Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[elviajero]

42 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Sorry, but I doubt this number being so tiny.

Just on Pattaya there are hundreds of expats who have invested in condos for rents, and many of them didn't have to bring money in Thailand for years.

Also in my condo only there are at least 5 guys who could easily live from dividends they get from the Thai Market. How many in Pattaya or Thailand? No idea, but hundreds at least.

Most of them are here on Retirement or Marriage Extension, as most readers of this thread.

Your "should be" or "is excepted" are not matching how TI see that.

The people you describe are a tiny percentage of expats. Less than 1% IMO.

 

If immigration insist on confirmation of funds from abroad before issuing a visa/extension it proves that is where they expect the funds you’re living on should come from generally.

 

You don’t see it how immigration see it, but how you see it and want it to be.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, garyk said:

So they target the U.S., UK, and the Australians that have a SS pension. 

 

 

On that point, I've been meaning to ask...

 

The Chinese and Japanese expat populations here supposedly are very large. But I don't think I've ever heard or read peep one about Chinese or Japanese expats getting income affidavits from their embassies here for marriage or retirement extensions of stay. Anyone know if they also are in this business? And if so, wonder if they're likewise being impacted?

 

 

 

[HHTel]

3 hours ago, garyk said:

It is a huge windfall

You're obviously not an economist or a mathematician.  I think your 20K extra people having a lump sum in the bank for 3 months is a little overstated.

However, as a huge windfall for the banks, if you read the link provided by the BOT you will see that the figures are in billions even trillions of baht.

How much of a difference do you think it makes if (using your figure of 20K people) of 16 billion for 3 months over a year.

The real figures are of course, much less than that.  3,000 income letters as stated by the British Embassy.

 

Of course, putting it in your account it represents an absolute fortune, but then again you don't have trillions of baht passing through your account do you?

[ocddave]

Going to start the ball rolling now, just got approval for a bank account at SCB, will work on setting that up and then doing a Transferwise to that account to cover the needed funds. I guess I'll just let the funds sit there while I am here with my wife and child, as things have changed, so I may be staying longer than I thought (was going to be just 5yrs). I am due for my next 1yr extension of stay the first week of March, so I think I will still get the Income Letter to cover myself, I just don't want to be left with no options if something goes sideways. Better safe than sorry, my family needs me, I can't take any chances.

[Mike Teavee]

5 hours ago, elviajero said:

The people you describe are a tiny percentage of expats. Less than 1% IMO.

 

If immigration insist on confirmation of funds from abroad before issuing a visa/extension it proves that is where they expect the funds you’re living on should come from generally.

 

You don’t see it how immigration see it, but how you see it and want it to be.

Added to this a (IMHO large) proportion of that < 1% will have (or have no problem depositing) 800K in their Bank Account.

 

However, I think that the proportion of people doing Extensions based on being Married & earning their income in Thailand is much higher so I do believe that they will (have to) accept monies coming from inside Thailand & supported by a Thai income tax statements as one of their valid proofs of income.

 

So I think we'll end up with the acceptable methods being:-

• Proof of External income - Letter from Thai Bank stating deposits totalling > 200K/150K  over the previous 3 months (I know this is different than the current 65/40K but if overhauling the system why not take the opportunity to tweak the numbers) 
• Proof of Internal income - Thai Tax Statement
• Confirmation of deposit - 800/400K  (Wouldn't be surprised if this didn't go to >1M/500k 

Only people this would seem to exclude would be:-

• Those who choose not to bring funds over - I can't see Thai Immigration acknowledging these even exist but if they did, would take the view that it's the individual's choice to not be able to meet the criteria 
• Those who do not have the funds to bring over 

There will always be ways to skirt around the rules but as these are discovered they will also be clamped down on to the detriment of those following the rules. 

E.G...

• Thai Immigration suspects people are "Re-cycling" the same 65K
• They start asking for proof for where the money comes from
• Obviously they don't have the knowledge/bandwidth to be able to understand all sources so limit what they will accept
• Results in more people with genuine proof of income not being able to use it

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Mike Teavee

[esqy]

• Liars figure and figures lie.  Cruel statistics about social security and retirement in USA:

Are Britain and Australia in better shape? 

 

At present, the average retiree gets $1,422 a month in Social Security benefits. But because recipients will be getting a 2.8% cost-of-living adjustment (COLA) next year, that figure will rise to $1,461 a month. This means that the average senior will get $17,532 in benefits for the year. And while that's certainly better than nothing, it's hardly enough to live on.

