Origin Of Na In Na Ayutthaya

[Richard W]

This thread started at Thai Citizenship, FOR FOREIGN MALES (on p3) and continued to the last posting in this thread at that topic (on p6)before being moved to this new topic.

I've misplaced my Sir Monier-Monier Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary -- not so easy to do considering what a large honker it is -- or else I'd let you know what it says as it would probably have something on it.

It's available on-line:

Searchable version - part of Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon

Downloadable version

Printable version

Unfortunately, none of the meanings of n.a, of ña (pronunciation not good), of jña (pronunciation not good) or indeed of na fit the sense. But then Sanskrit was always an unlikely source - if there is an Indic source I would expect it to be Pali.

[sabaijai]

Thanks for that link. The online entries aren't nearly as detailed as my MMW print version, but according to the online version:

Na (where capital 'N' refers to cerebral/nasal /n/):

knowledge L. ; certainty , ascertainment .

So we have a linguisitic puzzle here it seems.

However, I can refer you to ?????? 'England', ???????? 'France' and ??????? 'Japan'.

Yes my observation remains that you don't *ordinarily* see P/S-derived Thai letters used for vocab not originating in P/S. What you do see is the occasional use of such letters for words associated with 'foreign' meanings, as in all 3 of your examples. So at the very least, we might surmise that /Na/ was at one time somehow considered 'imported' or 'foreign', either in concept or in actual derivation.

[Richard W]

Thanks for that link. The online entries aren't nearly as detailed as my MMW print version.

The 'printable version'above is the printed version scanned in as .PNG files. You can read the details there if you have a fast enough link. It's tedious to read them over a normal telephone line.

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

Just an idea which just came to my head: Could it be a shortened version of Sanskrit "nayaka", chieftain?? (in present-day Thai it's "nayok").

It could make sense as "Na Ayutthaya", Na Thalang", "Na Songhkla" etc. all denote (or denoted) a family of high standing in their respective town.

[chanchao]

That's my understanding as well. I think in the old days, the 'governor' (or equivalent thereof) could call himself "Na <province name>" I think 'na' refers just to being 'from' somewhere. Similar to European nobility who often have names indicating the area under their control. 'von' in Germany, 'de' in French, 'of' in English and so on.

Note that there's nothing nasal or different in the pronounciation. The word is written with JUST the single N-Nehn consonant, there's no vowel. The sound is completely the same as N-Noo + Sara a (short a) as in 'Na'.

Dictionary says:

prep. at,by,on,upon,in,near

Cheers,

Chanchao

[Richard W]

The idea of "na" being a shortening of "nayok" < "naayaka" (or more likely of the base form, "naai" < "naaya") is appealing. It's interesting though that foreign and modern titles based on placenames are translated into Thai using "haeng".

I notice that the Royal Institute Dictionary does not give an origin for the honorific "phra". I wonder where that comes from. My first guess is that it's a ground down form of "phraam", in origin 'brahman', or a related form. If so, it supports the idea of "na" being a reduced form of "naai", just as English "sir" and "sire" are reduced forms of French "seigneur".

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

The word "phra" has given me much headache, too.

My conclusion is that it could be from Skt. "vara", excellent, fine, best. I'm not sure, but I think in Cambodean "phra" is "vra" (pls. correct me someone if I'm wrong).

So we'd get a nice link: vara - vra - phra. Makes perfect sense to me.

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

Ok, folks, whilst we're at it:

Where do you reckon the word "wat" comes from?

Initially, I had though it might be from Skt. "vadha", slaying or slaughter, the implication being that the monk is supposed to "slay" his ego.

Further research led me to believe that it's from Pali "vaddhu", denoting an enclosed space.

Any other suggestions?

[Richard W]

Ok, folks, whilst we're at it:

Where do you reckon the word "wat" comes from?

Initially, I had though it might be from Skt. "vadha", slaying or slaughter, the implication being that the monk is supposed to "slay" his ego.

Further research led me to believe that it's from Pali "vaddhu", denoting an enclosed space.

Any other suggestions?

