Revisiting Sihanoukville.

[KhunHeineken]

On 3/29/2019 at 2:59 AM, Tomtomtom69 said:

I don't think any businesses would prevent westerners from entering. Why? Doesn't make any sense. However, no westerner in his right mind would go to a grimy, dirty Chinese restaurant located inside a Chinese casino in Sihanoukville with a menu only in Chinese or half Chinese/half Khmer.

Many of the Chinese businesses, aka brothels, don't want westerners inside them because the girls will show attention to the more wealthy westerners, and neglect the Chinese customers.

 

Thai karaoke bars are similar. 

 

Restaurants were not a problem for entry, but no English on the menus.

[KhunHeineken]

On 3/29/2019 at 3:07 AM, Tomtomtom69 said:

I don't think they care, it's more about Chinese people fed up living in China. The population is huge, competition for everything is huge and jobs are scarce so if given the chance to go somewhere like Cambodia, they will. Chinese seem to be able to live just about anywhere, even in the middle of Africa, just as long as they can escape China. Some of the "escapees" just so happen to be criminals, while others are concerned about increasing government repression, others still feel they have a chance at doing business that they wouldn't be able to do inside of China.

Sure, I get that, but China could easily turn off the money flow, and even stop flights.  if they wanted to, they could lock everyone, and their money, inside China. 

 

They seem to be allowing a lot of money out, no doubt much of it for laundering, for all these projects in Sihanouville.

 

I believe the average Chinese isn't allowed to gamble in Macau, or there are restrictions, but they can all gamble in Sihanoukville. 

 

I'm a little surprised the Chinese government allow it.

[KhunHeineken]

On 3/29/2019 at 3:22 AM, Tomtomtom69 said:

Why the racism against westerners (we are talking about Cambodia here and funnily enough, it's Chinese, not Cambodians who are the racist ones here)? In China, you are welcome to visit any bar you want without any prejudice and will probably be welcomed with open arms by the locals. I don't get it.

 

What I do get is that few westerners would be interested in going to a dingy Chinese bar in Cambodia anyway, especially since it's likely no one will speak English and there's even a chance no one will speak Khmer. However, to say that one lonely westerner in the unlikely even he would even entertain the idea of going to a crappy Chinese bar, who is outnumbered 100 to 1 should be banned, is ridiculous.

 

Actually, most westerners wouldn't even go to these kinds of places if they were paid to go. So I take that back. Westerners are "banned" but wouldn't go in the first place...kinda doesn't make sense.

They don't like the westerners going into the casinos because it's free food and alcohol and cigarettes while you gamble. 

 

Could you imagine the Cheap Charlies with a deal like that?  Put $1USD in a slot machine and play $0.01 on 1 line for 3 hours and eat all you want and drink all you want.

 

As far as the bars, as said in an earlier post, more wealthy westerners grab all the girl's attention, because the girls know the westerns pay them more. 

 

Walk into a strict Thai only karaoke bar and see the reception you get. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 3/29/2019 at 3:31 AM, Tomtomtom69 said:

Doesn't surprise me. Lots of moaners on here complaining about "farang not wanted in Thailand" but the reality is Thailand is still heaven compared to Sihanoukville (and in many ways, Cambodia in general) and when things like this happen, foreigners come back here. Thailand's strict foreigner business rules have meant that it has escaped any part of the country turning into another Sihanoukville. Which I think is a good thing. Thailand will probably always remain the jewel of mainland SE Asia now with Laos also becoming a Chinese vassal state (although at least not in the way Sihanoukville has become).

 

Vietnam is also a good choice and they have successfully kept the Chinese at bay. Sihanoukville 2.0 could never happen in Vietnam.

Google "zero baht tourists Thailand" and then tell me that the Chinese infiltrating Thailand's tourism industry. 

 

I think you will see Vietnam's tourism industry grow in popularity, exponentially, in the near future, to Thailand's detriment. 

 

Vietnam is getting the western market that are now rejecting Thailand, and they have real money to spend, not like bus loads of Chinese package holiday tourists.   

[BritManToo]

9 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Walk into a strict Thai only karaoke bar and see the reception you get. 

Some friends and I used to do just that a few years back, load the table with food (50bht/plate), and every girl in the place would be at out table while the Thai guys frowned at us from around the joint.

[KhunHeineken]

On 3/29/2019 at 3:34 AM, Tomtomtom69 said:

Chinese men are also attracted by sex. Surely most of these casinos have sex workers (probably from China, but possibly also places like Vietnam) available for those Chinese that desire them. I'm sure of this.