 

In fact, if you were to set aside a modest $300 a month over a 30-year period, and invest that money at an average annual 7% return (which is actually a few percentage points below the stock market's average), you'd wind up with $340,000 to your name. If you were to then plan on withdrawing about 4% of your nest egg each year in retirement, which many financial advisors recommend doing, you'd boost your annual income by $13,600 per year. And that, combined with your Social Security benefits, could do the trick in helping you maintain a reasonably desirable standard of living.

https://www.fool.com/retirement/2018/10/16/heres-the-average-social-security-benefit-for-2019.aspx

 

$17,352 SS + $13,600 Nestegg = $30,952 income before taxes and you would be taxed on 85% of SS and pay about $120 for medicare a month

Edited November 4, 2018 by esqy

[JLCrab]

8 hours ago, Thaidream said:

The point is that many people live in Thailand perfectly legal- and get their income from various  small business operations they have opened- I know some people who have  small resorts; other have  markets; some have  bars/restaurants- and have used the Embassy Letter to  report their income. 

Which means, at least for Americans, that they falsely swore that their claimed monthly income came "from sources in the United States."

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, JLCrab said:

Which means, at least for Americans, that they falsely swore that their claimed monthly income came "from sources in the United States.

No- it means the US Embassy Letter was not  correct as no other Embassy letters  have this statement nor does the Police Order indicate it. In addition, I can walk into the US Embassy right now and in the future and declare my income on a blank affidavit without the source of my income . The current Police Order says what it says for a reason and that is because they want inclusion not exclusion.

Of course- a person  could take 65K every month and have it transferred to London every month and then have it transferred back- makes absolutely no sense. Or Thai Imm can simply have people prove their income amount and source including those with 800K sitting in a Thai bank.

The more restrictive Thai Imm makes it- the more problems they create for themselves and for future  married and retired people.

[JLCrab]

I did about 10 income Affidavits for Extension via Retirement purposes and I do not remember a US Consular Official ever asking before affixing his/her signature and seal whether the information that I am swearing to on this affidavit is MOSTLY true.

[Thaidream]

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

You don’t see it how immigration see it, but how you see it and want it to be.

Actually- I do see it as Thai Imm sees it  because I know what is in the Police Order and so do you because you have quoted the police order many times.  If Thai Imm wanted to exclude  people- they would have changed the order .

 

Once you start making everything and everyone suspect and refuse to accept  genuine evidence of income source (pension letters, company letters  backed by a bank statement -foreign or domestic)  as well as  eliminate  legitimate people running a small business in Thailand  chaos is created.  Then  the retiree who has 800K in the bank  is asked to  show their income stream and  many do not have  65K per month to live on. Where does it stop.  

 

The more ways to show 65K income/40K Income is better for everyone and Thailand in general.  It has nothing to do with how I want it to be- It is how everyone should want it to be because that is what  is fair and equitable. You have to stand up for everyone

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

did about 10 income Affidavits for Extension via Retirement purposes and I do not remember a US Consular Official ever asking before affixing his/her signature and seal whether the information that I am swearing to on this affidavit is MOSTLY true.

I  have no idea what you are talking about-  I can walk into  the US Embassy today-  or next year and  file a blank affidavit stating my income and swear to it- My income can come from any source.  The Blank affidavit example is on the US Embassy Website.  I have used them before  

 

My point is simply the more restrictive Thai Imm  becomes for people the  more people will have a hard time  -even though they have the required income.  I choose to wish for the best.

[JLCrab]

5 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I  have no idea what you are talking about-

You have said that is OK to lie on a sworn US affidavit if you disagree with the premises as to what is asked on the affidavit to be sworn.

[mogandave]

I  have no idea what you are talking about- 

Really? What he was talking about was people lying on the affidavits.

[Thaidream]

22 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

ou have said that is OK to lie on a sworn US affidavit if you disagree with the premises as to what is asked on the affidavit to be sworn.

It is too early to get into a pissing contest-

 

Go the Embassy Website and pull up the general affidavit and look at it  if I had  income coming in from Thailand- I would file that affidavit- state my income and go to Thai Imm- 

I have used it before...

[JLCrab]

11 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

It is too early to get into a pissing contest-   <snip> and go to Thai Imm- 

 

But that doesn't mean, even if they have in the past, that Thai IMM would accept the US blank affidavit form for extension purposes versus the boilerplate form.

