact of their decision because none of them fully understand the  Police Order or the evidences needed to obtain extensions or  how  citizens get their income.

 

I believe the decision was made in haste; I believe the decision was ill timed and I believed if they really negotiated with Thai Imm- a compromise could have been reached to preserve the letters with some modification.

 

 

[soalbundy]

8 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

There is a Town Hall meeting at the US Consulate Chiang Mai in which the Vice Consul will allegedly provide some input into the situation.  I am waiting for those comments. Meeting date 20 Nov.

 

As far as the Thai Imm demanding  the Embassies do anything- it is hard for me to imagine a Thai official  such as the Immigration Commissioner  use the word  demand in English or Thai to representatives of the  Diplomatic Community and I believe from reading all posts and the Embassy statements a meeting was held in May 2018 in which the Embassies were requested to make sure they verify the information.  

 

At some point the 3 Embassies decided that they could not provide 100% guarantee that the income information was correct and decided not to issue the letters anymore.

 

It is also obvious that there was some co-ordination between the 3 Embassies because the BE rep indicated in her opening remarks that she was aware the US Embassy would follow suit and the announcements from the Embassies are almost identical.  No other Embassy has announced  stopping the letters which leads me to the possibility that the 3 Embassies  saw an advantage to themselves to stop the letters- no possible legal entanglements; no complaining  citizens about the cost and inconvenience and also  the BE seeing a financial advantage to stop and the US Embassy seeing a lessening of service culling an overcrowded Citizen's service.

 

I doubt all 3 of the Embassies fully understood the impact of their decision because none of them fully understand the  Police Order or the evidences needed to obtain extensions or  how  citizens get their income.

 

I believe the decision was made in haste; I believe the decision was ill timed and I believed if they really negotiated with Thai Imm- a compromise could have been reached to preserve the letters with some modification.

 

 

excellent post, sums it up very well I think.

[Namplik]

Danish embassy also will stop this effecting immediately! Which embassy next? ????

 

 

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, Namplik said:

Danish embassy also will stop this effecting immediately! Which embassy next? ????

 

 

Thanks

After finding a version in English I have done a new topic about it.

 

[MyTHaiMyKe]

Just a thought! 90% or more Thais live on from $3000-$5000 baht a month. Why is it required for a farang to live on $65,000 a month? I know we need more, BUT come on, 12X more, that's why we all retired here! To live inexpensively! The $800,000 a year! You could not find 100 families, that all together, could come up with that kind of money in a lifetime, let alone one year! Sounds like a shakedown to me!! BigJoke wants the money, he doesn't want to see the embassies making the money.

Again, this is just a thought! Doesn't make any sense to me! But I guess, who am I! One farang, no matter what they make, spends and makes more money, than a number of many Thais! But guess they don't want our business! But we shall see, because nothing is written in granite!

I had an immigration person write down on a piece of paper that said $16,000, I asked what is that! The answer was "you want a visa, $16,000 baht and you got a one year visa"! I declined!! I will not be extorted, period!! Talked to someone else, they were told $20,000 baht!