Bartleby derives "wat" from Sanskrit va:t.a 'enclosure' (which would normally give Thai *วาฎ or *พาฎ).

[Snark]

Excuse if I am way off base here.

My source informs me Na with the ^ over the a was often used as a superlative prefix. A slight variation of the tone or change of context turns it into an honorific.

My apologies if I have missed the mark completely. My source, while he speaks both Pali and Sanskrit, does not relate at all well to planet earth. (Nor do I)

[taxexile]

That's my understanding as well. I think in the old days, the 'governor' (or equivalent thereof) could call himself "Na <province name>" I think 'na' refers just to being 'from' somewhere. Similar to European nobility who often have names indicating the area under their control. 'von' in Germany, 'de' in French, 'of' in English and so on.

Note that there's nothing nasal or different in the pronounciation. The word is written with JUST the single N-Nehn consonant, there's no vowel. The sound is completely the same as N-Noo + Sara a (short a) as in 'Na'.

Dictionary says:

prep. at,by,on,upon,in,near

Cheers,

Chanchao

seeing as she has "na" as part of her surname, i asked my thai teacher about it this morning and she said basically the same as chanchao above. i.e. of a place,from that place.

[Richard W]

seeing as she has "na" as part of her surname, i asked my thai teacher about it this morning and she said basically the same as chanchao above. i.e. of a place,from that place.

But where does the word come from? It's either a shortening of something, or a borrowing. It doesn't have the right phonetic form to derive regularly from an ancient Tai word (I suspect it can't even derive from Proto-South-West Tai).

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

seeing as she has "na" as part of her surname, i asked my thai teacher about it this morning  and she said basically the same as chanchao above. i.e. of a place,from that place.

Yes and no.

I know for example that the Na Thalangs of Thalang, Phuket, are the descendants of the "two heroines" of Phuket, Mook and Chan, who rallyed the populace against the invading Burmese.

After the successful struggle against the Burmese they were awarded the surname Na Thalang.

So, "na" definitely means "from" or "of", but at the same time it's a honorific.

In general, be careful when Thai explain aspects of their own culture or language. Being Thais doesn't mean they're experts on all things Thai. How many times have I heard Thais explain that the word Nana (as in Soi Nana) means "in front of the fields" (na na). This is patently wrong, since Nana was the surname of an Indian Muslim immigrant (known generally as Lek Nana), whose family owned a large plot of land in what is today Soi Nana. Talaat Nana, the market area between Banglamphoo and Thewet, is also named after his family.

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

seeing as she has "na" as part of her surname, i asked my thai teacher about it this morning  and she said basically the same as chanchao above. i.e. of a place,from that place.

But where does the word come from? It's either a shortening of something, or a borrowing. It doesn't have the right phonetic form to derive regularly from an ancient Tai word (I suspect it can't even derive from Proto-South-West Tai).

If it's a shortening, I stick with my theory of "nayaka" being the most likely source.

As second best possibilty (but much lower down the list) I'd suggest Skt. "nagarika" = citizen, townsman, with the implication of urbaneness, cunning and knowledge.

Even much further down the line one could think of Skt. "naga", the revered snake-deity (regarded as a protector, see for example the naga figures at temple entrances), or "nabhi", meaning navel, centre, focus, hub (of a wheel).

Well, just theorising ...

[sabaijai]

Any Thai dictionary will tell you that ? means 'at', belonging to, in,' etc. The original question (in the original thread) was what's the etymology, as at least one source has suggested that it comes from the Portuguese 'da' (same as von, de, etc). Other Portuguese words have found their way into Thai, the most prominent perhaps being sala / ???? so it seems possible, and moving from a voiced dental to a retroflex nasal isn't a completely preposterous notion.

However I don't think it's likely related to either nayok/nayaka or nakhon/nagara as it uses a different initial consonant altogether. Also, since the title ? is given to the last in a line of royalty, it hardly refers to someone who's a political leader.

Re 'phra' most Thai Buddhist sources agree that it comes from vara meaning 'excellent, noteworthy'. In many PS-derived words in Thai, the /v/ changes to a /ph/ (as in Phitsanulok/Visnuloka; phin/vina; phian/viriya).

