Floor tiles popping up, ground sinking?

[MadMac]

Guys, need some advice. Had some weird thing happening today noon. After some noises, nephew heard while cleaning the room, we had a complete row of 2-3 60x60 tiles popping out of the floor, across the extension building. 20 pieces in total. Some more are lose.

 

This extension was built after the main house and is attached to it. So I assume the ground itself had enough time to settle, should be more than 14 years now.

First I thought it was an earthquake, but after checking online there was none recently. Walked around the house, no visible cracks or anything else. Which led me to the conclusion it may be some old water drainage underneath. These were rice fields as everywhere and the crack line goes parallel to another known pipe just 10m to the east.

 

I measured the distance over 3 tiles. It is 180.3 cm, meaning there is less than 1mm in between each. It's lousy quality, just plain cement was used. So the rest will be the same sh*t. Impossible that it could stick.

 

My idea, as I have none really what to do. If it is really a problem with the ground below, it would not make any sense to  put the tiles back. At least not completely. Perhaps it would make sense to add a 2 tiles wide wooden corridor, like you have in the bedrooms. Made of 1.20m wide parquet tiles. Thickness should be comparable, so no major bumps, and it may even look good.

 

Question, has anyone encountered something like that and what was your solution? Question 2, where could I get the parquet pieces from, old used ones would be fine. This all happened in Nong Khwai, Hang Dong, Chiang Mai. 

 

Thanks for ideas!

[sanemax]

Old tiles expanding  , happens quite often , I dont know why they dont put rubber filler down the middle of one of the joints to allow for expansion

[MadMac]

Unlikely they expanded as they are still exactly 60cm in each direction and will be in a 1000 years. But that's an explanation the guy who messed up that sh*t with the previous owner may have given ????

[pastprime]

Lived third floor condo once  tiles always coming up,building itself shifting

[steve73]

I've had this problem in the house I rent... on upper floors and an outside balcony.

 

I think it's due to the usual Thai method of butting tiles tight up against each other when laying them, rather than using spacers with a slightly wider grout fill.  If the tiles do expand even a little bit (either through heat or moisture) then there is nothing to take up the expansion except lifting.  Use of a simple cement mortar doesn't help as well.

 

You may be able to reuse the old tiles using proper tile cement, but use a diamond disc to shave a little off the edges first to give them a little room to expand and use spacers (plastic X's or even bits of cocktail stick) to prevent a recurrence.  Use the disc to clean any old mortar off the back of them, but even using tile cement, the repaired tiles will always be a little proud of the originals (which of course may pop-up in the future).  Best to remove all of them and re-lay completely either with proper tile cement, providing you can accept your floor a mm or so higher.

 

In my rental, I've simply left the patch of a dozen or so a little proud, but I have noticed others close by are starting to loosen and lift.

[MadMac]

Yep, I have the tools, and that was the original plan earlier today. May still do it, the tiles were not of equal height anyways, Thai style :). What concerns me is the straight line it happened across the floor. So perhaps I wait a bit first if there will be more sinking. Looks stable but less than a millimeter did it today.

[steve73]

btw, my rental is over 40 years old (middle of a block of townhouses)... so I doubt I'm getting any current movement.. but I do get rain leaking through the concrete roof, and it's the wet patches that tend to have lifted - also in blocks 2 tiles wide by perhaps 5-8 long.

You may be able to clean off a little of the original mortar base to give room for the new tile cement, and re-set them at the original height.

GL.

[eyecatcher]

Its called tenting and there are many reasons it happens....most of which are down to how the tiles were laid. Then there is moisture getting inside which delaminates them.

If the tiles have expanded they will not go back down.

Spend some time googling this, lots of reasons and info and you may be able to pick out the reason that applies to yours.

 

There is of course an outside chance that your slab has been built on clay and the ground is heaving thus braking its back...

[steve187]

the correct way to do it is to remove all the tiles, most will be loose as they are porcelain, and the incorrect adhesive was used, level the floor with thin bed tile adhesive and then re-tile using adhesive suitable for porcelain using a notched trowel, and leave a 3mm gap between tiles.

 

i have done this in several rooms in Thailand, it is caused by expansion and no joints between the tiles.

[MadMac]

Adhesive used was plain cement, can see on the pic. Lousy quality. It lasted so long, the previous owner got it done. So it will be lose, I know. But we're talking here about 50 sqm and I have no intention to rip it all apart. That I have to do it myself and not another Somchai is no question anyways. So I'm looking for the way of lowest resistance.

