Report on 'Town Hall' Meeting by the US Embassy on 20 November

[pookiki]

As a member of Democrats Abroad Thailand (DAT), I received the following email on 26 November:

 

As a service to our members and their American friends, DA Thailand is providing a report compiled by our DAT Vice-Chair Gary Suwannarat, who recently attended a town hall organized on November 20, 2018, by the US Consulate in Chiang Mai.

Please note that this is provided to alert members to upcoming changes but does not constitute legal advice; questions about your particular situation and circumstances should be addressed to Thai Immigration officers or to immigration lawyers.

This affects those living in Thailand on retirement visas. US Consular Offices (as well as those of the UK and Australia) will no longer notarize income certifications after December 31, 2018.

Gary Suwannarat’s report is as follows:

Chiang Mai US Consul General Jennifer Harhigh and overall Thailand Consul General Timothy Scherer spoke to some 200 Americans concerned about this upcoming change in income certification procedures for Americans applying for retirement visas, or renewal of an expiring retirement visa. This impacts many of the estimated 70,000-75,000 Americans on long-term visas in Thailand, some 20,000 of whom are served by the Chiang Mai Consulate, covering the CM Consular District from Chiang Rai in the north to Pichit, Pitasanuloke and Tak in the south.

Scherer indicated that there is no change in Thai law. However, as part of a global review of US consular operations, it was found that US consular offices in Thailand issue an unusually high number of income affidavits. This was raised in consular dialogue with Thai authorities, who then realized that the notarized affidavit affirms only that the named citizen appeared before a US Consular officer, but does not constitute proof of income, as required by Thai law as detailed in Police Order 777/2551, which governs visa approvals. (See partial translated text below.) Similar changes are reported regarding the UK and Australia, and in the offing for citizens of other countries who have significant populations of retired persons living in Thailand.

The US Embassy and the Immigration Division held discussions regarding how to ease the transition to new regulations, resulting in the Thai Immigration Division extending the validity of notarized income certification for 6 months from date of notarization. Notarization obtained by December 31, 2018 will be accepted until end-June, 2019. (Note: the Consular calendar in Chiang Mai is filling up fast.)

Follow-up comments indicated that the Chiang Mai Immigration Office earlier this year instituted a requirement of proof of income, supporting the Consular-notarized income affidavit. (Note: My contact with Chiang Mai Immigration officials indicates that they want both the Consulate notarization and back-up documentation.) Scherer acknowledged that Immigration Offices around Thailand exercise discretion in applying regulations, so there may be some inconsistencies.

One commenter said he had asked his US bank to provide a statement which summed his variable income for the year, reported as average monthly income, which was accepted for retirement visa purposes. Scherer stressed the importance of obtaining bank documents that, like this case, indicate as clearly as possible that income meets the Thai criteria.
Scherer further indicated that Embassy officials are working with Thai Immigration officials to familiarize them with financial reporting formats of the Social Security Administration, Veterans Affairs and major firms managing IRAs. The value of using standard income and retirement income reports (1099 and 1099-R) was mentioned.

Audience members applauded the suggestion that the Embassy work with the government to get acceptance of forms with personal identifying information not required for visa purposes redacted or blacked out as protection against identity theft.

The "combination" method (including both monthly income and Thai bank deposits) will still be accepted for justification of individual retirement visa extensions. For spousal visa extensions, inquire of Thai Immigration authorities or an Immigration lawyer.

Questions and discussion indicated that ANY source of income could be considered, not just pension income. In meetings with Thai Immigration, the U.S. officials have stressed that Americans have many sources of income (many not at regular intervals) to support themselves in retirement -- rental income, investments, withdrawals from trusts, and much more in additional to traditional government pensions like SS and VA. There was one report of someone in Chiang Mai receiving income at irregular intervals, so he printed out all deposits to his U.S. bank account over the course of a year and showed Thai immigration how it was more than 800,000 baht a year and this was accepted.

There was concern from several expat-expat married couples who each have been maintaining individual retirement visas, where one receives less than 65,000 baht and the other more than 65,000 baht, but the total exceeded 130,000 baht. Would it be possible for the wife to obtain a dependent or "family" visa? U.S. officials were unable to answer this question about how Thai immigration will handle dependent visas going forward. Again, speak to a Thai Immigration official or immigration lawyer.

Thai Police Order 777/255: Unofficial translation (available online):

• Retirement visa application requires proof of income of not less than 65,000/month OR
• Thai bank account deposit of baht 800,000 at least 2 months prior to INITIALLY applying for a retirement visa; at least 3 months prior to application for retirement visa renewal OR
• Annual income plus bank account deposit totaling not less than baht 800,000 as of the filing date for retirement visa.

 

I have highlighted the portion of the email that I find most interesting.  It is apparent that the Embassy raised an issue that was non-existent to Thai authorities until the US Embassy made it a problem!  I am flabbergasted to say the least!  As has been noted by many forum members, if there was a problem with filling out the affidavit, the onus was on the affiant to provide accurate information and not for our own embassy to opine, moan, and groan about the 'high number' of affidavits being issued. I find this whole situation to be incredulous - especially since the total number of embassies withdrawing the affidavit remain at just four.

 

I wrote a personal letter to Mr. Tim Scherer some time ago that has gone unanswered.  Despite the fact that the Embassy and Mr. Scherer says 'Embassy officials are working with Thai Immigration officials to familiarize them with financial reporting formats of the Social Security Administration, Veterans Affairs and major firms managing IRAs', there is no assurance that such 'familiarity' will result in the acceptance of these documents when expats from the US go to Thai immigration to extend their visas! 

 

If there is any doubt in your minds who initiated this whole fiasco, the content of this email should put all doubts to rest.  Our own embassy, with no clear reason, other than the sheer number of affidavits being issued in Thailand, has made an issue where none should have existed.  This is not representation.  It is not even benign neglect.  It is willful disregard for your own citizens well being.  

Edited November 26, 2018 by pookiki
grammar

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

30 minutes ago, pookiki said:

However, as part of a global review of US consular operations, it was found that US consular offices in Thailand issue an unusually high number of income affidavits. This was raised in consular dialogue with Thai authorities, who then realized that the notarized affidavit affirms only that the named citizen appeared before a US Consular officer, but does not constitute proof of income, as required by Thai law as detailed in Police Order 777/2551, which governs visa approvals.

 

Stupidity in action here....

 

The imbeciles involved perhaps never considered the fact that the reason the U.S. Embassy and Consulate in Thailand issue so many income affidavits is that over the years the affidavits somehow had become Thai Immigration's coin of the realm for meeting the monthly income financial requirement for marriage and retirement extension. And said proof had to be resubmitted by every applicant each and every year for successive annual extensions.

 

Whereas in OTHER countries that have expat visa type programs that Americans can apply for, those countries may only require proof of pension income ONCE at the outset when qualifying, and/or rely on other original income documents like Social Security or other pension statements and the like. And don't drag the U.S. Embassy's paperwork in the process year after year for each and every visa/extension holder.

 

Yeesh!!!

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK