Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[pontious]

6 minutes ago, Pib said:

For those who have been using embassy income letters they definitely need to get it NLT than December even if that means getting it earlier than they normally do, because right now is not a normal situation. 

 

Get the letter and hopefully it will be accepted as usual at your servicing immigration office even for those folks who can't apply for their extension renewal until sometime in Jun 19. 

 

Surely (hopefully) way before Jun 19 we will have clear guidance from HQ TI regarding the Bt65K/40K monthly income option when no embassy income letter is possible.

 

I agree - they will not be able to say Embassy letter when they know that we cannot get them. They could of course say nothing and that would leave people only with the 4/8 option. I also cannot see there will be a different rule for oz, Dutch Austrian blah blah citizens who it seems will continue with there letters. It will all get sorted out by June 2019 [ hopefully ]

 

[Langsuan Man]

Thai Immigration really only has only one option

 

They will have to allow the same type of documentation of income or savings like they do for an O-A that is obtained in your home country.  If a bank statement, brokerage statement, etc. or anything else can be accepted by the Thai Embassy / Consulate overseas the same should be accepted here in country.  Or change the income requirement to zero and we know that is not going to happen 

 

Like most things here in Thailand there has been an over reaction to this potential problem and once again someone made a decision that impacts thousands of expats without thinking it all the way through.  We will never know if this was a US Embassy decision or was instituted by Thai Immigration but if the past is any guide the culprit is more than likely some faceless Thai bureaucrat 

 

 

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Langsuan Man said:

Thai Immigration really only has only one option

 

They will have to allow the same type of documentation of income or savings like they do for an O-A that is obtained in your home country.  If a bank statement, brokerage statement, etc. or anything else can be accepted by the Thai Embassy / Consulate overseas the same should be accepted here in country.  Or change the income requirement to zero and we know that is not going to happen 

 

Like most things here in Thailand there has been an over reaction to this potential problem and once again someone made a decision that impacts thousands of expats without thinking it all the way through.  We will never know if this was a US Embassy decision or was instituted by Thai Immigration but if the past is any guide the culprit is more than likely some faceless Thai bureaucrat 

 

 

You're on to something but you're also very much NOT onto something.

An O-A visa and a retirement extension in Thailand are NOT the same thing!

They actually have different rules for acceptance and different features in practice.

So sorry, I think you're indulging in wishful thinking. 

Any changes (or not changes) are going to be about Thai immigration in Thailand and nothing to do with O-A visa policies abroad. 

[elviajero]

5 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Where did Thai immigration say you could use the 65,000 pension fund income without a letter from the embassy?

The published ‘police orders’ (2014) states you have to prove income, it does not say that proof can only come from an embassy, or even mention the letter as a requirement. So based on their own published rules they could waive the embassy letter.

[Langsuan Man]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're on to something but you're also very much NOT onto something.

An O-A visa and a retirement extension in Thailand are NOT the same thing!

They actually have different rules for acceptance and different features in practice.

So sorry, I think you're indulging in wishful thinking. 

Any changes (or not changes) are going to be about Thai immigration in Thailand and nothing to do with O-A visa policies abroad. 

Income is income, we are just talking about how to prove it, if income can be proved overseas in one way, then why can it not be proven the same way here in country ?

Edited October 28, 2018 by Langsuan Man

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, pontious said:

I agree - they will not be able to say Embassy letter when they know that we cannot get them. They could of course say nothing and that would leave people only with the 4/8 option. I also cannot see there will be a different rule for oz, Dutch Austrian blah blah citizens who it seems will continue with there letters. It will all get sorted out by June 2019 [ hopefully ]

 

Huh?!?

Of course they can continue to demand embassy letters regardless.

Thai immigration and foreign embassies are separate entities.

It's not really their problem if our embassies don't play their game.

People still have the option of bank method seasoned or the elite card. 

I'm not saying they will or they won't accommodate people without embassy letters. I'm simply stating the obvious -- they are not obligated to do so and they're certainly not obligated to  provide policy clarity in any kind of rushed timetable.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Langsuan Man said:

Income is income, we are just talking about how to prove it, if income can be proved overseas in one way, then why can it not be proven the same way here on country

Can be doesn't mean it WILL be. The embassy system and Thai immigration are not the same section of the Thai government. 

[Langsuan Man]

16 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Can be doesn't mean it WILL be. The embassy system and Thai immigration are not the same section of the Thai government. 

Yes, but they both come under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, who set the rules worldwide

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Langsuan Man said:

Yes, but they both come under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, who set the rules worldwide

I don't think that's actually correct but would be happy if someone with credible knowledge can confirm or refute. 

