only the really dim think they can win an argument by cherry-picking single issue stats..........the only poi=nt it proves is how uniformed they personally are.

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

I see, so the answer to my question

is 'Yes.'

No, the answer to your question is the answer I gave you. 

2 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

Thx. I like to learn.

Don't we all.

17 minutes ago, wilcopops said:

only the really dim think they can win an argument by cherry-picking single issue stats..........the only poi=nt it proves is how uniformed they personally are.

The gov makes up figures for their agenda, the best lies are

made with facts, we know what they want us to know.

The only figure you can rely on, is how many pennies you

have in your pocket at the end of the week..and that tells

you the state of the UK economy.

53 minutes ago, Grouse said:

A typical lead acid car battery is good for about 2kWh. A Porsche might need 300kW for, say, 3 hours. So 900kWh? 450 lead acid batteries? Several tonnes? Li-Ion bomb? No, this is where the U.K. Could real get ahead. We're already world leaders in graphene.

 

This why, right now, they look at Maybe 100kW of power for 50km!

 

LONG way to go! 

 

BTW to charge 450 2kWh batteries in say 2 hours would require about a 200A 3P 400V supply. About the same as 6 houses.

 

Maybe errors there but you get the drift.....

The EU could solve the problem of e-cars immediately. Simple to make a standard for the batteries. The batteries are then simply equipped with a click system so that they are compatible with any vehicle. Today's gas stations store the batterie modules and charge them. You only exchange your empty battery for a charged one. If the format and connections were consistent, the range and the loading time problems would be solved. Technically easy to implement. 

Instead of having each manufacturer's batteries firmly installed, they should be interchangeable. With the small batteries Micro- (AAA) Mignon- (AA), Baby- (C) and Mono- (D) goes it well too.

The EU, if they were not so cowardly, should consistently use the power of their own market size. We could set worldwide standards here.

40 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

No, the answer to your question is the answer I gave you. 

 Which is basically what I said!

 

Unless you are now claiming they are and always have been completely unreliable.

 

In which case one has to wonder why you used them to support your argument!

 

 

1 hour ago, wilcopops said:

only the really dim think they can win an argument by cherry-picking single issue stats..........the only poi=nt it proves is how uniformed they personally are.

Those uniforms!

37 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Instead of having each manufacturer's batteries firmly installed, they should be interchangeable. With the small batteries Micro- (AAA) Mignon- (AA), Baby- (C) and Mono- (D) goes it well too.

The EU, if they were not so cowardly, should consistently use the power of their own market size. We could set worldwide standards here.

Can't beat the French cooked Filet Mignon.

49 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

The gov makes up figures for their agenda, the best lies are

made with facts, we know what they want us to know.

The only figure you can rely on, is how many pennies you

have in your pocket at the end of the week..and that tells

you the state of the UK economy.

"the best lies are made with facts". Fantastic.

59 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

The EU could solve the problem of e-cars immediately. Simple to make a standard for the batteries. The batteries are then simply equipped with a click system so that they are compatible with any vehicle. Today's gas stations store the batterie modules and charge them. You only exchange your empty battery for a charged one. If the format and connections were consistent, the range and the loading time problems would be solved. Technically easy to implement. 

Instead of having each manufacturer's batteries firmly installed, they should be interchangeable. With the small batteries Micro- (AAA) Mignon- (AA), Baby- (C) and Mono- (D) goes it well too.

The EU, if they were not so cowardly, should consistently use the power of their own market size. We could set worldwide standards here.

1

what you suggest

 

I sincerely hope will NEVER be realized

what you suggest is sudden death for innovation and development

 

mind you, electrical vehicles is a fairly new thing,

what is needed now is broad scope for innovation and development

of batteries - chargers - engines/motors - feedback systems

 

do NOT put a lid on it with clickclick/anyany/vehiclevehicle

 

give the manufactures ample space for using their brains and innovative power

get out of their way / hair - let them play

 

with that clickclick idea it would be probably be more beneficial in the long term

to focus on diesel engines and improving combustion and the handling of exhaust fumes

 

Edited February 23, 20197 yr by melvinmelvin

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

what you suggest

 

I sincerely hope will NEVER be realized

what you suggest is sudden death for innovation and development

 

mind you, electrical vehicles is a fairly new thing,

what is needed now is broad scope for innovation and development

of batteries - chargers - engines/motors - feedback systems

 

do NOT put a lid on it with clickclick/anyany/vehiclevehicle

 

give the manufactures ample space for using their brains and innovative power

 

with that clickclick idea it would be probably be more beneficial in the long term

to focus on diesel engines and improving combustion and the handling of exhaust fumes

 

I do not think so.

