Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[Joe Mcseismic]

1 hour ago, Ebumbu said:

 

Except in Phuket, and apparently in Chiang Mai. They do care about the source of income for type-O holders extending their visa for retirement. Even a bankbook showing monthly deposits into a Thai account is not adequate proof here in Phuket, because it only proves the past, not the future. I do not have a government income, which seems to be the only proof possible. Have asked for assistance from Thai lawyer. They are reviewing my documents and inquiring next week. Will see what happens. 

When using the 800k seasoned for three months to get a year's extension for reason of retirement, Phuket immigration don't care if it is a savings account, or, a fixed deposit account. They don't care where the money is from.

[elviajero]

8 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

So what's your concern with statements and codes.

 

There is no requirement that the income came from a foreign source, other than when you do a conversion to a Non Imm.

There is, currently, no requirement to prove income came from a foreign source, but that doesn't change the fact that it should be. IF immigration do start to allow proof of income via a transfers to a Thai bank they will almost certainly expect, maybe insist, it's from a foreign source.

 

One of the reasons they use Embassies to confirm income is because it's foreign income.

[Pattaya46]

21 minutes ago, elviajero said:

There is, currently, no requirement to prove income came from a foreign source, but that doesn't change the fact that it should be. //

What!! And why that?

Who are you to decide that hundreds of people who live from investment in Thailand now "should" not have the right to stay here? Seriously... 

 

21 minutes ago, elviajero said:

One of the reasons they use Embassies to confirm income is because it's foreign income.

Wrong. Embassy Letter should indicate your income, but no rule to restrict it to income of your home country only.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Pattaya46

[JLCrab]

21 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Wrong. Embassy Letter should indicate your income, but no rule to restrict it to income of your home country only.

This is the wording from the current (and last) version of the income affidavit letter on the US Embassy Bangkok website:

I also affirm that I receive a monthly income of $_______ from sources in the United States.

[Ebumbu]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

From what I have read on this forum- they are asking for  proof of a guaranteed income flow which does not end.  Unfortunately, Phuket  is restricting it to  A Government  Pension and possibly Military which is paid by the Government. CM- is asking  in some cases for proof of income -the source.

 

Phuket is in a World unto itself as a Government pension is not the only pension type that is guaranteed and since the extension is for 1 year- it needs to be only 'guaranteed' for the year.  People retire from Corporations after a lifetime of work with 'guaranteed' Pensions.  Do keep us informed.

 

In addition- income sources could be an investment in a  hotel which provides x amount per month- or a  Condo that is rented out. Past  income streams are used all the time to prove income- Banks  and finance companies use it all the time to make decisions.  Time for Phuket to join the 21st Century.

 

It's caused me a lot of distress. I may need to leave Phuket by end of year. The worst part is, Phuket immigrations does not issue any official news. By the time most expats find out, it may be too late. That's why I religiously follow this forum. It's helped me out many times. 

I'll update here when I am certain of my path forward. I don't understand why Phuket follows their own rules. Vietnam is sounding nice. 



 

[Thaidream]

There are many people both retired and married who  have investments-be it stocks and bonds- purchase of  property like hotels and condos and legally obtain their income.  There is and has not been any restrictions on source of income except if you enter with an exempt/tourist visa and change to a Non O.

 

It would make no sense to have to source everything from overseas as it would  cause  legitimate retirees and married people to have to uproot and move or  send their income back to their home country and have it then rerouted to Thailand. In addition- such nonsense will destroy the investment market in Thailand- eliminate the small investor and  get bad publicity for Thailand as any type of location for foreigners.

 

No one has ever really needed an Embassy letter and at one time it was not even a requirement- as the Embassies have said- it became an unwritten courtesy which gave Thai Imm an easy way to process the paperwork.  Some Embassies  actually looked at the 'proof'- a long time ago I showed my proof to the US Embassy and they looked at it-  then it became redundant because one swore under Oath with penalty of felony that what you states was true.

 

No one I know was ever 'caught' lying but had Thai Imm checked more often and then referred  suspects to the FBI or Australian Federal Police  or other investigative agencies-  potential 'liars' could be prosecuted. In addition- lying to a Thai Police Officer is a crime. Why didn't they pursue criminal charges if they found a lie?

 

Luckily, the current letters for US/UK and Aussies will still be accepted and good for 6 months- with added proof most likely asked for at some locations (Already an issue in Phuket).