[elviajero]

34 minutes ago, Langsuan Man said:

Yes, but they both come under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, who set the rules worldwide

They don’t. Immigration comes under the Ministry of Interior.

 

Obviously the ministry’s work closely.

[JackThompson]

9 hours ago, JLCrab said:

I would like to do the O-A visa but +/- 6 weeks in the US is not really feasible for me.

...

I would really like to do the O-A but 6 weeks in the USA to comfortably get it done is a big problem when I have no place to stay for most of that time other than hotels and with a rental car.

How about overnight in LA every 2 years?  Granted, it was a better option when one could do it in Hawaii.

 

I'm in a similar situation with docs - too young for SS.  Will they accept business statements of revenue / WOE to back up the foreign bank-deposits?  Or will they just want to see the bank-deposits.  We will see.

 

7 hours ago, david555 said:

but you can put an Elite visa in a nice frame on the wall that is also nice to look where your money is  

More like, put a picture of some top-level immigration folks' homes and cars, to see where your money went.  It's similar with agents - and no "hassles with immigration" that the Elite prevents, for a fraction of the cost, and paid in annual increments - and at least you only bought a hood-ornament or similar. 

 

Crossing my fingers the "show income coming in to a Thai bank" method is allowed, and can be a yearly-total of 400K/800K brought in - not some "every month" system.  If I switch from the Non-O-ME to an extension, I'll be doing my best not to hand no more than 1900 for the annual-extension.

Edited October 28, 2018 by JackThompson

[DJ54]

Saw today when reading US regarding average amount people

get from US Social Security. The monthly requirement looks 

to be about $2100 USD. 

 

If chart art is correct showing average SSN for 2019. Not a lot

 meet that goal.

[HAL9000]

13 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I don't see that on this page for extensions based upon marriage to Thai. https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_18

Perhaps you could post a link for the page you were looking at.

Yes. You are on the correct link page. Near the bottom you see this section:

 

Required Documents

1. Thai Sibling case
2. Thai wife case
3. Thai husband case

 

All three of these cases are hot links you can click to get the three PDF files named child.pdf, wife.pdf, and husband.pdf. All three of them are not working and redirect to this link: https://www.immigration.go.th/content/not_found

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, Pib said:

If Thai Immigration ultimately ends up with only allowing the Bt800K/400K in a Thai bank option or a monthly transfer of Bt65K/40K option into a Thai bank, for those individuals who can't swing the large deposit option and must go with the monthly transfer option but don't actually spend anything close to Bt65K/40K per month and don't like maintaining a large sum in Thailand then they are going to have to seriously rotating money in and out of Thailand.   

 

Like maybe after three monthly transfers send X-amount of the unspent money back to the home country so it can be used to help refill the home country bank account to continue the monthly transfers to Thailand.  Yes, a round-and-round type thing.  Send it back every 6, 4, or 2 months...every month...up to you how often in order to maintain the rotation.

...

Thanks for the chart and transfer-experience.  But keep in mind, if showing your bank-book for income-proof (assuming /hoping/ this is allowed in the future in lieu of income letters), best that you are pulling out some wads of cash and putting them in another account (not used for the extension), then sending back from there.  We may need to pretend we actually need as much to live here, as they want to see coming in.

[fforest1]

On 10/26/2018 at 6:22 PM, JackThompson said:

Add up what they will spend the rest of their lives here, and it adds up to much more. Many thousands of Thai's incomes over decades are at stake.  And what to do with all those condos and apt-buildings full of retirees? 

 

Got to ask why TI is doing this.  Because, let's face it, retirees (even poorer ones) are not starting riots or creating problems in Thailand.  Someone is paying for this change in policy. 

 

Some think the goal is to pump-up banks with higher balances and more foreign-income flows.  I think it's more likely being done to increase agent-business, which translates directly to money in certain pockets.  But maybe it's because a nearby foreign-power paid them to do it, and seem intent on taking over this entire region of the world.

 

Too bad our embassy(ies) cannot just do a "go fund me" to fill up some suitcases of cash, so as to out-bid whichever other factions are paying for this policy-change. 

This is a good post.....The why? Is a very interesting question...If there was a well thought out plan to replace the existing consulate income honor system,OK fair enough I guess but from the looks of things its all a complete mess...

The policy change came first the effects on people looks like its a after thought....

I just dont think they see expats really having much of a place in Thailand 4.0...

Heck they just recently bent over backwards to create a whole new class of visas just for Thailand 4.0 that does a good job of excluding most expats....

Face it folks the expats desirability rating has been dropping fast around these parts....  

[JackThompson]

(also @fforest1)

 

On 10/27/2018 at 11:10 PM, liberty9133 said:

Thailand is increasingly throwing its lot in with China. I see this as a HUGE mistake. China may experience a huge contraction very soon. This may explain why Thailand's dictatorship wants to end western immigration.