 

As for the pissing contest, it's pretty much over as you feel that it is OK for your friends with bars and guest houses in Thailand with their income from Thailand to lie on their US income affidavit that their money comes from sources in the US whether the US form is incorrect or not even though I would guess that a few lawyers at the US Embassy - Bangkok had a look at that form before it was posted on the website.

Edited November 4, 2018 by JLCrab

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, JLCrab said:

But that doesn't mean, even if they have in the past, that Thai IMM would accept the US blank affidavit form for extension purposes versus the boiler[plate form.

 

As for the pissing contest, it's pretty much over as you feel that it is OK for your friends with btrs and guest houses in Thailand to lie on their US income affidavit that their money comes from sources in the US whether the US form is incorrect pr not even though I would guess that a few lawyers at the Embassy had a look at that form before it was posted on the website.

I have no idea what Thai Imm will accept in the future- no do you.

 

I never advocated lying on the form- I said the form was not structure correctly  but I understood why someone would use it if they had to. However- i pointed out that there is an added form- a general affidavit which could have been used and would have been acceptable at the time - I have used it in the past and it was accepted. However- many people do not know this and that is why they used the Income Affidavit.

 

I will leave it at that- I don't accuse people of anything-

 

I really don't care who used what before. I only care about what Thai Imm will accept in the future. 

[JLCrab]

Good night, Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are.

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Good night, Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are

Goodnight  and good luck!!

[bkk6060]

10 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

On that point, I've been meaning to ask...

 

The Chinese and Japanese expat populations here supposedly are very large. But I don't think I've ever heard or read peep one about Chinese or Japanese expats getting income affidavits from their embassies here for marriage or retirement extensions of stay. Anyone know if they also are in this business? And if so, wonder if they're likewise being impacted?

 

 

 

Add Koreans.

I know many as I play golf with them and every last one of them use agents.

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

Actually- I do see it as Thai Imm sees it  because I know what is in the Police Order and so do you because you have quoted the police order many times.  If Thai Imm wanted to exclude  people- they would have changed the order .

 

Once you start making everything and everyone suspect and refuse to accept  genuine evidence of income source (pension letters, company letters  backed by a bank statement -foreign or domestic)  as well as  eliminate  legitimate people running a small business in Thailand  chaos is created.  Then  the retiree who has 800K in the bank  is asked to  show their income stream and  many do not have  65K per month to live on. Where does it stop.  

 

The more ways to show 65K income/40K Income is better for everyone and Thailand in general.  It has nothing to do with how I want it to be- It is how everyone should want it to be because that is what  is fair and equitable. You have to stand up for everyone

The post you quoted came from @elviajeronot me, but as you did quote me I'll spout my view ???? 

 

It's human nature to view things from our own point of view & how we want them to be, especially if it has a personal (& significant) impact on us.

 

The more ways to show 65/40K income may be better for a minority of Expats & may even be better for Thailand in general (Not going to discuss the negative/inflation impact of foreign capital influx here) BUT it would certainly be worse for Thai Immigration & as a knock on effect worse for the majority of Expats following a "Simpler" model (if only for the length of queues doing your extensions, a problem that can be solved agreed but a problem none the less).

 

So my question to you would be, why do you believe the rules should be made in such a way to support those who choose to not bring their income into Thailand & why shouldn't those individuals change their ways to fit in with the rules (or what most replies seem to think will be) & bring this income into Thailand... ... ... Should the Mountain come to Mohammed?

Edited November 5, 2018 by Mike Teavee

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

I  have no idea what you are talking about-  I can walk into  the US Embassy today-  or next year and  file a blank affidavit stating my income and swear to it- My income can come from any source.  The Blank affidavit example is on the US Embassy Website.  I have used them before  

 

My point is simply the more restrictive Thai Imm  becomes for people the  more people will have a hard time  -even though they have the required income.  I choose to wish for the best.

But would Thai Immigration accept this "Blank" affidavit or would they want to see the standard one that includes the statement about income coming from the US?

[Thaidream]

13 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

So my question to you would be, why do you believe the rules should be made in such a way to support those who choose to not bring their income into Thailand & why shouldn't those individuals change their ways to fit in with the rules (or what most replies seem to think will be) & bring this income into Thailand... ... ... Should the Mountain come to Mohammed?

My apology for not quoting properly-

 

Mike- I bring at least 65K into Thailand each month and have already done it  for November and it is only the 5th.  I have  several US accounts- when I need money I go to a Thai ATM- and get what I need-  Why should I or anyone have to transfer the money into Thailand  via  Swift- Tranferwise or other when there is no  logical reason to do it nor does the Police Order say I have to do it.  I  place xx amount in my wife's  bank account and keep some pocket money.

