State of the Art Farming course

[drtreelove]

https://mailchi.mp/nutri-tech/invitation-to-attend-four-day-course-in-yandina-597417?e=38fa71705a

[IsaanAussie]

So Doctor T, are you going to the course?

 

[drtreelove]

No. Can't make it, but I'd love to hear a report if you go. 

 

I posted this knowing that its a long shot for anyone in Thailand to pay big bucks and venture to a course in Austrahlia, but what's remarkable is the course content and list of subject matter for this program. Even if one can't go to the program, the list can be a guideline for self study and modern grower knowledge and practices. 

 

I mean look at this impressive list,  from soil and tissue testing and mineral management, to soil biology, micronutrients and microbes, all the factors that I have come to believe are important for comprehensive, intelligent plant management and growing of quality, high nutrient and pest/disease resistant plants.  Plus course content on human health, which is all related of course. 

 

• Soil & Leaf Tests – analysis and interpretation
• Core Inputs – humates, kelp, microbial inocula and foliars
• The Art & Science of Composting
• Mineral Management – NPK + all essential soil & plant minerals
• Soil Biology – discover the key beneficials in the soil foodweb
• Earthworm Management – restoring the missing link in soil productivity
• Mycorrhizal Fungi – how to regenerate & replace your greatest ally
• Brewing Considerations – how to inexpensively create a microbial workforce
• Microbial Protection – how beneficial microbes can reduce your chemical bill
• Crop & Soil Monitoring – key monitoring tools and guidelines
• Weed Management – strategies to reduce or remove the need for chemicals
• Foliar Fertilising – how to achieve maximum benefit
• Seed Treatment – methods and rewards

[IsaanAussie]

I have been to their courses before. The course content has changed a bit possibly to stay in line as their product range has increased. 

[anon2736434]

Be nice if they could split the courses into sections and sell them online.

[drtreelove]

8 hours ago, Notagain said:

Be nice if they could split the courses into sections and sell them online.

That would be a good service. They may have webinars available. And there are other sources and books for self study on some of these subjects; I don't know how the content differs. 

Soil testing and mineral management:  The Intelligent Gardener by Steve Solomon. and The Ideal Soil by Michael Astera.

Soil Biology, Mycorrhizal Fungi, Microbial Protection:  Teaming With Microbes by Jeff Lowenfels, and www.soilfoodweb.com courses.

The Art and Science of Composting; Many resources and books and different approaches, The Intelligent Gardener, SoilFoodWeb.com, How To Grow More Vegetables by John Jeavons, The Rodale Book of Composting and others.

Plus a lot of websites an online articles. 

[IsaanAussie]

Nutritech is a producer of inoculants etc.. which while not a heavy sell, they do promote through their training courses. Graeme Sait the owner is a great speaker and extremely passionate about the topic. I had the pleasure of assisting in getting a couple of half day seminars organised here in Australia for local farmers at which Graeme spoke. Extremely informative and delivered in laymans language which is very understandable. Anyone attending his courses will get as much information as they can soak in, it is pretty fast paced stuff and there is tonnes of it.

To me it comes down to local environment, crops and conditions. The farm sizes and economics in Thailand are much different to Australia as well. Perhaps what is needed here is to migrate all that knowledge to suit local situations? 

Having said that, It would be of great assistance to me to be able to access localised information without having to try piecing it all together. 

 

[zzaa09]

On 10/15/2018 at 10:24 PM, Notagain said:

Be nice if they could split the courses into sections and sell them online.

Just thinking of that myself.

I presume that these courses might be allowed video content and made available online.

 

A value if presented with a local [Thai farming] thematic.

[IsaanAussie]

7 hours ago, zzaa09 said:

Just thinking of that myself.

I presume that these courses might be allowed video content and made available online.

 

A value if presented with a local [Thai farming] thematic.

Agreed but it would be closer to a miracle than just of value. The cost of localising the course work would be considerable. The level of interest and ultimately the return on investment through course fees or product sales doubtful. 

How many of TV farming members would be interested in buying the courses and the products do you think? What would be the combined annual spend of those people currently? It is all possible but.... ultimately, someone has to pay. 

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by IsaanAussie
correct typing errors.

[IsaanAussie]

What could be achieved is to pool the techniques developed by members. There are sources of most of the ingredients needed available already in Thailand. Perhaps some sort of cooperative scheme? Or establishing pilot trials to develop products? 

[anon2736434]

Sorry to say but whats the point of bringing this knowledge to thailand ? They are not going to do it, its called work and its not free. Until the thai gov allows foreigners the legal right to farm and drops its ridiculous import and tariff's on any modern equipment or technology (even fertilizers) things like this are a waste of time. With china buying up every agricultural product they can get their hands on thailand is losing big time.