And given agents can buy "money-free" extensions easily, and brag about it in their ads, consider how little money it would take for a regional-power like China to buy policy.

 

And I agree it is a huge mistake - similar to another time in history with another regional power - and likely a similar end - but perhaps without the US blocking the retribution (which the UK wanted), next time.

 

Even if things don't go to the extreme, still sad we won't be here to help keep Thais afloat when China's economy contracts - as it inevitably will.  They've been used to the desired effect - wrecked the middle-class in the West for the big-corps by undermining wages - but they didn't "open up" as predicted by the outsourcing-to-China proponents.  And now that pay is the toilet, the manufacturing can return to domestic, at the desired "hand-to-mouth" pay-scales.

 

22 hours ago, Jingthing said:

The people doing fraud will definitely pushed out IF there is a crackdown on visa agent corruption. 

I can imagine that system ending if a Chinese diplomat asked, "How much do you make from agent-extensions?" got a figure, and offered 50% more to rid the region of more settled-Westerners - but the local office-heads and other middle-men in the agent-pay chain would be furious.

Edited October 28, 2018 by JackThompson

[PAWNEESE]

Jeez .. its getting complicated. One of my cunning plans to be considered was to keep 800,000 baht permanently in my Thai bank just to renew my visa every year. And make a Will in Thailand to benefit my son in the UK.  But I just read some posters in this topic say its difficult for THEM to take out money .. so what chance would my son have of getting Kbank to send him 800,000 baht to the UK ... direct or via the lawyers I get to do the will ..... ? Anyone got experience of that situation ? A will just for cash to be sent overseas a waste ? Plus I would have an average of 300,000 baht in my every day account. So a million plus all told

 

Maybe spending it after visa renewal and top up 9 months later more betterer.  

 

I guess he could fly here for a few holidays with 800,000 spending money waiting that he cant get sent to him in UK.  But not easy for him me thinks. If I mention wills and me going one day he gets tearful  .. ah somebody likes me ???? .. so coming here retracing his dads steps spooky/difficult.

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by PAWNEESE
Blank space removed

[Jingthing]

14 minutes ago, DJ54 said:

Saw today when reading US regarding average amount people

get from US Social Security. The monthly requirement looks 

to be about $2100 USD. 

 

If chart art is correct showing average SSN for 2019. Not a lot

 meet that goal.

Yes, but at present anyway, the COMBINATION method exists. So a person could claim income of 400K combined with a Thai bank account of 400K. 

[Luckysilk]

12 minutes ago, PAWNEESE said:

Jeez .. its getting complicated. One of my cunning plans to be considered was to keep 800,000 baht permanently in my Thai bank just to renew my visa every year. And make a Will in Thailand to benefit my son in the UK.  But I just read some posters in this topic say its difficult for THEM to take out money .. so what chance would my son have of getting Kbank to send him 800,000 baht to the UK ... direct or via the lawyers I get to do the will ..... ? Anyone got experience of that situation ? A will just for cash to be sent overseas a waste ?

 

Maybe spending it after visa renewal and top up 9 months later more betterer.  

 

I guess he could fly here for a few holidays with 800,000 spending money waiting that he cant get sent to him in UK.  But not easy for him me thinks. If I mention wills and me going one day he gets tearful  .. ah somebody likes me ???? .. so coming here retracing his dads steps spooky/difficult.

 

One option may be to obtain two ATM cards from BKK Bank - I have one for domestic withdrawals and one for international. Give your son the international card & PIN. Both work BTW but I think there is a 200 baht per card charge per year.

 

Luckily for me I hope to not be in Thailand much longer as we only came here to close my wife's family business and for our youngest to finish University. I've never liked the place and am counting the days. I did the 800k because frankly I didn't want the embassy or a Thai IO to see any paperwork with my net worth for the monthly option.

 

I will probably just withdraw it and walk to Dee Money and transfer it offshore. Your son can send money via them if he's in Thailand. (I think, not sure if they allow tourists to send or not - worth checking)

 

I met a guy some time ago and he was told by his late Father he had done a Thai Will but it disappeared (burnt by the Thai GF most likely)  he was in a real mess trying to sell his Father's condo. Hired a couple of lawyers to handle it but it seemed like a real nightmare.

[Maestro]

10 hours ago, johnjohn2 said:

Automated Clearing House International format

 

https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Personal/Other-Services/Transfers/Transferring-Into-Thailand/Transfer-money-from-US-to-Thailand-via-Bangkok-Bank-NewYork-branch

The acronym ACHI is not currently part of the banking jargon. Even the website bangkokbank.com does not mention it anywhere and I suggest that therefore we should not use it on ThaiVisa.