 

I could take the 65K  and deposit it into a Thai Bank and then transfer it into  my wife's account. I could have 65K transferred to  her account or my account from the US. Why?  Thai Imm seems to be interested in proving one actually has a guaranteed income.   I can show them my income letter from US Social Security and another Government Pension; I can show them my US Bank Account  which shows the exact amount of direct deposit which will match my 2 letters of proof.  The bank account shows where the money is debited to include the exact location in Thailand where the money  is debited. I can show the Debit cards and i can even show the  ATM slips.  Some people say- that  takes too much time  for Thai Imm to look at. It doesn't  Four pages in all which proves immediately what needs to be proved ( They asked for this proof before- took 1-2 minutes for the Thai Imm to understand and accept it)

In addition, the Police Order states evidence of income- it does not say the income has to be in Thailand   I have a whole  desk filled with Thai bank books- stopped using Thai Banks  in 1997  after I lost $22,000 repatriating money to the Us when the Thai Baht was devalued.  When I returned to Thailand- I found that I didn't need Thai banks for anything. Why would I need to transfer money- each month when I can get  money from an aTM machine. This is the 21st Century.

 

If I have to go back and use them- I will but I am not advocating  that as the only way to prove income as it creates problems for those who live in Thailand and have legal, local income.  Shall we simply say because they are 10% of the population we should just forget about them.

 

Since Thai Imm has accepted  income proof before such as foreign bank letters and  accounts- it is obvious they know how to read them.   This is not brain surgery- it's simple and easy. 

[Chou Anou]

19 hours ago, onera1961 said:

I have done 100s of Transferwise transfer to Bangkok Bank and all show FTT. Not sure about other banks. 

Yes, this is what shows on my gf's Bangkok Bank account every month when I send her money via Transferwise. Surprised me at first because it was my understanding (as another poster has mentioned) that the way Transferwise does it, it should look like a domestic transfer. Whatever they're doing, it's great, because no fee is taken by Bangkok Bank--and they used to take one in the past when I would send her Int'l (SWIFT) transfers.

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

But would Thai Immigration accept this "Blank" affidavit or would they want to see the standard one that includes the statement about income coming from the US?

I don't know if they would accept it  in the future- but they have in the past.  The statement at the bottom of the letter should not be on there because there is no mention of foreign sourced income in the Police Order as being  required. 

 

I have used the general affadavit to  provide income information for the  US IRS; for  a support document and my wife has used it for a US Pension declaration.  It was accepted by the IRS; a US Court and a US Pension fund.  It's interesting that all of these Us institutions will accept it and Thai Imm would not.

[mogandave]

I don’t bring much money into Thailand beyond the B800K.

I pay most everything with either a US credit card, and utilities and whatnot by direct transfer from k-bank.

Top-up the k-bank now and then with TW.

[mogandave]

I don't know if they would accept it  in the future- but they have in the past.  The statement at the bottom of the letter should not be on there because there is no mention of foreign sourced income in the Police Order as being  required. 
 
I have used the general affadavit to  provide income information for the  US IRS; for  a support document and my wife has used it for a US Pension declaration.  It was accepted by the IRS; a US Court and a US Pension fund.  It's interesting that all of these Us institutions will accept it and Thai Imm would not.

Why is that interesting? Do US courts accept documents from Thai banks and whatnot?

[Mike Teavee]

12 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

My apology for not quoting properly-

 

Mike- I bring at least 65K into Thailand each month and have already done it  for November and it is only the 5th.  I have  several US accounts- when I need money I go to a Thai ATM- and get what I need-  Why should I or anyone have to transfer the money into Thailand  via  Swift- Tranferwise or other when there is no  logical reason to do it nor does the Police Order say I have to do it.  I  place xx amount in my wife's  bank account and keep some pocket money.