Yes, there were Khmer and Chinese sex workers in Sihanoukville.

 

The Chinese sex workers seemed to be working freelance off phone apps, but the organized supply of Chinese sex workers could be seen on "flyers" left on the ground or on poles.  They were in Chinese, but the photo of a pretty girl, wearing not much, made it obvious it was sex for sale.  

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Vietnam is getting the western market that are now rejecting Thailand, and they have real money to spend, not like bus loads of Chinese package holiday tourists.

I prefer Cambodia to Vietnam at the moment.

Next month I have 5 days booked in Vietnam and 10 days in Cambodia.

Cambodia is a bit more 'party atmosphere' IMHO, great for a holiday, and the food is more to my taste.

[KhunHeineken]

On 3/29/2019 at 3:42 AM, Tomtomtom69 said:

 

There is a difference...Chinese tourists in Thailand, although there are many calibers of tourists are in general better educated, better behaved than those in Sihanoukville. They come to Thailand for various reasons including shopping, seeing the sights including the beaches etc. Nowhere in Thailand do I feel the Chinese "own" the place over any other nationality. Not even in Pattaya or Phuket. Thailand is overwhelmingly Thai and even if you go to Yaowarat (China town) it's Thai-Chinese and not Chinese-Chinese. Thailand has good Chinese, Sihanoukville attracts the mafia, the criminals, the lowest of the low Chinese. That's the difference. So despite all the "good" you speak of, most of it isn't looking very positive for Sihanoukville and for Cambodians and expats still living there.

 

Apart from maybe one big casino located on an island with very strict operating/licensing conditions, I don't think Thailand should explore the possibility of allowing legalized gambling. However, the Vietnamese model could work to some extent.

Comparing a town in Cambodia to the whole of Thailand is a big stretch.

 

Once again, Google "zero baht tourists Thailand" and then tell me the Chinese haven't got their hooks into Thailand's tourism industry. 

 

The Chinese own the buses, boats, gem shops, latex shops, dried fruit shops, hotels, restaurants, and just about everything that the big coach buses full of Chinese will visit.  All the profit stays in China when the package holiday is purchased, and then profits made from extra sales in Thailand are repatriated back to China.

 

The Chinese may not "own" Thailand, but look at the way westerners have colonized Thailand.

[KhunHeineken]

On 3/29/2019 at 3:51 AM, Tomtomtom69 said:

are you saying all the western backpackers are gone now?

 

I last went to Snooky in the latter part of 2017. Stayed a night at the respectable Sokha Beach resort. Some Chinese were staying there (the more respectable types not the gambling ones) but otherwise saw a large mixture of nationalities. There was even a Russian staff member. Same thing on Koh Rong Samloen, one Russian lady working at one of the beach bars there. Lots of backpackers, some Chinese package tourists, even some Thais. This on a trip in 2016. Already saw evidence of casino construction then, mostly in the port area to the west of the city - quite a number of casinos already operational. Around the ferry terminal to Koh Rong and other places towards the eastern beaches not many Chinese. Don't know about now...

You would be shocked, as I was late 2018.  Look at my photo.  All the old backpacker haunts have been demolished, same with the expat bars.  

 

There are no backpackers in Sihanokville because there is no affordable accommodation there for them now, and The Big Easy and Monkey Republic where the only two bars left for them.  They all bypass Sihanoukville for Koh Rong.    

[KhunHeineken]

18 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Some friends and I used to do just that a few years back, load the table with food (50bht/plate), and every girl in the place would be at out table while the Thai guys frowned at us from around the joint.

Which is funny, until a drunk and jealous Thai guys starts shooting.  ????

[KhunHeineken]

16 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I prefer Cambodia to Vietnam at the moment.

Next month I have 5 days booked in Vietnam and 10 days in Cambodia.

Cambodia is a bit more 'party atmosphere' IMHO, great for a holiday, and the food is more to my taste.

Where are you going in Cambodia and Vietnam?

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

Where are you going in Cambodia and Vietnam?

Flying to Saigon for 5 nights, bus to Phnom Penh for 7 nights, then bus to Siam Reap for 3 nights.

Haven't decided how long to stay in Siam Reap, but everything booked until then.

I went to Siam Reap in January but didn't go to Angkor Wat, and I also want to take a look at Phnom Kulan and Koh Ker.

