Getting a work permit + business visa as a software developer

[farangchris]

So i already found the Solution to get a work permit+business Visa with Iglu.

But Iglu is pretty expensive, because they're taking 30% of your income for this service and you need to earn at least 2.500$ per month.

Of course in this 30% are also the payed taxes - But it would still cost 600EUR+ per month which is pretty expensive.

 

I found another option with Coofice.asia, they're charging "only" 10.000 Baht per month if you don't need the co-working office.

And you need to earn at least 50.000 Baht per month during the requirements from BOI for working foreigners. So 50k - 10k for the service - 10% income taxes. That's the minimum.

 

But in my opinion 10k per month just for the visa & work-permit is still a bit expensive. It's still around 3.200 EUR per year only for the work permit ...

 

Does anybody knows other and maybe cheaper solutions to get a work-permit + business visa as a freelance software developer?

Edited November 10, 2018 by farangchris

[FritsSikkink]

In these constructions you are working for them and you seem to have trouble with the minimum wage requirements. Why don't you get a job and earn some good money.

[farangchris]

3 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

In these constructions you are working for them and you seem to have trouble with the minimum wage requirements. Why don't you get a job and earn some good money.

Yes, i know that. But i would only work for them on the paper.

At the end i'm working for my own clients. My clients are paying me / my company, my company pays the Thai company and they'll pay me out my salary here in Thailand.

 

I don't have any problems with the minimum wage, i'm earning enough.

But in my opinion 10k per month just for a work-permit is pretty expensive, isn't it?

[jackdd]

9 minutes ago, farangchris said:

But in my opinion 10k per month just for a work-permit is pretty expensive, isn't it?

Then just set up your own company

[ubonjoe]

16 minutes ago, farangchris said:

But in my opinion 10k per month just for a work-permit is pretty expensive, isn't it?

I think that also includes your income tax and social security payments. Iglu breaks down their monthly fee.

[FritsSikkink]

29 minutes ago, farangchris said:

Yes, i know that. But i would only work for them on the paper.

At the end i'm working for my own clients. My clients are paying me / my company, my company pays the Thai company and they'll pay me out my salary here in Thailand.

 

I don't have any problems with the minimum wage, i'm earning enough.

But in my opinion 10k per month just for a work-permit is pretty expensive, isn't it?

You get a visa too

[FritsSikkink]

14 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I think that also includes your income tax and social security payments. Iglu breaks down their monthly fee.

The OP states:

Iglu charges 30% of minimum 2500 USD all included.

Cooffice.asia 10K + 10% tax.

Edited November 10, 2018 by FritsSikkink

[farangchris]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

You get a visa too

Yes, you get the Non-B Visa + work-permit, but they're not paying anything for the Visa - I pay it at the end.

 

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

The OP states:

Iglu charges 30% of minimum 2500 USD all included.

Cooffice.asia 10K + 10% tax.

Correct. The taxes of course are depending on your Income. If you earn more then 500.000 Baht per Year it's 15%. 10% tax will only be charged if you're getting the minimum salary. 500k to 750k per year 15% etc. Iglu also provides a Co-working space with an internet connection etc. But i don't need a co-working space.

 

If i would pay me all out as a salary i would pay 25% ( 1,000,000 – 2,000,000 Baht per year ).

 

Anyway: So no one knows maybe a cheaper service for a work-permit+B visa?

Edited November 10, 2018 by farangchris

[ukrules]

7 minutes ago, farangchris said:

If i would pay me all out as a salary i would pay 25% ( 1,000,000 – 2,000,000 Baht per year ).

 

Only an idiot would use a service like this and pay themselves 2 million Baht per year through the service with their percentage rates and pay Thai tax on top of that.

 

The logical way would be to pay yourself the bare minimum allowed through invoices to your off shore corporation or maybe even personal invoices.

Edited November 10, 2018 by ukrules

[farangchris]

27 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

Only an idiot would use a service like this and pay themselves 2 million Baht per year through the service with their percentage rates and pay Thai tax on top of that.