By the way, are the Thai letters I type coming out when you read this posting in the forum? When I type them in the original posting/preview box, they come through fine. But after I post my message and read it in the forum, the Thai letters are replaced with question marks. Yet I can still read Thai letters or words that other members post (my browser is set to read Thai). It's driving me nuts ...

[Richard W]

By the way, are the Thai letters I type coming out when you read this posting in the forum? When I type them in the original posting/preview box, they come through fine. But after I post my message and read it in the forum, the Thai letters are replaced with question marks. Yet I can still read Thai letters or words that other members post (my browser is set to read Thai). It's driving me nuts ...

No, alas, I've never seen them as anything but question marks from your postings. Do they survive 'preview post'?

It sounds like a forum support question. The forums at thai-language.com used a UBB with TIS-620 default. If I typed ISO Latin-1 characters with high bit set, they would appear as Latin-1 in the preview, but in the post would appear as Thai characters. Such a solution it could cause a problem here, as on some forums 'fiancée' is rather a common word. I suspect many would not care to have to type é! Purely as a one-off experiment, does it work for you if you use the decimal encodings ไหม Note that 0E00 (hex) is 3584 (decimal).

I use IE6 with Windows XP with Thai selected as the input language (supplemented by some cut and paste) or IE6 with Windows 2000 and relying on cut and paste to assemble the words. I don't fiddle with the browser encoding, which stays as Western European.

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

Other Portuguese words have found their way into Thai, the most prominent perhaps being sala ...

I'm suprised that "sala" is supposed to be from Portuguese. Wouldn't Skt. "shala" be a much more likely source? What were "salas" called before the advent of the Portuguese?

Of course, via the PIE (Proto-Indo-European) connection we get words in European languages which are similar to their Skt. counterparts. See for example German "Saal" (hall).

What I find particlularly interesting is how via the above connection we find many word in say English and German, which are similar to Thai words - which may appear quite incredible to non-linguists. See words like "fun" (tooth; "Zahn" in German; Skt. danta) or "manut" (man, human being; German "Mensch"; Skt. manushya). Sorry, I'm straying a bit here.

[taxexile]

Sorry, I'm straying a bit here.

not at all, this is fascinating stuff. please go on.

barn and บ้าน?

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

Sorry, I'm straying a bit here.

not at all, this is fascinating stuff. please go on.

barn and บ้าน?

I don't think there's any connection here. I can't see any Skt. word which is similar to Thai "baan" and I reckon the source is Tai. So the question would be where Engl. "barn" is from. English, as we know, has a vocabulary made up from many different sources, from Latin, to Dutch or French, just to name a few. English words with Skt. background would in all likelihood have a similar equivalent in German; "barn" is "Scheune" or "Stall" in German, so there's obviously no connection here.

Just 2 examples for the Skt. - German - Engl. connection: The Skt. root "lug" becomes "lugen" In German (meaning to furtively watch) and "look in Engl. Skt. "go" becomes German "Kuh" and Engl. "cow". Fascinating stuff indeed.

The closest Skt. word to "baan" I can come up with is "vasa", house, residence place, but that usually changes into "vaat" in Thai. See for example Narathiwat, which is "Thai-ised" Skt. for nara-dhi-vasa, i.e. "dwelling place of intelligent/wise men". Well, don't get me off on Skt.-based Thai place names, another very interesting subject.

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

Any Thai dictionary will tell you that ? means 'at', belonging to, in,' etc. The original question (in the original thread) was what's the etymology, as at least one source has suggested that it comes from the Portuguese 'da' (same as von, de, etc).

Interestingly, "da" is also "of" in Punjabi. But the word is placed after the noun/place name, as in for example in "Panjab da putar", "son of Punjab".

So, I think it's just a coincidental similarity. I can see no connection between the Portuguese and the Punjabi "da".

I have no idea when the first names with preceding "na" were coined. If it was before the advent of the Portuguese in Thailand we could of course happily exclude "da" from the shostlist of possible sources.

[Richard W]

barn and บ้าน?

I don't think there's any connection here. I can't see any Skt. word which is similar to Thai "baan" and I reckon the source is Tai. So the question would be where Engl. "barn" is from.

E. barn < OE ber(e)n, earlier berern, = bere 'barley' + ern, ærn 'house'.

Fang-Kuei Li indeed lists บ้าน as Proto-Tai, with the meaning 'village'.

Just 2 examples for the Skt. - German - Engl. connection: The Skt. root "lug" becomes "lugen" In German (meaning to furtively watch) and "look in Engl.

Onions does not agree on this alleged Sanskrit-Germanic cognate. Both the consonant and the vowel are wrong.

Skt. "go" becomes German "Kuh" and Engl. "cow". Fascinating stuff indeed.

Whence Thai โค.

The closest Skt. word to "baan" I can come up with is "vasa", house, residence place, but that usually changes into "vaat" in Thai. See for example Narathiwat, which is "Thai-ised" Skt. for nara-dhi-vasa, i.e. "dwelling place of intelligent/wise men".

The English cognate here is 'was, were' - the Sanskrit verb means 'remain' as well as 'dwell'.

[Richard W]

What I find particlularly interesting is how via the above connection we find many word in say English and German, which are similar to Thai words - which may appear quite incredible to non-linguists. See words like "fun" (tooth; "Zahn" in German; Skt. danta)

This is also incredible to linguists. The Tai word derives from Proto-Tai *van while the Indo-European words listed (tooth, Zahn, danta) derive from Proto-Indo-European (PIE) *hdonts, *hdnt-, which in turn seens to derive from *hed 'eat', from which we get English eat. (/h/ is the 'laryngeal' H1.) Where does the allegation of the relationship between Thai fan (ฟัน) and German Zahn come from? I've seen it quoted in 'Thailand Handbook' in the Travel Bug series.

The Sanskrit word shows up in normal life ทันตแพทย์ 'dentist'. ทันต์ also means 'tusk', which itself may be an old compound of the 'tooth' word.

or "manut" (man, human being; German "Mensch"; Skt. manushya).

This one is OK. "man" is also related; "human" seems not to be related. The "sch" of Mensch and "sh" of manus are not related.

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

Where does the allegation of the relationship between Thai fan (ฟัน) and German Zahn come from?  I've seen it quoted in 'Thailand Handbook' in the Travel Bug series.

The Sanskrit word shows up in normal life ทันตแพทย์ 'dentist'.  ทันต์ also means 'tusk', which itself may be an old compound of the 'tooth' word.

Can't really recall where I came across the "fan-Zahn" connection.

Skt. "danta" also means tusk, yes, and ivory; see "dantakara", artisan working with ivory.

[sabaijai]

By the way, are the Thai letters I type coming out when you read this posting in the forum? When I type them in the original posting/preview box, they come through fine. But after I post my message and read it in the forum, the Thai letters are replaced with question marks. Yet I can still read Thai letters or words that other members post (my browser is set to read Thai). It's driving me nuts ...

No, alas, I've never seen them as anything but question marks from your postings. Do they survive 'preview post'?

It sounds like a forum support question. The forums at thai-language.com used a UBB with TIS-620 default. If I typed ISO Latin-1 characters with high bit set, they would appear as Latin-1 in the preview, but in the post would appear as Thai characters. Such a solution it could cause a problem here, as on some forums 'fiancée' is rather a common word. I suspect many would not care to have to type é! Purely as a one-off experiment, does it work for you if you use the decimal encodings ไหม Note that 0E00 (hex) is 3584 (decimal).

I use IE6 with Windows XP with Thai selected as the input language (supplemented by some cut and paste) or IE6 with Windows 2000 and relying on cut and paste to assemble the words. I don't fiddle with the browser encoding, which stays as Western European.

Taking a hint from your explanation, I'm writing this from MS IE instead of my usual browser, Opera.

Ghost, the spelling of ศาลา would lead one to think it might come from P/S, but I've read several sources saying it comes from the Portuguese. It could be one of those exceptions Richard noted earlier, where a P/S-derived Thai consonant is used for a foreign import from another language.

However I've never checked a Sanskrit or Pali dictionary to see whether they contained an entry for shala/sala or whether, if they do contain entries for this word, whether they refer to the same thing.

As to what the Thais would have called ศาลา before the Portuguese arrived, who knows. I don't see how that's relevant as there are plenty of P/S-derived words in Thai used for things or ideas that predate Indian influence in Thailand. For example, presumably the Thais had food around long before they began using the Skrt-derived อาหาร.

Well lessee whether IE does what Opera apparently can't ...

[sabaijai]

Blimey, switching browsers apparently did the trick.

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

However I've never checked a Sanskrit or Pali dictionary to see whether they contained an entry for shala/sala or whether, if they do contain entries for this word, whether they refer to the same thing.

Any Skt. dictionary confirms that shala and sala indeed mean the same thing.

If there's a Portuguese word sala, it may have originated from some similar Latin word which in turn possibly can be traced back to a Skt.-related word.

In this respect, see also my submission in the thread on the origin of "Baht", the relationship between "Satang" with Lat. centum and English Cent. Some Skt.-related words in European languages arrived via Latin, and Portuguese sala might just be one of them (my guess).

[sabaijai]

However I've never checked a Sanskrit or Pali dictionary to see whether they contained an entry for shala/sala or whether, if they do contain entries for this word, whether they refer to the same thing.

Any Skt. dictionary confirms that shala and sala indeed mean the same thing.

If there's a Portuguese word sala, it may have originated from some similar Latin word which in turn possibly can be traced back to a Skt.-related word.

In this respect, see also my submission in the thread on the origin of "Baht", the relationship between "Satang" with Lat. centum and English Cent. Some Skt.-related words in European languages arrived via Latin, and Portuguese sala might just be one of them (my guess).

There's definitely a Portuguese sala, meaning room. So PIE is likely the source for the Skrt, Latin, Portuguese, and probably also French & Spanish salon. So that solves that ...

[The Ghost of Phoolan Devi]

There's definitely a Portuguese sala, meaning room. So PIE is likely the source for the Skrt, Latin, Portuguese, and probably also French & Spanish salon. So that solves that ...

It does ... and we get another interesting aspect here.

The Hindi word for "room" is "kamra", which is derived from Portuguese "camara" (Engl. chamber, German Kammer).

So, Portuguese received one word for "room" from an Indic source and gave another back.

Another Portuguese word in Hindi (and Engl.) is indigo, which is traced back to the name Indus (the river), arrived in Portuguese via Greek and Latin, and was finally re-exported in a changed form to the land of its origin. Strange world indeed.

[Richard W]

However I've never checked a Sanskrit or Pali dictionary to see whether they contained an entry for shala/sala or whether, if they do contain entries for this word, whether they refer to the same thing.

Any Skt. dictionary confirms that shala and sala indeed mean the same thing.

If there's a Portuguese word sala, it may have originated from some similar Latin word which in turn possibly can be traced back to a Skt.-related word.

There's definitely a Portuguese sala, meaning room. So PIE is likely the source for the Skrt, Latin, Portuguese, and probably also French & Spanish salon. So that solves that ...

Not quite. Sankrit <s'> (also written <ç>, or, risking confusion with the sibilant of Krishna, as <sh>), = Thai ศ, corresponds to West European <k> or <c>, Germanic <h>, as in Sanskrit s'atam, Greek hekta, Latin centum, Welsh cant, English hundred.

Sankrit s'a:la: is related to Latin cella (> English cell, cellar) and English hall and ######. The PIE root *k^el means 'cover, hide', as also in conceal.

I consulted my Onions about Portuguese sala (nothing occult - I mean the Oxford Etymological Dictionary by C. T. Onions) and found he reckons it is of Germanic origin. Although the word occurs throught the non-Balkan Romance languages (whence English saloon), it does not occur in Latin itself, and forms are found in Old English, Old Saxon, Old High German and Old Norse. German Saal is native.