[KhunHeineken]

Just now, BritManToo said:

Flying to Saigon for 5 nights, bus to Phnom Penh for 7 nights, then bus to Siam Reap for 3 nights.

Haven't decided how long to stay in Siam Reap, but everything booked until then.

I went to Siam Reap in January but didn't go to Angkor Wat, and I also want to take a look at Phnom Kulan and Koh Ker.

I haven't been to Phnom Penh for some years.  I will go this year. 

 

When were you last there?   

[BritManToo]

Just now, KhunHeineken said:

I haven't been to Phnom Penh for some years.  I will go this year. 

When were you last there?   

Never, but one of my pals from Chiang Mai relocated there this year when the pound dipped his pension below 65k/month.

He seems happy in PP, paid $200 for a 6 month VISA, and $300/month for an apartment.

I would have chosen Siam Reap but he likes the big cities.

[KittenKong]

On 3/28/2019 at 11:31 PM, Tomtomtom69 said:

Thailand will probably always remain the jewel of mainland SE Asia

If this is the jewel I dread to think what the other places must be like.

[phuketrichard]

59 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Flying to Saigon for 5 nights, bus to Phnom Penh for 7 nights, then bus to Siam Reap for 3 nights.

Haven't decided how long to stay in Siam Reap, but everything booked until then.

I went to Siam Reap in January but didn't go to Angkor Wat, and I also want to take a look at Phnom Kulan and Koh Ker.

LOL  going to sr and not going to Angkor Wat> WHY??...Like going to Paris an not seeing Notre Dam....

ahhh i recall, you preferred sitting around a pool drinking piss water and didn't want spend $37 to see a bunch of old rocks (just having a go at ya ???? )

For me, SR is a town with decent western food i just pass thru between Surin and Stung Treng, ( with a visit to the Khone Pha Pheng waterfall waterfalls) and the North east

 

7 nights in pp is a LONG time, although if you enjoy drinking the nights are good but f#@k all to do in the daytime and its dam hot.

Take a private car from SR to Preah Vihear with stops at Phnom Kulan- koh Ker. leave 7 am or so an have the sunset at Preah Vihear,

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, phuketrichard said:

7 nights in pp is a LONG time, although if you enjoy drinking the nights are good but f#@k all to do in the daytime and its dam hot.

4* hotel with roof pool and views of the river, I'll drink all day.

I'll have beer and happy pizza with pals most days.

Hopefully the air won't be as bad as Chiang Mai.

[Tomtomtom69]

On 3/30/2019 at 7:19 AM, KhunHeineken said:

Many of the Chinese businesses, aka brothels, don't want westerners inside them because the girls will show attention to the more wealthy westerners, and neglect the Chinese customers.

 

Thai karaoke bars are similar. 

 

Restaurants were not a problem for entry, but no English on the menus.

Westerners visit Thai karaoke bars no problem, but I can see why they wouldn't want to visit Chinese ones. Westerners are scarce in China by comparison to Thailand, it's the same story anywhere where newly arrived Chinese congregate (Sihanoukville's Chinese areas being one such example).

 

I doubt the average Chinese restaurant in SHV would ever really see a westerner inside. Have you been?

[Tomtomtom69]

On 3/30/2019 at 7:24 AM, KhunHeineken said:

Sure, I get that, but China could easily turn off the money flow, and even stop flights.  if they wanted to, they could lock everyone, and their money, inside China. 

 

They seem to be allowing a lot of money out, no doubt much of it for laundering, for all these projects in Sihanouville.

 

I believe the average Chinese isn't allowed to gamble in Macau, or there are restrictions, but they can all gamble in Sihanoukville. 

 

I'm a little surprised the Chinese government allow it.

Eventually, the same thing may happen as in Boten, Laos (the border town with China): all casinos closed down jointly by the Lao and Chinese governments, becoming a ghost town overnight in the process. A revived Boten now sees duty-free shopping and zero criminality, unlike the vices and insanity that occurred prior to 2011.

[Tomtomtom69]

On 3/30/2019 at 7:52 AM, KhunHeineken said:

Comparing a town in Cambodia to the whole of Thailand is a big stretch.

 

Once again, Google "zero baht tourists Thailand" and then tell me the Chinese haven't got their hooks into Thailand's tourism industry. 

 

The Chinese own the buses, boats, gem shops, latex shops, dried fruit shops, hotels, restaurants, and just about everything that the big coach buses full of Chinese will visit.  All the profit stays in China when the package holiday is purchased, and then profits made from extra sales in Thailand are repatriated back to China.