Formula 1 also sets standards and limits. And they are quite innovative.

Just as with the cell phones a standard for the charging cable.

 

However, by giving the size to a battery box and the connection points, The developers can still develop more powerful batteries. The other components of an e car are not at all affected by an innovation restriction. 

1 hour ago, tomacht8 said:

The EU could solve the problem of e-cars immediately. Simple to make a standard for the batteries. The batteries are then simply equipped with a click system so that they are compatible with any vehicle. Today's gas stations store the batterie modules and charge them. You only exchange your empty battery for a charged one. If the format and connections were consistent, the range and the loading time problems would be solved. Technically easy to implement. 

Instead of having each manufacturer's batteries firmly installed, they should be interchangeable. With the small batteries Micro- (AAA) Mignon- (AA), Baby- (C) and Mono- (D) goes it well too.

The EU, if they were not so cowardly, should consistently use the power of their own market size. We could set worldwide standards here.

The Higgs Boson will get you - mass! 

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The Higgs Boson will get you - mass! 

Mrs.Higgs Bosom has got nothing to do with it,

you cant have mass without a priest.

Edited February 23, 20197 yr by talahtnut
addition

1 hour ago, tomacht8 said:

The EU could solve the problem of e-cars immediately. Simple to make a standard for the batteries. The batteries are then simply equipped with a click system so that they are compatible with any vehicle. Today's gas stations store the batterie modules and charge them. You only exchange your empty battery for a charged one. If the format and connections were consistent, the range and the loading time problems would be solved. Technically easy to implement. 

Instead of having each manufacturer's batteries firmly installed, they should be interchangeable. With the small batteries Micro- (AAA) Mignon- (AA), Baby- (C) and Mono- (D) goes it well too.

The EU, if they were not so cowardly, should consistently use the power of their own market size. We could set worldwide standards here.

The problem that I can see with this is that the batteries are about half the cost of the car, so if you change your knackered  batteries for a replacement set you will make on the deal but the poor bugger who gets your old batteries will lose out.

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The Higgs Boson will get you - mass

François Englert and Peter Higgs for the theoretical development of the Higgs mechanism got the Nobel Prize for Physics 2013

 

I find the idea of a standardized underfloor battery box interesting.

1.50 m long x 0.80 m wide x 0.25 m high. or what size ever.

I drive to the gas station when the battery is almost empty. I drive over an exchange shaft, press a Button and the empty battery box is removed. 1 minute later, the full battery box is nicked in and i can continue my e ride for some other 100 kms.

 

The market size of the EU would make it possible to introduce such a system EU wide.

 

 

9 minutes ago, billd766 said:

The problem that I can see with this is that the batteries are about half the cost of the car, so if you change your knackered  batteries for a replacement set you will make on the deal but the poor bugger who gets your old batteries will lose out.

Maybe u not have to buy the batteries, you rent them from the gas stations.

 

By mass-producing from a standard battery, the cost per battery will be going down enormous.

Edited February 23, 20197 yr by tomacht8

26 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

I do not think so.

Formula 1 also sets standards and limits. And they are quite innovative.

Just as with the cell phones a standard for the charging cable.

 

However, by giving the size to a battery box and the connection points, The developers can still develop more powerful batteries. The other components of an e car are not at all affected by an innovation restriction. 

well I can just repeat that I disagree violently with this

 

formula 1 and engine development ain't of any interest any more, the lid is there,

rubber quality and aerodynamics develops

 

cell phones do not have common chargers/cables, alas,

but cell phones came on the market in the late 1980s, almost 30 years ago

 

battery cars - new thing

 

you clearly think you have the foresight to see how batteries will develop  physically

over the next 5 to x years

 

with your click click any any system

how do you fit in batteries formed like a boomerang?

how do you fit in batteries formed like a 2 meter long flexible tube?

how do you fit in batteries formed like a 3 inch thick disc with diameter 15 inch?

how do you fit in a 3 meter long thin cone with the base in the engine compartment and

the tip in the luggage compartment?

 

it is way way too early to strangle producers of VA-cars, leave them alone and let them play

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

well I can just repeat that I disagree violently with this

 

formula 1 and engine development ain't of any interest any more, the lid is there,

rubber quality and aerodynamics develops

 

cell phones do not have common chargers/cables, alas,

but cell phones came on the market in the late 1980s, almost 30 years ago

 

battery cars - new thing

 

you clearly think you have the foresight to see how batteries will develop  physically

over the next 5 to x years

 

with your click click any any system

how do you fit in batteries formed like a boomerang?

how do you fit in batteries formed like a 2 meter long flexible tube?

how do you fit in batteries formed like a 3 inch thick disc with diameter 15 inch?

how do you fit in a 3 meter long thin cone with the base in the engine compartment and

the tip in the luggage compartment?