 

The logical way would be to pay yourself the bare minimum allowed through invoices to your off shore corporation or maybe even personal invoices.

Therefore i said if i would. And Cooffice.asia doesn't charge their fee based on your Income as i said. They're only charging 10k per month unlike Iglu.

 

And an offshore company would not make much sense, because you have your tax-residence in Thailand. Such a company - for example Hong Kong or even a Canada LP or UK LLP - etc. would only make sense if you don't have a permanent (tax) residence in Thailand or if you live in a country with territorial taxation or a non-dom system ... Like Malaysia, Georgia, Panama, the UAE etc.

 

Anyway, no reason to to be rude and saying other people are idiots ...

Edited November 10, 2018 by farangchris

[JackThompson]

15 hours ago, farangchris said:

And an offshore company would not make much sense, because you have your tax-residence in Thailand. Such a company - for example Hong Kong or even a Canada LP or UK LLP - etc. would only make sense if you don't have a permanent (tax) residence in Thailand or if you live in a country with territorial taxation or a non-dom system ... Like Malaysia, Georgia, Panama, the UAE etc.

I am not an expert on this - so anyone feel free to correct:

 

The point would be to send into Thailand only the bare-min to meet the visa/extension/ requirements and pay tax on that.  This could be a "salary" paid to you by your company (or other ways) for "work" you are doing for your company. 

 

Any other money your take out of your offshore-corp would be capital-gains.  Thai taxes are only due on money remitted to Thailand in the year earned, so leave any other earnings offshore for a year.

 

16 hours ago, farangchris said:

Anyway: So no one knows maybe a cheaper service for a work-permit+B visa?

You just found a much better option than Iglu - thanks for sharing.  Iglu's rates were crazy-expensive. 

 

Consider that the Elite only costs 100K/yr for their 5-year option (500K Baht up-front, though).  I'm no fan of that program, but still less-expensive and less-hassle.  Granted, you would be working in a grey-area / technically-illegal (debate on this, but that's my opinion from the last time I looked at it).  Recent rule-changes for what is considered "work" have been relaxed, so any enforcement (not happened yet) is possibly even less likely than before.

 

To set up your own corporation in Thailand would probably cost as much or more to lawyer/accountant/fees, and requires 2M Baht capital.

[farangchris]

On 11/11/2018 at 11:22 AM, JackThompson said:

Consider that the Elite only costs 100K/yr for their 5-year option (500K Baht up-front, though). 

But an Elite visa is still a tourist visa. So you're basically not allowed to work and you don't have a work-permit.

On 11/11/2018 at 11:22 AM, JackThompson said:

The point would be to send into Thailand only the bare-min to meet the visa/extension/ requirements and pay tax on that.  This could be a "salary" paid to you by your company (or other ways) for "work" you are doing for your company. 

 

Any other money your take out of your offshore-corp would be capital-gains.  Thai taxes are only due on money remitted to Thailand in the year earned, so leave any other earnings offshore for a year.

Yes, if you keep the money for almost over a year in the company it would be tax-free in Thailand. But i'm not earning thaaatt much, that i can save so much money in one year that i can also live from this money. So for me it would not make any sense ????

 

On 11/11/2018 at 11:22 AM, JackThompson said:

To set up your own corporation in Thailand would probably cost as much or more to lawyer/accountant/fees, and requires 2M Baht capital.

Yea .. setting up a Thai company is no option for me. I would love to, but the requirements are a joke ????

On 11/11/2018 at 11:22 AM, JackThompson said:

Iglu's rates were crazy-expensive.

mh ... Their fees are not thaaattt expensive i think. They're charging you 30% of your income, but this includes almost 20% Income Tax. So at the end Iglu is only charging 10% of your income. And if you think about it: It depends all on your Income. 

 

For example: If you're from a western country you need to earn at least 50.000 Baht per month as a foreigner.

Cooffice.asia is charging you 10.000 Baht per month for their service/work permit. So this is 20% from 50.000 and your Income is still not taxed. If you're earning 50.000 Baht per month, you're paying 15% Income tax. In total you would pay 35% of your income with Cooffice.asia if you're earning for example the minimum of 50k per month.