 

How it will all end is unknown but I have to believe that  the system Thai Imm settles on will be  fairly encompassing and not restrictive as some posters seem to want.

 

 

.

 

 

[Tanoshi]

39 minutes ago, elviajero said:

There is, currently, no requirement to prove income came from a foreign source, but that doesn't change the fact that it should be. IF immigration do start to allow proof of income via a transfers to a Thai bank they will almost certainly expect, maybe insist, it's from a foreign source.

 

One of the reasons they use Embassies to confirm income is because it's foreign income.

And of those working and receiving numeration from a Thai employer?

 

If Immigration do allow a different method of proof of income, it will be from a source they can 'verify', which in the case of foreign income, deposited in a Thai bank, same as the deposited funds method.

[Ebumbu]

54 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

When using the 800k seasoned for three months to get a year's extension for reason of retirement, Phuket immigration don't care if it is a savings account, or, a fixed deposit account. They don't care where the money is from.

 

Yes, but they've effectively killed two out of the three methods for proving income for people without a pension: 
1) 800k in bank. √
2) 65k income per month.  X 
3) Combination of bank balance and income (part of 1, supplemented by 2).  X
 

[JLCrab]

10 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

How it will all end is unknown but I have to believe that  the system Thai Imm settles on will be  fairly encompassing and not restrictive as some posters seem to want.

I also have no hard prediction how things will end up but it is just my sense that the all-encompassing ways to prove source of income that some on here are suggesting would be a bureaucratic nightmare for those  IMM officers sitting on the front lines in the IMM offices Kingdom-wide.

[Thaidream]

23 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

also have no hard prediction how things will end up but it is just my sense that the all-encompassing ways to prove source of income that some on here are suggesting would be a bureaucratic nightmare for those  IMM officers sitting on the front lines in the IMM offices Kingdom-wide.

If we hold to the 3 Nationalities- there should be no problem.  A 1-2 hour seminar- with a Nationality of each group presenting can solve this.  How does Thai Imm currently solve  Chinese; Japanese; Iranian , Russian etc- these  nationalities use alphabets  much different than English.  Interpreters or translations- where there is a will-there is a way.

[Thaidream]

40 minutes ago, Ebumbu said:

es, but they've effectively killed two out of the three methods for proving income for people without a pension: 
1) 800k in bank. √
2) 65k income per month.  X 
3) Combination of bank balance and income (part of 1, supplemented by 2).  X

Hopefully your lawyer can make them come to their senses. Stay Positive!!

[Ebumbu]

1 minute ago, Thaidream said:

If we hold to the 3 Nationalities- there should be no problem.  A 1-2 hour seminar- with a Nationality of each group presenting can solve this.  How does Thai Imm currently solve  Chinese; Japanese; Iranian , Russian etc- these  nationalities use alphabets  much different than English.  Interpreters or translations- where there is a will-there is a way.

 

Isn't it clear by now that most or all embassies are going to follow suit? Easy-money bet. 

[JLCrab]

When someone comes in for an extension of stay up until now, the officer either looks at the 800K in the passbook with the bank letter or Income affidavit from the Embassy.  That's it. Cut and dry boilerplate stuff.

 

Not with (with apologies to Paul Simon) 50 Ways to Prove Your Income.

Edited November 4, 2018 by JLCrab

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, Ebumbu said:

Isn't it clear by now that most or all embassies are going to follow suit? Easy-money bet.

Then that would mean that  the Thai Imm has asked for something they cannot or will not provide and all the Embassies have come together as a group and acting in concert.  I would be very surprised if this happens because some embassies actually  do verify the income. What's interesting is that the  British Embassy actually asked for documentation but did not have their citizens swear an Oath-  Thai Imm  will eventually wake up and come to the conclusion no one- can verify anything 100%

Thai imm will  be put on the spot i at some point- if enough people are affected and a solution not found- cases will go to Social Media and Thailand will be presented in a negative light.

 

[elviajero]

20 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

And of those working and receiving numeration from a Thai employer?

 

If Immigration do allow a different method of proof of income, it will be from a source they can 'verify', which in the case of foreign income, deposited in a Thai bank, same as the deposited funds method.

I don’t think that’s relevant as it only applies to people actually working in Thailand.