[snowleopard]

Just an idea which just came to my head: Could it be a shortened version  of Sanskrit "nayaka", chieftain?? (in present-day Thai it's "nayok").

It could make sense as "Na Ayutthaya", Na Thalang", "Na Songhkla" etc. all denote (or denoted) a family of high standing in their respective town.

Chanchao

That's my understanding as well. I think in the old days, the 'governor' (or equivalent thereof) could call himself "Na <province name>" I think 'na' refers just to being 'from' somewhere. Similar to European nobility who often have names indicating the area under their control. 'von' in Germany, 'de' in French, 'of' in English and so on.

Richard W

The idea of "na" being a shortening of "nayok" < "naayaka" (or more likely of the base form, "naai" < "naaya") is appealing. It's interesting though that foreign and modern titles based on placenames are translated into Thai using "haeng".

I've been thinking a bit about the letter ณ (na)used as a word and where I've come across it in my Thai reading.

Here are some examples on how it's used in Thai writings.

1.ณ เวลานี้,ณ บัดนี้=right now (na wela nee,na bat nee)

Example

This expression is used in Thai writings to show what the Buddha said to his bhikkhus after he had achieved enlightenment and told them to go out and spread the message.The Buddha said:

"จงไป ณ บัดนี้ จงเที่ยวไป เพื่อประโยชน์และความสุขแก่ชนเป็นอันมาก"=

"Go now and wander for the welfare and happiness of many,out of compassion for the world."

If you want Buddha's whole quote with translations,you can get it from my thread,"The Philosophy of Buddhism!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...ic=10929&st=0

2.ณ ที่นี้=right here (na tee nee)

Example

ณ ที่นี้คือที่เรียนภาษาอังกฦษ=Right here is a place for studying English.(na tee nee keu tee rian phasa Angkrit)

3.ณ+a company name

Example

สำนักพิมพ์ ณ บ้านวรรณกรรม=Wanakham House Printing Office (Samnak-pim Bahn Wanakham)

4.Royal or common surname+ณ+Ayutthaya;or another place name to denote origin

Example

Royal Surname+title: คุณสุชน มาลากุล ณ อยุธยา=Mr Suchon Malakhun na' Ayutthaya

Common surname+title:คุณสุชน อิ่มสบาย ณ อยุธยา=Mr Suchon Imsabai na' Ayutthaya

For more details,check out my hypothetical story of the two brothers with the na'Ayutthaya title,one Royal and the other adopted,at the thread...

"Thai Citizenship for Foreign Males"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...ic=10130&st=60#

I don't think we have to try and trace the origin of na'Ayutthaya all the way back to ancient Sanskrit!

It seems to me like we're attempting to be over-shooting the mark and make it too old!

I think it's probably either from the Portuguese "da" like in "da Silva" or from the Thai word meaning "this place"!

It might have been both of the above if the use of the Thai "place"-word "na" in na'Ayutthaya drew inspiration from the "da" used at the Portuguese settlements of Ayutthaya or even later from the tiny Portuguese remains left in Bangkok!

The practice of giving surnames to Thai subjects began with King Rama 6,and most Thais I've talked to believe that the usage of the "na" title began at that time too.

King Vajiravudh,whose title was "Phra Mongkut Klao Chaoyuhua",was the second son of King Chulalongkorn,and king from 1910-25.

He was educated in England and later devised a transliteration system for Thai script into English!

He loved poetry and translated Wlliam Shakespeare's entire works into Thai.

At his coronation in 1911,a lot of foreign dignitaries came to the ceremonies in Bangkok.

Among those were members of the Royal families of Great Britain,Sweden,Denmark,Japan and Russia.

I think it's also plausible that King Rama 6 could have gotten inspiration to begin using the Thai "na" from all the "von,af,da,Mc and van's" he met in Europe before the First World War!

That would make the use of "na" less than 100 years old and having originated during the Chakri dynasty of the Rattanakosin period.

This is a long time after the civilization of Ayutthaya had ended because of its destruction by the Burmese!

Cheers.

Snowleopard.