[anon2736434]

Also instead of this person selling a handful of courses at 800 dollars much more could be made selling many for 100. Its not like he is the only one who teaches or writes books on these subjects. Most of this material was invented in thailand any way hahaha.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Notagain

[IsaanAussie]

So can I ask what you would like to achieve? 

[scorecard]

17 minutes ago, Notagain said:

Sorry to say but whats the point of bringing this knowledge to thailand ? They are not going to do it, its called work and its not free. Until the thai gov allows foreigners the legal right to farm and drops its ridiculous import and tariff's on any modern equipment or technology (even fertilizers) things like this are a waste of time. With china buying up every agricultural product they can get their hands on thailand is losing big time.

Good point, one important point is that Thais attending and moving in 3 (?) from no knowledge to overload knowledge is not the best appoach.

 

But re-configuring the total content into priorities and then 1 course very 3 (?) months might be more productive, but costs of course a big question mark.

 

Further seems to me knowledge like this is a must-have to move Thailand into 4G farming (or even 3G). The capability to do this needs to sparked by something, a course like this might be the catalyst?

 

 

[drtreelove]

1 hour ago, IsaanAussie said:

What could be achieved is to pool the techniques developed by members. Perhaps some sort of cooperative scheme? Or establishing pilot trials to develop products? 

"Closer to a miracle..." is right in my opinion too.  Personally I think we are closer to Armageddon than to a wide scale acceptance of intelligent environmental practices and land care. 

But in the meantime, I've been working on a retirement hobby interest in exploring this subject: "There are sources of most of the ingredients needed available already in Thailand." And to find ingredients for my version of a complete mineralized organic fertilizer with biological innoculants.  So far it's disappointing in being able to get everything I need, and more expensive than I want, to produce a quality product. 

There are huge obstacles IMO because of Thai standards for truth in advertising and product labeling. What you see on the package ingredients list and what you are told, may be far from the actual ingredients and quality that the vendor is claiming.  Fillers and impurities are common. Manufacturers won't provide an accurate lab analysis or truthful ingredients list because either they have something to hide, and/or they are afraid that someone will copy their formula. 

The one exception I have found is Evolare's (TV Member) wife's family business, The Bonemeal.net company is an up and coming organic materials supplier with high quality products and business integrity. When they have their new factory and warehousing facility completed and product inventory expanded like they have in the works, this will be the company for preferred sourcing of bulk soil amendments and organic fertilizer products.  

 

[anon2736434]

I have lived here long enough to realize the powers that control everything will NEVER change, so I have no desire to achieve anything here as I am not thai and will never have a say in changing anything. The inefficient use of everything from land, water, farming equipment is just plain ignorant. I would bet more water is lost from the irrigation canals that have never been maintained since being built than farmers use as one example. Buying farm equipment ( what little is available) for 3-4 times the cost of my home country is another example. Land in the midwestern usa where I am from, good rich soil is 20% of the cost of the crap you buy here and I OWN it.This is my last year in thailand and will go home to my land and house there and enjoy freedom once again. Looking back over the years of living here not one thing has changed for the better, it has only got worse. I am fortunate I didnt put myself in a position of not being able to return to sanity unlike many others I know here. Thailand falls farther behind every other SE asian country every year in GDP growth. It will only continue to fall. Some people really enjoy living here and thats great, but for me Ive had enough of the BS.

[IsaanAussie]

I wish you well on return to the states and I can understand your frustration with the Thai "culture". But things are changing albeit slowly. There is government support for redeveloping the cooperative nature of village farms and ways they can become more integrated into the "new" agricultural supply chain. Personally I see a positive future for those ready to embrace the changes. The days of subsidies are over and small holding farmers will have to adapt if they want to reach past just growing their own food. 

[anon2736434]

2 minutes ago, IsaanAussie said:

small holding farmers will have to adapt if they want to reach past just growing their own food. 

And therein lies the problem, the young do not want to farm, there is no money to be made in the current system. The big guys will NOT let it happen. Land prices and ownership are the biggest problems. Thailand is #3 in the world wealth inequality index, what does that tell you ? Thailand with its year around growth potential and farmers always lose money no matter what the crop is. If the last 5 years doesnt explain it in simple terms of nothing is going to change I dont know what else would. I sincerely wish you good luck in your endeavors but I dont believe anything will change and Im certainly not going to waste my time and effort here. "You can lead a buffalo to water but you cant make him drink" 

[zzaa09]

6 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

I wish you well on return to the states and I can understand your frustration with the Thai "culture". But things are changing albeit slowly. There is government support for redeveloping the cooperative nature of village farms and ways they can become more integrated into the "new" agricultural supply chain. Personally I see a positive future for those ready to embrace the changes. The days of subsidies are over and small holding farmers will have to adapt if they want to reach past just growing their own food. 