 

The Chinese may not "own" Thailand, but look at the way westerners have colonized Thailand.

That is being cracked down on. Look at the whole fiasco with so-called "nominees" whereby Chinese use Thais as front men for businesses they run, but aren't allowed to. Google it, although there is more info about it in Thai than in English.

 

Unlike in SHV though, where westerners are increasingly not welcome, in Thailand all nationalities are welcome and I do not get the impression that any one nationality dominates in any place. One does NOT see Chinese owned and run shops with Chinese only menus in restaurants and Chinese only billboards etc., casinos (because they're illegal) like one sees in SHV, in Thailand. Yes there are some businesses in places like Pattaya, Phuket and even Chiang Mai with Chinese signs on them but unlike in SHV, Chinese aren't allowed to set up a business and employ only their own nationals and turn the place into a mini China.

[Tomtomtom69]

On 3/30/2019 at 8:36 AM, KittenKong said:

If this is the jewel I dread to think what the other places must be like.

Well as you can gather from this thread, some of them are dumps. Granted, at this time this only really applies to Sihanoukville.

 

Phnom Penh is still pretty cool and Siem Reap is great. The latter sees tons of backpackers and tourists from all over, not just China. It's basically a microcosm of the entire world in one place. I love it. Sihanoukville on the other hand can kiss my ass. I'm not going there anymore, especially not if none of the businesses there wants to see westerners (or presumably any non-Chinese either). I work for a Chinese company and go to China quite a lot, so going to SHV to see a mini China in Cambodia isn't exactly my idea of fun. If I want to experience China, I go to visit the real thing.

[KhunHeineken]

16 minutes ago, Tomtomtom69 said:

Westerners visit Thai karaoke bars no problem, but I can see why they wouldn't want to visit Chinese ones. Westerners are scarce in China by comparison to Thailand, it's the same story anywhere where newly arrived Chinese congregate (Sihanoukville's Chinese areas being one such example).

 

I doubt the average Chinese restaurant in SHV would ever really see a westerner inside. Have you been?

Have you been into a Thai karaoke bar in a Thai area?  Not so friendly for a foreigner in there.

 

Yes, I went into some Chinese restaurants in SHV.  I love the duck.  There were no other foreigners in the restaurants when I was in them, then again, there's not many foreigners in SHV now, at all. 

[KhunHeineken]

14 minutes ago, Tomtomtom69 said:

Eventually, the same thing may happen as in Boten, Laos (the border town with China): all casinos closed down jointly by the Lao and Chinese governments, becoming a ghost town overnight in the process. A revived Boten now sees duty-free shopping and zero criminality, unlike the vices and insanity that occurred prior to 2011.

That's interesting.  I will Google that.  Never knew about it. 

 

There would be no beach there, as Laos is land locked.  SHV has beaches.  China wouldn't even need cooperation from Cambodia to shut SHV down.  They could just stop the flights from China, and it's all over.

 

The Chinese government wouldn't care about their citizens traveling, but it's all the money leaving China that may concern them, and gambling is big money.

[KhunHeineken]

23 minutes ago, Tomtomtom69 said:

That is being cracked down on. Look at the whole fiasco with so-called "nominees" whereby Chinese use Thais as front men for businesses they run, but aren't allowed to. Google it, although there is more info about it in Thai than in English.

 

Unlike in SHV though, where westerners are increasingly not welcome, in Thailand all nationalities are welcome and I do not get the impression that any one nationality dominates in any place. One does NOT see Chinese owned and run shops with Chinese only menus in restaurants and Chinese only billboards etc., casinos (because they're illegal) like one sees in SHV, in Thailand. Yes there are some businesses in places like Pattaya, Phuket and even Chiang Mai with Chinese signs on them but unlike in SHV, Chinese aren't allowed to set up a business and employ only their own nationals and turn the place into a mini China.

You do know a lot of foreigners "own" land in Thailand using Thai nominees, right?  

 

As said, the Chinese are buying hotels, restaurants, gem shops, fruit shops, latex, buses and everything else the Chinese will use, or need, on their package holiday. 

 

What they can't buy, or build, like elephant shows for example, they beat the owners down to rock bottom price, or they don't bring a coach bus load every day.

 

Chinese are now the majority tourism market in Thailand, and they are using that big market share to their advantage, which is what the Chinese are good at.