 

Most people that enter with a non ‘O’ or ‘O-A’, that apply for an extension based on retirement, have proven to the embassy/consulates that they have the required foreign income or cash in a foreign bank. So, presumably, that’s why immigration don’t insist on further clarification when applying for an extension. And, presumably, that’s why they only insist on proof of foreign income/cash when applying for a non ‘O’ in Thailand.

 

I am sure that immigration would only accept foreign deposits as proof of income; otherwise the system opens itself up to even more fraud as people could just churn the same 40K/65K every month.

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, elviajero said:

I am sure that immigration would only accept foreign deposits as proof of income; otherwise the system opens itself up to even more fraud as people could just churn the same 40K/65K every month.

The point is that many people live in Thailand perfectly legal- and get their income from various  small business operations they have opened- I know some people who have  small resorts; other have  markets; some have  bars/restaurants- and have used the Embassy Letter to  report their income.  Shall they now be forced to sell out-move out because their income does not come from abroad.  Makes no sense.  They employ Thai citizens; pay Thai taxes and do not need work permits because they are not working. They have not lied about their income- now- should they get 65K each month- send it to family member in London and then have it sent back to a Thai Bank. Sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

What!! And why that?

Who are you to decide that hundreds of people who live from investment in Thailand now "should" not have the right to stay here? Seriously... 

Wouldn’t that investment income have been created from an initial investment of funds brought in from abroad.

 

You are describing a tiny percentage of expats. We are given temporary permission to stay for 1 year and as foreigners it is expected that our income/cash in the bank comes from our home country. The system is designed around that model, not the few expats you describe.

 

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

Wrong. Embassy Letter should indicate your income, but no rule to restrict it to income of your home country only.

Correct. At the moment it isn’t necessary to confirm it’s foreign income because it’s implied.

 

No doubt you also beleive, like some so called experts, that gross income is acceptable.

[garyk]

On 11/3/2018 at 12:26 PM, HHTel said:

Your 'financial windfall' is based upon the embassies not issuing income letters.  In fact these letters are quite small in proportion.  The British Embassy issued only 3,000 per year.  I don't know the figures for the US and Australian.  Of those, some will not have the ability to deposit a lump sum or show an income.  If they can't meet those requirements then they may leave the country,  Those that deposit 800,000 in the bank are effectively putting their annual income into the bank in one go where previously they would have transferred money when necessary.

The end result is that those that leave is a net outflow of cash, those that prove income or deposit 800,000 in the bank doesn't affect the inflow/outflow of cash at all.  Annually that remains the same.

This 'new procedure' if it's verified by Thai immigration will cause a loss of cash into the country.

 

You should also take into account with your figures that a majority of expats here are working.  Japan, India and China for example, have no retirees in Thailand.  The same goes for Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam etc etc.

 

There is no windfall.

Wow, unbelievable.

 

What is going on is they are guaranteeing 800K in the bank, and to be seeded for 3 months? Even if it only means say 20K extra people / yr.  

If the letter was used then your money  was not seeded,  most  were living on ATM withdrawals and the Thai banks saw nothing but an ATM fee? Even if some people deposited it in a bank it was used very fast,  and not Seeded! Seeded is the key word here.

Now with seeding, the banks will see all the money going into an account and be left there for a minimum of 3 months.

No matter how you slice it or dice it, it is huge. 

So they target the U.S., UK, and the Australians that have a SS pension. 

 

It is a simple transfer of wealth. The question is, is it worth it for you to transfer you're wealth to them, and let them use as they see fit for 3 months a year?  I wish I had a deal going where you gave me 25K dollars every year for 3 months free. Haha. This has got to be one of the sweetest deals I have ever seen come down the pike in years. 

 

It is a huge windfall

 

Regards

[JimGant]

Quote

I also have no hard prediction how things will end up but it is just my sense that the all-encompassing ways to prove source of income that some on here are suggesting would be a bureaucratic nightmare for those  IMM officers sitting on the front lines in the IMM offices Kingdom-wide.

Indeed. Yes, most Government pensions are petty stable about their existence going forward. But that says nothing about whether or not that money is actually being utilized in Thailand. Only seeing that money in Thailand is proof positive that you can support yourself here -- and folks, that's strictly historical data (and forget Immigration reviewing a year's worth of ATM slips, which at a minimum would be 36).