Over the years, I'm beginning to witness the positive changes that are taking place.

Alternative manners in which to conduct their aggie/horticultural operations - large and small.

 

An always present community farming collective has grown substantially, if not quietly, throughout numerous regions. 

[drtreelove]

12 hours ago, Notagain said:

I have lived here long enough to realize the powers that control everything will NEVER change, so I have no desire to achieve anything here as I am not thai and will never have a say in changing anything. The inefficient use of everything from land, water, farming equipment is just plain ignorant. I would bet more water is lost from the irrigation canals that have never been maintained since being built than farmers use as one example. Buying farm equipment ( what little is available) for 3-4 times the cost of my home country is another example. Land in the midwestern usa where I am from, good rich soil is 20% of the cost of the crap you buy here and I OWN it.This is my last year in thailand and will go home to my land and house there and enjoy freedom once again. Looking back over the years of living here not one thing has changed for the better, it has only got worse. I am fortunate I didnt put myself in a position of not being able to return to sanity unlike many others I know here. Thailand falls farther behind every other SE asian country every year in GDP growth. It will only continue to fall. Some people really enjoy living here and thats great, but for me Ive had enough of the BS.

Are you sure you are returning to "sanity"?  How long have you been gone from the US?  I was there until a year ago and didn't find much sanity remaining in American life and leadership. 

[anon2736434]

13 hours ago, drtreelove said:

How long have you been gone from the US?

Just got back 3 months ago, I think you are confusing what I meant. Yes like most western countries there are many problems now with the political situation, but at least i wont get thrown in jail for talking about them. I can also buy most anything I want at a much cheaper price and a warranty that will be honored and not taxed 300%. I also have the right and freedom to speak my mind and vote if i dont agree with someone without being charged with les majeste. I also have the right to a fair trial in a court system that actually exists. Nothing in thailand is cheaper than my home country now unless you consider a 40 baht plate of cheap rice, a few bits of meat and some overcooked vegetables in overused oil. I dont live in california or some other expensive locale. I can buy 1 acre of rich fertile land for less then 90K baht with clean drinkable water, good electricty (cheaper than here/KWH) and internet that works. Buy a concrete block house here made from cheap materials now for 5 million baht, what is it but a block house with cheap plumbing, electrics etc. I can buy a house back home where I live with central air/heat- hot water everywhere, nice bathroms- carpeting etc. for that price that will last 30 years before I have to start doing anything to it and it will increase in value unlike here. Please dont understand me but for me thailand has lost its charm, value and freedom. And if you think things are going to change come feb.(if it happens) you are kidding yourself. I wish my friends who live here and stay well. no hard feelings from me but life is too short to spend it wishing for something that aint gonna happen.

[anon2736434]

On 10/18/2018 at 5:34 PM, zzaa09 said:

An always present community farming collective has grown substantially, if not quietly, throughout numerous regions. 

If this is true why are the rubber farmers, rice, palm, sugar farmers etc. all dealing with record low prices and the gov still giving out money to them ? Just the other day mitr pohl had an article saying the sugar farmers have a bitter pill to swallow this next year due to prices. There is no small farmers making any money only enough to barely provide for their families. The falangs on here that say they make money are full of it. Its easy to say I made X amount on something when you dont say how much it cost you to make it. But its not all the gov. fault, corporate farming is the only efficient way to feed 7 billion people. Where I live in the us if you are not farming a minimum of 2000 acres its not worth it. your are working for free.

[IsaanAussie]

I don't believe that Thailand is unique in today's globalised world. Price competition from developing nations has forced prices down. We live in a debt based world economy. Trade wars are looming. These are all part of life today, unfortunately. In terms of this topic, lets focus on the challenges facing the farmer.

Conventional farming practices have depleted our soils and food nutritional value has diminished. Input costs are rising and returns declining. Labour availability is getting worse and cost increasing. Things must change, we must find answers and that means acquiring new knowledge.

[anon2736434]

4 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

Things must change, we must find answers and that means acquiring new knowledge.