 

Iglu is charging 30% of your income ( taxes already included ), but you have to earn at least ~ 82.000 Baht per month ( 2.500$ )

Cooffice.asia is charging 10.000 Baht for their service, which makes 12.2% of your Income if you would earn ~82.000 Baht. And then you have to pay 20% Taxes ( total = 32.2% ). 

 

And: Cooffice.asia is charging 10.000 Baht only if you don't use the Office. With Iglu this is also included in their 30% fee. So you can use their Office with Internet connection etc.

 

In total Cooffice.asia is even more expensive, isn't it?

Edited November 13, 2018 by farangchris

[balo]

I only work as a digital nomad so can't really comment. I kept my address in my home country where I also pay my taxes.

Anyway I would go for the Elite visa. 

 

[farangchris]

9 minutes ago, balo said:

I only work as a digital nomad so can't really comment. I kept my address in my home country where I also pay my taxes.

Anyway I would go for the Elite visa. 

 

Any DN is working almost illegal. Because you're not allowed to work in almost every country on earth without a work-permit.

And again: An elite visa is just a tourist visa. You're actually not allowed to work here without a work permit.

I know, nobody cares - Me neither ????

But i want to live here legally and work with a work-permit.

[balo]

2 hours ago, farangchris said:

Any DN is working almost illegal. Because you're not allowed to work in almost every country on earth without a work-permit.

A small correction, you can work remotely if your company and customers are outside of Thailand and your bank account and income is outside of Thailand. You pay your taxes there. 

 

However you can not live here permanently as you intend to do.,

Edited November 13, 2018 by balo

[jackdd]

2 hours ago, farangchris said:

Any DN is working almost illegal. Because you're not allowed to work in almost every country on earth without a work-permit.

And again: An elite visa is just a tourist visa. You're actually not allowed to work here without a work permit.

I know, nobody cares - Me neither ????

But i want to live here legally and work with a work-permit.

If you take the law literally nearly everything you do in Thailand could be considered work and would be illegal.

But in the recent times the Department of Employment confirmed on several occasions that they don't consider working online (customers abroad, money comes from abroad) as "working in Thailand" so no work permit or specific visa required and you can legally do it while here on a tourist visa. This could of course change in the future, but currently they don't have a problem with it.

Edited November 13, 2018 by jackdd

[ukrules]

11 minutes ago, jackdd said:

If you take the law literally nearly everything you do in Thailand could be considered work and would be illegal.

 

This used to be the case and was correct for many years right up until they introduced the 'Emergency Decree on Managing the Work of Aliens B.E. 2561 (No.2)' - this changed the law only a few months ago.

 

Quote

The definition of “work” has been revised to "performing any profession, whether or not there is an employer, excluding business operations of a foreign business license's holder under the Foreign Business Act" - comparing with the previous definition of "exerting one's physical energy or employing one's knowledge to perform a profession or perform work, whether or not for wages or other benefits".

 

Source for above quote : https://www.bakermckenzie.com/en/insight/publications/2018/04/new-amendments-to-the-work-permit-law

 

There's a very big difference between those two, under the old description something as benign as 'walking to the shops' could have been considered working as it exerts physical energy, as such it was one of the dumbest and most shortsighted laws ever passed in the entire history of world law since the days when witchcraft and sorcery were first deemed illegal.

 

Also see here : https://home.kpmg.com/xx/en/home/insights/2018/09/flash-alert-2018-127.html

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by ukrules

[farangchris]

1 hour ago, balo said:

A small correction, you can work remotely if your company and customers are outside of Thailand and your bank account and income is outside of Thailand. You pay your taxes there. 

 

However you can not live here permanently as you intend to do.,

No you're not allowed to work. The company has nothing to do with the work-permit. You're not allowed to work in Thailand or almost every other country without a valid work-permit.

 

But even if you would be allowed to work: You're still without a Non-B visa ????

 

One of the best examples would be maybe the U.S they're really strict.

I know someone who where rejected at the border, because he said he's also working on his Macbook ????  True story .. 