 

Raiding the odd business here and there is not going to stop the Chinese foray into the Thailand tourism industry, and frankly speaking, if the Chinese stopped holidaying in Thailand tomorrow, Thailand's tourism industry would be in big big trouble. 

[tlandtday]

this is how they colonize and create colonialism in their economy.... thailand is going the same way just not as easy to recognize...

[maimeepom]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 9:05 AM, Kiwisailor said:

Be very prepared for a shock, in fact many shocks!!!! Was there 2 months ago and couldn't believe the changes made since ewe were there 10 months previously. Only Chinese oriented beach bars now open at the far end of the beach. The first 2-300 metres of beach from the wharf is a a wasteland. All bars and guesthouses gone.

Still some good bars on the beach on the RHS of the wharf but not sure for how much longer. Mick and Craigs, Monkey Republic and Big Easy the only big name guesthouses/bars still standing. Most places closed through lack of staff - most rentals for Cambodians now 4 to 5 times what they were a year ago.

Otres probably about a year away from the same process and yes roads are bad, tuk tuks will go there but want a lot more money now.

Koh Rong still the same but as you land you can see out to the left a new concrete wharf being built which means that vehicles and building products will be now be able to be landed so don't expect to see it remain as unaffected as it is now.

Kep seeing similar changes (but smaller and slower) and in Kampot there is a lot of talk of Chinese investment but little activity apart from up on Bokor Hill where the old abandoned casino has been fully restored and is back in business (Chinese visitors ONLY enforced by security staff) in less than 12 months.

Saw this video before going there and half of the buildings shown on Beach Rd are now gone.

Our spot of choice was the Beach Rd Hotel - still open but half has been demolished and prices tripled. They still have (or had, who knows now!) the pool open so you may be able to sort a price to use it.

Sadly this place is now off our must visit list.

Another documentary depicting the plight of the local Sihanoukville businesses, which are closing due to the recent Chinese take over.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O57U3O-DeHA

 

[Kiwisailor]

 

[phuketrichard]

 

[Tomtomtom69]

On 3/31/2019 at 8:53 PM, KhunHeineken said:

You do know a lot of foreigners "own" land in Thailand using Thai nominees, right?  

 

As said, the Chinese are buying hotels, restaurants, gem shops, fruit shops, latex, buses and everything else the Chinese will use, or need, on their package holiday. 

 

What they can't buy, or build, like elephant shows for example, they beat the owners down to rock bottom price, or they don't bring a coach bus load every day.

 

Chinese are now the majority tourism market in Thailand, and they are using that big market share to their advantage, which is what the Chinese are good at.

 

Raiding the odd business here and there is not going to stop the Chinese foray into the Thailand tourism industry, and frankly speaking, if the Chinese stopped holidaying in Thailand tomorrow, Thailand's tourism industry would be in big big trouble. 

Chinese aren't the only ones doing this. If they're caught, they get in trouble. Thailand may be corrupt, but it's got nothing on Cambodia. You obviously haven't been paying attention to all the news stories of nominees getting in trouble and being prosecuted in the past couple of years. Been all over the news, but mostly in Thai.

 

Chinese make up about 25% of tourists to Thailand. If they were gone tomorrow (and already their numbers are down slightly from a year or two ago) then Thailand would still be OK but would take a hit mainly because there are too many tourism operators who have all their eggs in one basket and decided to rely too much on just one market: China. If they diversified from the beginning they wouldn't feel the same shock.

 

The Chinese certainly do run certain businesses, mainly tourism related, in Thailand but since the expat/tourist market is quite a bit more diversified than other nearby countries, as well as Thai laws being stricter than those in Cambodia you can't quite compare the situation that is occurring in Sihanoukville with anywhere in Thailand. Despite there being quite a few Chinese signs/businesses in Pattaya and Phuket, there are just as many Russian ones. Whereas in SHV, it's Chinese ONLY these days. Russians are all but gone...

[Tomtomtom69]

On 3/31/2019 at 8:44 PM, KhunHeineken said:

That's interesting.  I will Google that.  Never knew about it. 

 

There would be no beach there, as Laos is land locked.  SHV has beaches.  China wouldn't even need cooperation from Cambodia to shut SHV down.  They could just stop the flights from China, and it's all over.

 

The Chinese government wouldn't care about their citizens traveling, but it's all the money leaving China that may concern them, and gambling is big money.

Chinese going to SHV for gambling couldn't care less about beaches...they might as well close them or build walls I don't think anyone would notice.