 

Why is this so hard to understand? It's all going to be about historical monies brought into Thailand, whether it's the historical 800k fermenting for 3 months, or it's 780k brought into Thailand 12 months ago in one chunk, or in pieces equaling 780k (65k x 12) over  a period of 12 months. And it certainly doesn't need to be "income" per se -- it can be cash flow chunks from the sale of your home, whatever. Cash flow, not income, is what the Thai authorities are interested in.

 

Phasing this in will require that, at first, a requirement to show 12 months of historical cash flow input to Thailand be waived. Maybe a token one month of 65k --. But at the next year's extension renewal, yep, show that passbook with either the 800k 3 month deposit; or 780k up front deposit 12 months ago; or bits and pieces of that 780k deposited over a 12 month period; or a combination of 3 month deposit and monthly income. Easy for Immigration to peruse a single (or a couple) passbooks to ascertain of of this.

 

What? After one year, you can't show that 65k/mo is actually on shore, available for your support? I guess we'll have to wait to see how that scenario pans out. One scenario, I'm afraid, may be you sitting on a beat up airliner between two Nigerians.

 

 

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, elviajero said:

You are describing a tiny percentage of expats. We are given temporary permission to stay for 1 year and as foreigners it is expected that our income/cash in the bank comes from our home country. The system is designed around that model, not the few expats you describe.

Sorry- do not agree- the system is designed to be inclusive- in no way  does the police order indicate the income has to come from abroad except that change of entry order from exempt/tourist to  O. I have personally brought in cash; travelers checks;  transfer; and even gold bullion-and also written and cashed checks placed in my account. I have even borrowed funds from a friend in Thailand to  use as added income for  a business project and  used it as proof for Thai Imm.  They never  cared- I could walk into immigration right now with 800K cash and  they would accept it  after I deposited it into a Thai account.

If they make it restrictive in the future- few people will come to Thailand to invest; open small business or retire. If that is their desire- then the country will have to live with the results and the bad publicity.

[marcusarelus]

12 minutes ago, garyk said:

Wow, unbelievable.

 

What is going on is they are guaranteeing 800K in the bank, and to be seeded for 3 months? Even if it only means say 20K extra people / yr.  

If the letter was used then your money  was not seeded,  most  were living on ATM withdrawals and the Thai banks saw nothing but an ATM fee? Even if some people deposited it in a bank it was used very fast,  and not Seeded! Seeded is the key word here.

Now with seeding, the banks will see all the money going into an account and be left there for a minimum of 3 months.

No matter how you slice it or dice it, it is huge. 

So they target the U.S., UK, and the Australians that have a SS pension. 

 

It is a simple transfer of wealth. The question is, is it worth it for you to transfer you're wealth to them, and let them use as they see fit for 3 months a year?  I wish I had a deal going where you gave me 25K dollars every year for 3 months free. Haha. This has got to be one of the sweetest deals I have ever seen come down the pike in years. 

 

It is a huge windfall

 

Regards

http://www2.bot.or.th/statistics/BOTWEBSTAT.aspx?reportID=157&language=ENG

 

What percent is it? 

banks.svg

Edited November 4, 2018 by marcusarelus

[Pattaya46]

2 minutes ago, elviajero said:

You are describing a tiny percentage of expats. We are given temporary permission to stay for 1 year and as foreigners it is expected that our income/cash in the bank comes from our home country. 

Sorry, but I doubt this number being so tiny.

Just on Pattaya there are hundreds of expats who have invested in condos for rents, and many of them didn't have to bring money in Thailand for years.

Also in my condo only there are at least 5 guys who could easily live from dividends they get from the Thai Market. How many in Pattaya or Thailand? No idea, but hundreds at least.

Most of them are here on Retirement or Marriage Extension, as most readers of this thread.

Your "should be" or "is excepted" are not matching how TI see that.

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

What? After one year, you can't show that 65k/mo is actually on shore, available for your support? I guess we'll have to wait to see how that scenario pans out. One scenario, I'm afraid, may be you sitting on a beat up airliner between two Nigerians.