 

But anyway. So i think in Thailand there's no real other solution then Iglu ... ????

Edited November 13, 2018 by farangchris

[jackdd]

1 minute ago, farangchris said:

You're not allowed to work in Thailand or almost every other country without a valid work-permit.

 

41 minutes ago, jackdd said:

the Department of Employment confirmed on several occasions that they don't consider working online (customers abroad, money comes from abroad) as "working in Thailand" so no work permit or specific visa required and you can legally do it while here on a tourist visa.

 

[farangchris]

They changed the law two month's ago?

Because i already asked the doe a few months ago. And they said it's not allowed. Even if your clients are from abroad, your company etc.

 

If that would be the case i could live 100% tax-free in Thailand lol ????

 

But anyway: As i said - It's not only about the work-permit, because you're getting also the Non-B visa.

Edited November 13, 2018 by farangchris

[JackThompson]

12 minutes ago, farangchris said:

They changed the law two month's ago?

Because i already asked the doe a few months ago. And they said it's not allowed. Even if your clients are from abroad, your company etc.

 

If that would be the case i could live 100% tax-free in Thailand lol ????

Only if you lived on savings - not income coming in while living here.  In general, the rule is "income remitted to Thailand in the year earned" - but some claim that if one is physically here while typing on their keyboard, they would still owe taxes on the income (depending on dual-tax treaties and such).

 

12 minutes ago, farangchris said:

But anyway: As i said - It's not only about the work-permit, because you're getting also the Non-B visa.

Yes.  This is where you would want to do some research into "best value" on all stay-options.  The new co-office offer at least brings the cost close to other stay-options.  One option would be to study Thai language on an EDU visa for 18-months, while mulling-over the options.

[farangchris]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

Only if you lived on savings - not income coming in while living here.  In general, the rule is "income remitted to Thailand in the year earned" - but some claim that if one is physically here while typing on their keyboard, they would still owe taxes on the income (depending on dual-tax treaties and such).

 

Yes.  This is where you would want to do some research into "best value" on all stay-options.  The new co-office offer at least brings the cost close to other stay-options.  One option would be to study Thai language on an EDU visa for 18-months, while mulling-over the options.

I am currently on an ED visa ????

But i need also a work-permit to pay taxes here in Thailand. Because if i can't proof that i am paying taxes where i live / having my tax residence ( Thailand ) - I can get in serious trouble with the tax-authorities from my home country.

 

But i think Iglu would be a good choice. At the end they're only charging 10% of your income and they do all the work related to a company such as invoices, filing taxes etc. etc. so you can 100% focus on your work ????

Edited November 13, 2018 by farangchris

[JackThompson]

On 11/13/2018 at 8:05 PM, farangchris said:

I am currently on an ED visa ????

But i need also a work-permit to pay taxes here in Thailand. Because if i can't proof that i am paying taxes where i live / having my tax residence ( Thailand ) - I can get in serious trouble with the tax-authorities from my home country.

 

But i think Iglu would be a good choice. At the end they're only charging 10% of your income and they do all the work related to a company such as invoices, filing taxes etc. etc. so you can 100% focus on your work ????

If you can afford these options, you could afford opening an offshore corporation somewhere like the British Virgin Islands, Hong Kong, etc (many options).  These cost btw $1K and $2K USD to set up, last I checked.  This would give you a "home" for your business, with greatly reduced tax-liabilities, vs most of our home countries or even Thailand.  Then, remit only the minimum here - even if using something like one of these Thai-BOI-visa-offer companies.

 

As far as invoicing, the only savings I see is clicking "send" - given only someone who could detail the work done, could write the invoice.  If they included lawyers to sue for late-collection, in whatever country the client is in, I'd find it more attractive.  Annual tax-filings for my home country (USA) usually take me a day, tops.

 

I'd be happy to set up my business here and pay higher-taxes direct to Thailand, if they would get rid of the pointless 2M Baht capital requirement, and offer a visa in exchange.  I'd even hire Thai coding-staff, in that case - would be my pleasure to do even more to help the locals (I already spend my money at their businesses). 