4 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

Conventional farming practices have depleted our soils and food nutritional value has diminished

Yes things must change but a country has to be able to want to. Perfect example vietnam

produces twice the amount of rice per rai at half the cost of thailand. and so do many other countries and I doubt their soil conditions etc are much diferent than here. Another example is the burning after harvest of waste material, thais know its good to till it back into the soil but hey its easier to throw a match out there and burn it so they can go lay in the hammock. In the usa and many other countries we learned the lessons of not taking care of your soil many many years ago thru such things as crop rotation, no till methods, crp programs etc. As much as I dislike the monopolies created by a few seed giants thru gmos' and such the sad fact is you are not going to feed 7-8 billion people growing little organic plots of food. You can do it on a small scale to feed yourself but thats about it and I like doing that myself. Hell thailand wont even ban paraquat or chloropyrifos. In my home country you use as little chemicals as possible, they cost money and kill your ROI, let alone damage your crop and land. I always laugh at people when they claim poor people/countries eat so healthy when the sad fact is they eat the worst contaminated food in the world.   

[drtreelove]

In addition to the subject course of study in my original post, here is another positive movement:

 

https://www.gofundme.com/worlds-most-nutritious-food

 

CLW, this is the funding I was trying to hook you up with for your masters program research project. 

[IsaanAussie]

2 hours ago, drtreelove said:

In addition to the subject course of study in my original post, here is another positive movement:

 

https://www.gofundme.com/worlds-most-nutritious-food

 

CLW, this is the funding I was trying to hook you up with for your masters program research project. 

How about a soil and tissue test lab being funded through this sort of program Dr T? 

[drtreelove]

On 10/20/2018 at 9:04 AM, IsaanAussie said:

How about a soil and tissue test lab being funded through this sort of program Dr T? 

Thats a good point. There is some serious craziness around the soil testing systems and various approaches.  You would think that in this day and age with the sophisticated science and technology, a consistent scientific approach would have been found.  But far from it!  Opinions and politics, special interests and economics rule, not necessarily sound science and a consensus on methods of extraction and analysis and recommendations.  Here's an example, from an Albrecht cation balancing influenced agronomist: 

 

Hi All-

Subject: Request for Applications: Seeking Laboratories to Conduct Soil Analyses  

This just came in from the Soil Health Institute. The test parameters are described at the first link below.

Note that they are trying to find out what is a healthy soil, but are unclear on what exactly they are looking for. What will a healthy soil do that an unhealthy one won't do? Produce more yield in bins and bushels? More protein? More simple carbs? What?

 

Note on Table 1 that they want to measure CEC, Base Saturation, extractable Ca, Mg, K, and Na plus extractable Fe, Mn, Cu, Zn, and of course P. The omission of S and B is naive. Those two are probably the most serious limiting factor in all US agricultural soils, and they are deficient to severely deficient in 90% of the soil tests I see.

 

Their expert panel also doesn't understand soil test methods.

Extractable K, Ca, Mg, Na

For soil pH > 7.2: use ammonium acetate extractant; For soil pH < 7.2: use Mehlich 3 extractant

We know from much experience that using neutral ammonium acetate for extracting these bases from a soil with pH>7 will dissolve free carbonates in the soil and can give a false high reading for any of these bases, and hence a false high calculation of CEC and %Base Saturation. To avoid that problem, the pH of the ammonium acetate solution must be higher than the pH of the soil. I could go on; they are going to use dry combustion to measure N? What test is that? Every suggested chemical measurement on this table appears screwy in some way.

 

"The Institute convened a “blue ribbon panel” of experts from the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), several universities, and the private sector (see list of experts below) to develop consensus on how each indicator should be measured."

 

Is that how science is done in 2018, by consensus? They will probably piss away a million dollars on this and end up no closer to knowing what makes a healthy soil than when they started. It's sad, this level of ignorance from an expert panel.

[IsaanAussie]

Well Dr T, little wonder that people who make a living supplying services may see their fees diminish if they supply real answers. Or they lack the confidence to define a prescription solution.

I mentioned before I was involved in some Nutritech (Graeme Sait) training sessions to dairy, vegetable and beef farms here in Australia. We tested soil, plant tissues and the farm made compost that was to be used to regenerate the soil. These were tested by a laboratory and results sent to the Nutritech agronomists along with the planned planting. They reported on the missing nutrients which were then mixed with the compost and spread. Pretty simply really. 

[anon2736434]

Yeah pretty simple really you say your report is right and the others are all wrong because you dont agree with it. Great science there.

[IsaanAussie]

I didn't intend any comparison or judgement to others. What we did was demonstrate a simple means of determining what was needed to suit a particular situation. A specific prescription based on the actual soil condition, what the nutrition level was of what was being grown, the composted material which was to be added, all against the nutritional needs of the planned crop and to improve the soil health.