I can go to a Thai aTM right now and draw out $4000  and either keep it in my pocket or put it into a Thai Bank.  It is already 4 Nov  and I have already pulled out  more than 65K and I can do it every month forever- what does it prove- maybe I won the lottery; maybe I had a big hit in Las Vegas or Macau.  Maybe someone bought my house.   They are at some point going to ask  me or you to prove you have a guaranteed income and that is where the problem lies for some people. Even if I put 800K in a Thai Bank today- how do they know i have guaranteed income.  We can banter back and forth all day- but the Thai imm is going to have to come up with a system that works for everyone and it's not that easy.

[marcusarelus]

9 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Sorry, but I doubt this number being so tiny.

Just on Pattaya there are hundreds of expats who have invested in condos for rents, and many of them didn't have to bring money in Thailand for years.

Also in my condo only there are at least 5 guys who could easily live from dividends they get from the Thai Market. How many in Pattaya or Thailand? No idea, but hundreds at least.

Most of them are here on Retirement or Marriage Extension, as most readers of this thread.

Your "should be" or "is excepted" are not matching how TI see that.

I'm not really good with numbers that large but look at the above and I think it would be less than a hundredth of one percent. 13,438,016  unit millions of baht. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by marcusarelus

[Pattaya46]

3 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I'm not really good with numbers that large but look at the above and I think it would be less than a hundredth of one percent. 

Unsure what numbers you are talking about, but from this forum it looks like the total number of farangs using Income Letter could be in the 10-20'000 range. So people living from investment could be more than 5% of them; enough to not ignore them... IMHO.

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Unsure what numbers you are talking about, but from this forum it looks like the total number of farangs using Income Letter could be in the 10-20'000 range. So people living from investment could be more than 5% of them; enough to not ignore them... IMHO.

Why should they be ignored- they come- spend their money- some open a business and employ Thai workers- pay Thai taxes and now the Government is going to say- sorry- no extension because your income is  on shore and we want all income  foreign sourced.  These people can prove their income easily-  from tax returns- from bank accounts- from business ledgers- from rental agreements etc etc. Sorry Thai Imm- time to do your job as you do not have the Embassy letter any more.

[elviajero]

44 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The point is that many people live in Thailand perfectly legal- and get their income from various  small business operations they have opened- I know some people who have  small resorts; other have  markets; some have  bars/restaurants- and have used the Embassy Letter to  report their income.  Shall they now be forced to sell out-move out because their income does not come from abroad.  Makes no sense.  They employ Thai citizens; pay Thai taxes and do not need work permits because they are not working. They have not lied about their income- now- should they get 65K each month- send it to family member in London and then have it sent back to a Thai Bank. Sounds ridiculous because it is ridiculous.

No. The point is that the visa/permit system is not designed around the small number of expats you describe. 

 

We will have to wait and see if immigration change the system to cater for these few, but I don’t think they will.

[JimGant]

Quote

It is already 4 Nov  and I have already pulled out  more than 65K and I can do it every month forever- what does it prove-

Well, I guess if Immigration looked at ATM slips, it proves you have the cash flow into Thailand that meets their stipulated 65k requirement for supporting yourself. Cash is king, eh.

 

Quote

They are at some point going to ask  me or you to prove you have a guaranteed income

Why? If all that guaranteed income ended up in the pockets of my 3 former wives, and 25 kids, such proof is worthless to Thailand as far as your ability to support yourself. Cash and carry. Pure simplicity, and quite manageable from the Thai perspective.

[garyk]

55 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

http://www2.bot.or.th/statistics/BOTWEBSTAT.aspx?reportID=157&language=ENG

 

What percent is it? 

banks.svg

Tell you what, if you will put 25 thousand dollars in my account, and leave it there for 3 months I will figure out what ever % you want figured... haha

 

Have a great evening, no offence.

Edited November 4, 2018 by garyk

[elviajero]

42 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Sorry, but I doubt this number being so tiny.

Just on Pattaya there are hundreds of expats who have invested in condos for rents, and many of them didn't have to bring money in Thailand for years.

Also in my condo only there are at least 5 guys who could easily live from dividends they get from the Thai Market. How many in Pattaya or Thailand? No idea, but hundreds at least.

Most of them are here on Retirement or Marriage Extension, as most readers of this thread.

Your "should be" or "is excepted" are not matching how TI see that.

The people you describe are a tiny percentage of expats. Less than 1% IMO.

 

If immigration insist on confirmation of funds from abroad before issuing a visa/extension it proves that is where they expect the funds you’re living on should come from generally.

 

You don’t see it how immigration see it, but how you see it and want it to be.