 

But, I'm sure not paying business+personal taxes here PLUS putting a pile of "stuck" money in some account and paying a small-fortune to some BOI entity (likely expensive because they have to pay-off immigration, like agents do), on top.  Until things change, all my business operations must remain offshore.

[onera1961]

If understand it correctly, if my income is 65K per month from outside Thailand (50K salary to myself + 10K coffee asia fee + 5K taxes), coffee asia is going to give me a B visa and WP. And with that WP, I can work remotely for a foreign client. Is my understanding correct?

I am on an O-A visa (cannot work in Thailand) but if I get an offer for consulting work (software architecture/design/development etc.), at present, my plan is to fly back to the USA and finish the project and then come back again to Thailand, provided the offer is lucrative enough for me to save at least 60K per visit living in the USA for two/three months. Most of these work can be done online with one or two visits to clients for maximum of a working week. 

If my understanding is correct (65K/month income), I see some benefits at least for me and others who want to be semi-retired for SS to kick in for full retirement. It will also keep me engaged at least 30-40% time in earning some money while I am in Thailand. Other benefits I see are free medical coverage in Thailand (Government Hospital), SS for the future (meagre amount, I suppose). 

Any comments?

[JackThompson]

59 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

I am on an O-A visa (cannot work in Thailand) but if I get an offer for consulting work (software architecture/design/development etc.), at present, my plan is to fly back to the USA and finish the project and then come back again to Thailand, provided the offer is lucrative enough for me to save at least 60K per visit living in the USA for two/three months. Most of these work can be done online with one or two visits to clients for maximum of a working week. 

If my understanding is correct (65K/month income), I see some benefits at least for me and others who want to be semi-retired for SS to kick in for full retirement. It will also keep me engaged at least 30-40% time in earning some money while I am in Thailand. Other benefits I see are free medical coverage in Thailand (Government Hospital), SS for the future (meagre amount, I suppose). 

Any comments?

As to replacing your existing consulting-work plan - better if you don't have to go back to the USA for those in-person meetings.  If you do, that depends on your costs to get/stay there, etc.  Maybe could tele-conference?  If so, one could also do this in a nearby country, if worried about Thailand suddenly starting to enforce a "no offshore work" rule.  My opinion, is they are becoming less concerned about this, rather than more-so - but who knows what the future will bring.

 

As to the Thai health-benefit - this is is a very good point - and you can continue to pay it independently, after you Thai-job ends - a tiny premium.  That, alone, might be worth doing something like this for a year (to qualify for continuing the coverage).  Any Thai employment (legal, of course) will allow this option (teaching English, etc).

[onera1961]

23 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

If you do, that depends on your costs to get/stay there, etc.  Maybe could tele-conference?  If so, one could also do this in a nearby country,

Can't do tele-conference because the time zone difference will kill me (have to wake up in the middle of the night) and also sometimes clients want me to visit them in-person. As per doing in a nearby country (unless Singapore or Malaysia), I doubt they will have high  speed internet and quality to keep the connection smooth and uninterrupted to USA through a VPN. 

Edited November 18, 2018 by onera1961

[SymS]

On 11/10/2018 at 7:01 PM, farangchris said:

Correct. The taxes of course are depending on your Income. If you earn more then 500.000 Baht per Year it's 15%. 10% tax will only be charged if you're getting the minimum salary. 500k to 750k per year 15% etc. Iglu also provides a Co-working space with an internet connection etc. But i don't need a co-working space.

 

Anyway: So no one knows maybe a cheaper service for a work-permit+B visa?

For 10K Baht per monthly + tax that's a very good deal. Your effective tax rate would be much lower than the top tax rate. For example with a 100,000 Baht monthly salary plus maximum deduction for LTF and RMF, you'd pay an effective rate of 4.43% (53,150 Baht) according to the calculator @ http://tigerthailands.com/network/gao/payroll2017/index.html

It looks like you'd also have to had the 9,000 Baht per year for social security contribution, since I doubt it's part of the 10,000 Baht monthly fee.

[dcnx]

As a software developer who doesn’t need a co-shared office, that means you’re working from home. No one is going to know you’re working if you work from home. There are plenty of agents that can get the ED and you don’t have to go to school, and it costs much less. Works out to around 4000b per month or so. They can shove their 10k + 10% tax baht or 30% if all you need is a way to stay and work from a condo.

 

But if your goal is to do local business then you’ll absolutely want to be above board on all of this. 10k per month might be cheaper than getting a lawyer and having ghost employees.

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, dcnx said:

As a software developer who doesn’t need a co-shared office, that means you’re working from home. No one is going to know you’re working if you work from home. There are plenty of agents that can get the ED and you don’t have to go to school, and it costs much less. Works out to around 4000b per month or so. ..

They reduced the ED hours back to a reasonable level, so attending isn't as much of an impact as when they first began their so-called crackdown.  Unfortunately, the "no hassle" fees to immigration are reported up in a recent post.  In many areas, regardless of attending class, the "no hassle" fee through your school is the only way to avoid short-extensions, quizzes, etc. 

 

Some might say, "Well, then why bother going, if I will be paying like a criminal, anyway?" Certainly, this policy of immigration is reducing attendance, but the way I see it, you are paying for classes, so might as well do the right thing and improve one's Thai at the same time. 

[farangchris]

On 11/18/2018 at 12:06 PM, onera1961 said:

If understand it correctly, if my income is 65K per month from outside Thailand (50K salary to myself + 10K coffee asia fee + 5K taxes), coffee asia is going to give me a B visa and WP. And with that WP, I can work remotely for a foreign client. Is my understanding correct?

I am on an O-A visa (cannot work in Thailand) but if I get an offer for consulting work (software architecture/design/development etc.), at present, my plan is to fly back to the USA and finish the project and then come back again to Thailand, provided the offer is lucrative enough for me to save at least 60K per visit living in the USA for two/three months. Most of these work can be done online with one or two visits to clients for maximum of a working week. 

If my understanding is correct (65K/month income), I see some benefits at least for me and others who want to be semi-retired for SS to kick in for full retirement. It will also keep me engaged at least 30-40% time in earning some money while I am in Thailand. Other benefits I see are free medical coverage in Thailand (Government Hospital), SS for the future (meagre amount, I suppose). 

Any comments?

The taxes are depending on your Income. If you earn between 750 and 1.000.000 Baht per year, you're paying 20% income tax in Thailand. You can read more about the tax rates here -> https://www.thethailandlife.com/income-tax-thailand

 

So if you earn 65.000 Baht per month = 780.000 per year = 20% income tax.

65.000 Baht - 20% Income tax = 13.000 Baht

So you have 52.000 - 10.000 for Cooffice = 42.000 Baht 

 

With Iglu:

65.000 - 30% ( everything included ) = 19.500 = 45.500 Baht

 

So Iglu is even cheaper! ????

And they're doing everything for you. File taxes, taking care of your taxes, invoice your clients. You can focus yourself 100% on your work. But with Iglu you need to earn at least 2.500$ per month or 82.000 Baht.

 

Iglu:

82.000 - 30% = 24.600 Baht

Total net income = 57.400 Baht

 

Cooffice.asia

82.000 - 20% Income tax = 65.600 Baht

65.600 - 10.000 Baht ( cooffice fees )

Total net income: 55.600 Baht

 

The benefit is: You can legally live here "for ever" without any visa hassles.

And yes: You will be employed by them, to get your business visa+work permit. But you're actually still working for your own clients. If you don't have a company, they will also invoice your clients with their Thai company.

 

Another benefit would be also, that your spouse is getting also a Visa to stay here. So if you have children they will also get a visa and your wife also, if you're married.

 

But as i said above: It also depends on your income. Iglu might be cheaper - They charge 30% of your income, but this includes also the 20% income taxes. So at the end, Iglu is only charging 10%.

 

And sure: You're getting also the national health care. Or you could get a loan from a bank for a car .. 

And: You can work and live here legally for a pretty small amount of money.

Edited November 22, 2018 by farangchris