[Maestro]

10 hours ago, JLCrab said:

I will presume K. Galt purchased his 20-year Elite Visa when he was less than 50 years old. I am approaching 70 years old so there is that actuarial consideration. Even if the 20 year Elite is less per year, I may be much more able to have US$15000 in cash by next years renewal than US$30,000.

 

Also I do not agree with the notion that the 800K baht deposit for the retirement extension is still yours. If you intend to stay for the duration in Thailand, it is really gone except that you might leave it to someone in your will.

Even without a will, Thai law provides for legal heirs. Of course, like in any other country, the heirs need to know about the existence of the deceased's assets in order to be able to claim their share of the inheritance.

 

Civil and Commercial Code, section 1599 ff.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Hgt14i_8TbTRx3mSu4c5WIB6rvYTe1Z3/view

[DogNo1]

SnakeBite:  The most recent three months of my American bank statements have been accepted at Chaeng Wattana for the past ten years.  Unless the proof of income requirements are changed, you should be OK just presenting them.

[elviajero]

9 minutes ago, DogNo1 said:

SnakeBite:  The most recent three months of my American bank statements have been accepted at Chaeng Wattana for the past ten years.  Unless the proof of income requirements are changed, you should be OK just presenting them.

You’ve applied for a 1 year extension of stay just showing 3 months statements from a US bank and nothing else?

[Maestro]

9 hours ago, elviajero said:

There is nothing in the current police orders (2014) that specifies it must be a letter from the embassy but, as a general rule, that's the only proof immigration will accept. But based on their own written/published rules they could waive the embassy letter.

1. Application form

2. Copy of applicant’s passport

3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends; and/or

4. Funds deposit certificate issued by a bank in Thailand and a copy of a bankbook

5. Only in the case of Criterion (6), the applicant must submit documents equivalent to Clauses 1-4 stated above.
   ...

1

There is nothing in the police order that specifies the form or format in which immigration must accept evidence of income, thus leaving it to immigration to establish an apposite procedure.

[elviajero]

2 minutes ago, Maestro said:

There is nothing in the police order that specifies the form or format in which immigration must accept evidence of income, thus leaving it to immigration to establish an apposite procedure.

Correct.

[JLCrab]

39 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Even without a will, Thai law provides for legal heirs.

Thank you. I have no legal heirs in Thailand or anywhere else.

[JLCrab]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

How about overnight in LA every 2 years?  Granted, it was a better option when one could do it in Hawaii.

The additional cost of arranging a trip for to me to qualify for the O-A every 2 years -- rather than just my typical trip -- would pay for a good chunk of the 5 year Thailand Elite Visa right there.

 

BTW if one looks at the Net Present Value (NPV) of purchasing a 5-year Elite Visa every 4 years versus a 20 year visa all paid year one year one, the NPV brings that cost more in line. In my financial circumstances the NPV is very real as to what monies I would have and value 15 years hence.

Edited October 28, 2018 by JLCrab

[Maestro]

9 hours ago, Thaidream said:

...Yes- they did grandfather those who were here on a current retirement extension but not those on the marriage extension.  IMO they would be more inclined to raise the age to 60-65 than the amount.

 

Historically, the qualifying age for the retirement extension has been reduced twice, first from 60 years to 55, later to  50 years.

 

What circumstances might induce immigration to increase the qualifying age again?

[Maestro]

9 hours ago, giddyup said:

The OP I originally responded to said this: 

 

"Years ago I transferred money into my Thai bank to meet the immigration requirements for my extension's of stay. I used this method for several years. In 2013 I tried to repatriate some of the excess money I had here. The bank stated they could not send any money out because I had no work permit. They refused even after I showed them the receipts of the transactions into Thailand.

 

In my experience, the money they are requiring to be kept in Thai banks will not be easily repatriated, if needed".

 

This gives the impression that the Thai banks won't allow you to transfer money out even if you prove it came from a foreign source.

In my opinion, it was clearly a case of the particular bank employee or the particular bank branch incorrectly interpreting the rules or directives of the Bank of Thailand.

[JimmyJ]

11 hours ago, boshidoson said:

Many interesting comments here on this development. Here is my story.

 

Years ago I transferred money into my Thai bank to meet the immigration requirements for my extension's of stay. I used this method for several years. In 2013 I tried to repatriate some of the excess money I had here. The bank stated they could not send any money out because I had no work permit. They refused even after I showed them the receipts of the transactions into Thailand.

 

In my experience, the money they are requiring to be kept in Thai banks will not be easily repatriated, if needed.

Can you reveal what the bank was?

 

And was the money deposited via bank transfer from your country to your Thai bank, or another method?