 

I could take the 65K  and deposit it into a Thai Bank and then transfer it into  my wife's account. I could have 65K transferred to  her account or my account from the US. Why?  Thai Imm seems to be interested in proving one actually has a guaranteed income.   I can show them my income letter from US Social Security and another Government Pension; I can show them my US Bank Account  which shows the exact amount of direct deposit which will match my 2 letters of proof.  The bank account shows where the money is debited to include the exact location in Thailand where the money  is debited. I can show the Debit cards and i can even show the  ATM slips.  Some people say- that  takes too much time  for Thai Imm to look at. It doesn't  Four pages in all which proves immediately what needs to be proved ( They asked for this proof before- took 1-2 minutes for the Thai Imm to understand and accept it)

In addition, the Police Order states evidence of income- it does not say the income has to be in Thailand   I have a whole  desk filled with Thai bank books- stopped using Thai Banks  in 1997  after I lost $22,000 repatriating money to the Us when the Thai Baht was devalued.  When I returned to Thailand- I found that I didn't need Thai banks for anything. Why would I need to transfer money- each month when I can get  money from an aTM machine. This is the 21st Century.

 

If I have to go back and use them- I will but I am not advocating  that as the only way to prove income as it creates problems for those who live in Thailand and have legal, local income.  Shall we simply say because they are 10% of the population we should just forget about them.

 

Since Thai Imm has accepted  income proof before such as foreign bank letters and  accounts- it is obvious they know how to read them.   This is not brain surgery- it's simple and easy. 

I semi understand your reluctance to bring in the 800/400K but I'm sure no country will write it's immigration rules to cater for people who think it's currency is going to nose dive (again) or believe its Banking system is corrupt (which seems to be others argument for not doing it).

 

The "Why should you" transfer the income across each month is simply because it would make it easier for Thai Immigration to confirm, by your own view currently this would be 4 pages of foreign documents (even restricting this to English only there are a myriad of different formats/figures that they could be presented with when they could be looking at 1 sheet in a standard format in Thai.

 

Again, anybody legitimately earning an income in Thailand should be filing Thai Tax returns & so should be able to prove this (I think a large % of Married guys would fall into this camp), people renting out condos without declaring the income will be impacted by this whether they're legal or not depends on their circumstances but again, you can't expect any country to write its immigration rules to cater for people earning money in the country and not declaring it.

     

  

[Longcut]

31 minutes ago, Chou Anou said:

Yes, this is what shows on my gf's Bangkok Bank account every month when I send her money via Transferwise. Surprised me at first because it was my understanding (as another poster has mentioned) that the way Transferwise does it, it should look like a domestic transfer. Whatever they're doing, it's great, because no fee is taken by Bangkok Bank--and they used to take one in the past when I would send her Int'l (SWIFT) transfers.

It shows a different code on Krungthai bank.

[Lovethailandelite]

8 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I don't know if they would accept it  in the future- but they have in the past.  The statement at the bottom of the letter should not be on there because there is no mention of foreign sourced income in the Police Order as being  required. 

 

I have used the general affadavit to  provide income information for the  US IRS; for  a support document and my wife has used it for a US Pension declaration.  It was accepted by the IRS; a US Court and a US Pension fund.  It's interesting that all of these Us institutions will accept it and Thai Imm would not.

Good morning.
Let me explain one more time, as I explained that other Embassy's would follow suit when the BE broke the news regarding Letters of income and indeed, other Embassy's 'Will' be doing the same. No Embassy we are aware of, can or want's to be involved with categorically verifying income. It is simply not going to be happening.
There will be no acceptance of 'Anything' other than 'regular monthly foreign transfers' into a Thai bank account of 40/65k or the banked funds of 800/400k baht. No combination, no ATM receipts, no letters from foreign institutions, taking money from your wife's account etc It will need to be a straight foreign transfer that can be seen in your account. Nobody will be bothered where the funds generate from so long as the source is 'Foreign based' and can be seen entering Thailand.
You need to start making preparations to do it as I have explained above and not waste time thinking anything is going to change. It isn't. All of the scenarios people are coming up with are simply not going to excepted. Of course, it's your choice if you except what I am saying or not.
Enjoy your day.

[cleopatra2]

38 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I don't know if they would accept it  in the future- but they have in the past.  The statement at the bottom of the letter should not be on there because there is no mention of foreign sourced income in the Police Order as being  required. 

 

I have used the general affadavit to  provide income information for the  US IRS; for  a support document and my wife has used it for a US Pension declaration.  It was accepted by the IRS; a US Court and a US Pension fund.  It's interesting that all of these Us institutions will accept it and Thai Imm would not.

Apologies for butting in , I dont wish to get into a what is right or wrong debate.

From reading the various notices on the embassies , it is my understanding that TI do not want an affidavit , but a letter from the embassies that the income as been verified.

The embassies have used the affidavit as a vehicle to enable them to issue the letter without verification. If TI is insisting on verification then the affidavit is the wrong vehicle