 

it is way way too early to strangle producers of VA-cars, leave them alone and let them play

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry that is wrong.

 

1. formula 1 is still one of the major sources of innovation for the automotive industry

 

2. EU consumers will be able to opt for standard mobile phone charger from 2017. The European Parliament voted in Strasbourg on a corresponding bill from. Manufacturers such as Nokia, Sony, Apple, Motorola and Samsung have within three years to bring a unified plug for mobile phones, tablets and smartphones on the market.

 

3 it is just an idea.

You do not have to buy it.

Have a nice evening.

22 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

François Englert and Peter Higgs for the theoretical development of the Higgs mechanism got the Nobel Prize for Physics 2013

 

I find the idea of a standardized underfloor battery box interesting.

1.50 m long x 0.80 m wide x 0.25 m high. or what size ever.

I drive to the gas station when the battery is almost empty. I drive over an exchange shaft, press a Button and the empty battery box is removed. 1 minute later, the full battery box is nicked in and i can continue my e ride for some other 100 kms.

 

The market size of the EU would make it possible to introduce such a system EU wide.

 

 

Yes but consider the mass and the energy required to accelerate it? The whole idea is energy efficiency?

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

well I can just repeat that I disagree violently with this

 

formula 1 and engine development ain't of any interest any more, the lid is there,

rubber quality and aerodynamics develops

 

cell phones do not have common chargers/cables, alas,

but cell phones came on the market in the late 1980s, almost 30 years ago

 

battery cars - new thing

 

you clearly think you have the foresight to see how batteries will develop  physically

over the next 5 to x years

 

with your click click any any system

how do you fit in batteries formed like a boomerang?

how do you fit in batteries formed like a 2 meter long flexible tube?

how do you fit in batteries formed like a 3 inch thick disc with diameter 15 inch?

how do you fit in a 3 meter long thin cone with the base in the engine compartment and

the tip in the luggage compartment?

 

it is way way too early to strangle producers of VA-cars, leave them alone and let them play

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Without any standard battery sizes it probably won't work that well and IF the batteries are half the price of the car how many of each type of battery size/type of battery would each charging station have to keep in stock. Think about the investment costs of perhaps 5 batteries of the most popular types may cost perhaps £30,000 and a single Porsche battery may cost that on it own.

 

The investment in batteries alone would be horrendous and you can be sure that the customer will foot the bill one way or another.

 

What would you charge a customer for a battery swap for a common type?

 

£1,000, £2,000 or more for each exchange set? How about an exchange Porsche set for £10,000? Would that be a fair price?

 

Remember that there may be up to 1 or 2,000 or more stations that will all need these batteries.

 

How would you feel if you pulled into a station and they said "sorry mate,  I just sold the last one but if you want to wait until tomorrow morning we might have one set ready if they are not all crap batteries"

 

They may also have quick chargers that you can plug into but you can be sure that it won't be cheap.

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Yes but consider the mass and the energy required to accelerate it? The whole idea is energy efficiency?

I think that the weight of a built-in battery will be about the same as the weight of a quick-change battery.

 

I think we will not be able to solve the problem of the car makers this evening here.

 

25 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Maybe u not have to buy the batteries, you rent them from the gas stations.

 

By mass-producing from a standard battery, the cost per battery will be going down enormous.

I disagree with you.

 

For your system to work there will need to be thousands of battery stations across the country and they will all need a certain amount of batteries to operate with.

 

The investment costs will be high as they will have to buy new batteries to start with. What happens when a guy turns up with a totally knackered set of batteries and you, as the swap station change his knackered batteries for a brand new shiny set?

 

You will lose most of the investment in the batteries at one foul swoop. How much would you charge the guy for that swap?

1 minute ago, tomacht8 said:

I think that the weight of a built-in battery will be about the same as the weight of a quick-change battery.

 

I think we will not be able to solve the problem of the car makers this evening here.

 

I agree with both points

 

However, existing battery materials science means that we are a very long way from replacing internal combustion engines. Fuel cells might work. But having two thirds the mass of a car taken up by batteries looks insurmountable right now.

5 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I disagree with you.

 

For your system to work there will need to be thousands of battery stations across the country and they will all need a certain amount of batteries to operate with.

 

The investment costs will be high as they will have to buy new batteries to start with. What happens when a guy turns up with a totally knackered set of batteries and you, as the swap station change his knackered batteries for a brand new shiny set?