 

[Patriot1066]

1 hour ago, pastprime said:

Lived third floor condo once  tiles always coming up,building itself shifting

We had it with one of our condos on the 10th floor no building movement as such in the main structure all on same concrete slab. In the U.K. I have had it with wall tiles in bathrooms where the middle of the wall tiles have popped into a tent shape on the join.

 

My builder in UK tells me it's thermal movement between the differing things, Structure, screed, adhesive and tiles. All react slightly differently and sooner or later it manifests itself as the tiles lifting.

 

Sounds convincing, but I am no expert.

 

 

[fredob43]

It's been caused by the idiots that laid them in the first place. Cement to dry and the tiles not soaked. Also no gap between the tiles.

 

Sorry but only one cure take the lot up and relay. Try tapping the rest if they sound hollow (more than likely) they are also buggered.

 

Solution take the lot up as said and clean any old cement high bits. Put a sealer on old cement. Replace tiles with a good adhesive leaving a small gap between the new tiles. Anything else will just be a bodge job.

 

Tip they don't charge a lot to do it, get the locals to sort it. 

 

I just had some tiles laid here around 15sm cost for that to do was under 2th bht labour. 

Edited November 12, 2018 by fredob43

[Patriot1066]

44 minutes ago, fredob43 said:

It's been caused by the idiots that laid them in the first place. Cement to dry and the tiles not soaked. Also no gap between the tiles.

 

Sorry but only one cure take the lot up and relay. Try tapping the rest if they sound hollow (more than likely) they are also buggered.

 

Solution take the lot up as said and clean any old cement high bits. Put a sealer on old cement. Replace tiles with a good adhesive leaving a small gap between the new tiles. Anything else will just be a bodge job.

 

Tip they don't charge a lot to do it, get the locals to sort it. 

 

I just had some tiles laid here around 15sm cost for that to do was under 2th bht labour. 

That’s what we did with ours as gluing down doesn’t work too well.

[eyecatcher]

Absolutely no need to soak floor or wall tiles.

Yes a typical mortar bed will be squeezed dry of moisture in less than a minute resulting not in DE bonding but never being stuck in the first place.

There is a way arou d this, two ways....

First try to disrgard the local idea of all floor tiles needing to be set at 50mm up from the deck. Its a habit of theirs and a bad habit geared simply to avoid using proper floor tile adhesive.

If you find the level does need to be raised and the giant mortar tub is already getting a good workout make sure you have them mix some weber in a seperate bucket and butter each tile prior to setting.

The weber has the correct properties to resist rapid moisture pull and it will bond nicely into the mortar.

Remember, floor tile adhesives were developed for a reason, probably this very reason.

[steve187]

40 minutes ago, eyecatcher said:

Absolutely no need to soak floor or wall tiles.

Yes a typical mortar bed will be squeezed dry of moisture in less than a minute resulting not in DE bonding but never being stuck in the first place.

There is a way arou d this, two ways....

First try to disrgard the local idea of all floor tiles needing to be set at 50mm up from the deck. Its a habit of theirs and a bad habit geared simply to avoid using proper floor tile adhesive.

If you find the level does need to be raised and the giant mortar tub is already getting a good workout make sure you have them mix some weber in a seperate bucket and butter each tile prior to setting.

The weber has the correct properties to resist rapid moisture pull and it will bond nicely into the mortar.

Remember, floor tile adhesives were developed for a reason, probably this very reason.

are you saying use the weber adhesive straight onto wet sand and cement.

 

if so where did you get your experience in tiling, because in 40+ years of tiling i have never heard such bad advice. the floor needs to be dry and dust free before using thin bed adhesive, as do the tiles, if the tiles are porcelain, then back buttering the tiles will help them stick, as long as everything is dry.

[Jingthing]

It's been caused by the idiots that laid them in the first place. Cement to dry and the tiles not soaked. Also no gap between the tiles.
 
Sorry but only one cure take the lot up and relay. Try tapping the rest if they sound hollow (more than likely) they are also buggered.
 
Solution take the lot up as said and clean any old cement high bits. Put a sealer on old cement. Replace tiles with a good adhesive leaving a small gap between the new tiles. Anything else will just be a bodge job.
 
Tip they don't charge a lot to do it, get the locals to sort it. 
 
I just had some tiles laid here around 15sm cost for that to do was under 2th bht labour. 

2k or 20k?

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[steve73]

100 bt/sq_m was a typical labour cost for laying floor or wall tiles, for a reasonable area, without too much cutting required... but that was a few years ago & in a non-farang area.  I've heard 2-3x that nowadays. 

And need to add a bit for lifting and prepping the old tiles...

Nevertheless, closer to 5k than 20k for 15sq_m.

[eyecatcher]

44 minutes ago, steve187 said:

are you saying use the weber adhesive straight onto wet sand and cement.

 

if so where did you get your experience in tiling, because in 40+ years of tiling i have never heard such bad advice. the floor needs to be dry and dust free before using thin bed adhesive, as do the tiles, if the tiles are porcelain, then back buttering the tiles will help them stick, as long as everything is dry.

I am saying this the next best thing when the floor is built up with mortar.

You will also note I particularly mentioned not soaking the tiles.

 

So come on then Steve, you caught the team bucket loading mortar onto your lounge floor what are You going to do?

 

Ps...A bloke with similar number of years construction experience has given out the worst advice you ever heard about tiling.

Thats some achievement then!

[fredob43]

41 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

2k or 20k?

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

2k or Two thousand BHT if you prefer it like that. Took the man 3 days to do as my floor had a ditch in it so had to be levelled first. That was labour and cement/sand I did pay extra for the tiles 99bt a sq mt for those. Snap of part of what they did. I will be using the space for putting my deep freezes in as well and another two fridges. Not got round to it yet as it's only been done for just over 8 months. Rome wasn't built in a day you know.

Edited November 12, 2018 by fredob43

[steve187]

19 minutes ago, eyecatcher said:

I am saying this the next best thing when the floor is built up with mortar.

You will also note I particularly mentioned not soaking the tiles.

 

So come on then Steve, you caught the team bucket loading mortar onto your lounge floor what are You going to do?

 

Ps...A bloke with similar number of years construction experience has given out the worst advice you ever heard about tiling.

Thats some achievement then!

if the floor is already laid and the tiles are then removed , which would not be a hard job , then prep the floor with some thin bed tile adhesive to smooth over all the bumps, allow to dry and then with a suitable for porcelain good thin bed tile adhesive such as weber, use a notched trowel to lay the tiles with a 3mm ish joint, and back butter the tiles as well, i have done the same thing to a friends house other here, we used new tiles in one bedroom and reused the existing tiles in the other 2 bedrooms.

over here they use sand and cement about 30mm or so thick and build up one tile at a time, this leaves holes in the corners and porcelain will not stick to sand and cement

 

over here the going rate is about 100/150 baht a metre labour only for thick bed sand and cent fixing , in the UK for thin bed adhesive fixing labour only its about £20/£40 a metre,  last year i had 100 metres done outside using sand and cement, with falls etc, the guy made a really good job, i didn't use porcelain tiles though. no puddles when it rains,

Edited November 12, 2018 by steve187

[janclaes47]

1 hour ago, steve187 said:

are you saying use the weber adhesive straight onto wet sand and cement.

 

if so where did you get your experience in tiling, because in 40+ years of tiling i have never heard such bad advice. the floor needs to be dry and dust free before using thin bed adhesive, as do the tiles, if the tiles are porcelain, then back buttering the tiles will help them stick, as long as everything is dry.

Large tiles are laid glue on a mix of sand and cement.

[Patriot1066]

28 minutes ago, steve187 said:

if the floor is already laid and the tiles are then removed , which would not be a hard job , then prep the floor with some thin bed tile adhesive to smooth over all the bumps, allow to dry and then with a suitable for porcelain good thin bed tile adhesive such as weber, use a notched trowel to lay the tiles with a 3mm ish joint, and back butter the tiles as well, i have done the same thing to a friends house other here, we used new tiles in one bedroom and reused the existing tiles in the other 2 bedrooms.

over here they use sand and cement about 30mm or so thick and build up one tile at a time, this leaves holes in the corners and porcelain will not stick to sand and cement

 

over here the going rate is about 100/150 baht a metre labour only for thick bed sand and cent fixing , in the UK for thin bed adhesive fixing labour only its about £20/£40 a metre,  last year i had 100 metres done outside using sand and cement, with falls etc, the guy made a really good job, i didn't use porcelain tiles though. no puddles when it rains,

We made the mistake on an outside path using porcelain and realised why they were cheaper than the ceramic as the guys just couldn’t cut them very well, but they look good down. The shop was reducing them as none of the contractors would buy them. I paid 300 bhatg square meter in CM including their materials. Hard to get Toledo’s as developments swallow up the decent ones?

[MadMac]

Noone please makes another story of lousy quality by another <deleted> somchai here ????

[Flow]

Building is shifting. Happened to me years ago when I was living in an apartment complex. Needless to say, I moved out FAST.

[MadMac]

It's a house, and from the house it's an annex, 50sqm, something like that, and I don't move out of the house because of 20 tiles. Lastet for about 8 years I guess, previous owner did not take proper care. Anyways, got new tiles and will be fixed. End of the world has still to come ????