 

You will lose most of the investment in the batteries at one foul swoop. How much would you charge the guy for that swap?

In fact, there are still a lot of unresolved problems. A friend of mine works at the Shell Research Laboratory in Hamburg. There they deal with such future issues.

But I like the idea. Let's see what solutions will prevail in the market.

17 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

I think that the weight of a built-in battery will be about the same as the weight of a quick-change battery.

 

I think we will not be able to solve the problem of the car makers this evening here.

 

I agree with both points

 

However, existing battery materials science means that we are a very long way from replacing internal combustion engines. Fuel cells might work. But having two thirds the mass of a car taken up by batteries looks insurmountable right now.

 

Specific energy (capacity)

Compared to fossil fuel, the energy storage capability of the battery is less impressive. The energy by mass of gasoline is over 12,000Wh/kg. In contrast, a modern Li-ion battery only carries about 200Wh/kg; however the battery has the advantage of delivering energy more effectively than a thermal engine. (See BU-1007: Net Calorific Value.)

 

Lets take a typical 100kW car running for one hour. That's about 8.5kg of fuel at 25% efficiency = 34kg. Battery equivalent is 500kg of batteries! Does not compute....

One useful piece of empirical data from student days...

 

Female students invariable had U2 batteries on the radiator in their college rooms. Smaller girls had U11 batteries. Is there a PhD in this for me?

Edited February 23, 20197 yr by Grouse

19 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I agree with both points

 

However, existing battery materials science means that we are a very long way from replacing internal combustion engines. Fuel cells might work. But having two thirds the mass of a car taken up by batteries looks insurmountable right now.

 

Specific energy (capacity)

Compared to fossil fuel, the energy storage capability of the battery is less impressive. The energy by mass of gasoline is over 12,000Wh/kg. In contrast, a modern Li-ion battery only carries about 200Wh/kg; however the battery has the advantage of delivering energy more effectively than a thermal engine. (See BU-1007: Net Calorific Value.)

 

Lets take a typical 100kW car running for one hour. That's about 8.5kg of fuel at 25% efficiency = 34kg. Battery equivalent is 500kg of batteries! Does not compute....

This are the weights from the batteries

BMW i3

60 Ah 233 Kg
94 Ah 256 Kg
120 Ah 274 Kg

BMW indicates the maximum range with 260km with the largest battery.

Battery charge time is 45 minutes for 80% power. 

As a city car to the way to / from work already very good. However, you should have your own garage for loading.

 

The 120 i3 is indicated with 1345 kilos total weight.

Battery weight is then 20,37% of the total vehicle weight

Edited February 23, 20197 yr by tomacht8

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I agree with both points

 

However, existing battery materials science means that we are a very long way from replacing internal combustion engines. Fuel cells might work. But having two thirds the mass of a car taken up by batteries looks insurmountable right now.

 

Specific energy (capacity)

Compared to fossil fuel, the energy storage capability of the battery is less impressive. The energy by mass of gasoline is over 12,000Wh/kg. In contrast, a modern Li-ion battery only carries about 200Wh/kg; however the battery has the advantage of delivering energy more effectively than a thermal engine. (See BU-1007: Net Calorific Value.)

 

Lets take a typical 100kW car running for one hour. That's about 8.5kg of fuel at 25% efficiency = 34kg. Battery equivalent is 500kg of batteries! Does not compute....

 Fuel cells and micro cars are the future.

My daily driver in the UK is 601 cc, to be fitted with a

home made Pogue carburettor when get it right.

 

17 minutes ago, Grouse said:

One useful piece of empirical data from student days...

 

Female students invariable had U2 batteries on the radiator in their college rooms. Smaller girls had U11 batteries. Is there a PhD in this for me?

Any photos of the girls available? Maybe the question could then be answered.

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 Which is basically what I said!

 

Unless you are now claiming they are and always have been completely unreliable.

 

In which case one has to wonder why you used them to support your argument!

 

 

I could easily have sourced material from numerous pro-Brexit sources. But my discovery of two lefty, progressive rags had banged the Brexit drum so enthusiastically following the shock referendum result was simply too mouth-watering not to share. 

 

Of course, they have since seen the folly of their ways and shuffled back shamefaced into the Remainer ranks. But their brief flirtation with edotorial objectivity was fun while it lasted.

 

Just another indication of the unreliability of the mass media, from which - let's face it - we all cherry-pick sometimes to support our arguments.

 

If interpreting this as a "Yes" to your question will help you sleep tonight, then be my guest!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 20197 yr by Krataiboy