IMO, the UK did not approach Brexit in the best way.

 

We should have triggered a50, immediately and then spent the next 2 years ironing out the details. Maybe the scenario that we have, as of now, was planned by May right from the start. After all, she never wanted to leave in the first place. This would explain her leave ministers departing and her nebulosity.

8 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Both the 1st referendum and the 2nd referendum were advisory and both Goverments at the time stated it was the people choice and they would respect the outcome and implement the people decision end of 

And neither were binding on parliament. I'm glad you understand that. Please explain to the other leavers. Parliament IS sovereign 

7 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

The poll you cited is ancient history. Here's a link to the results of a rather more recent poll:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/20/polls-stay-eu-yougov-brexit-peoples-vote

Funny isnt it the poll was comissioned and paid for by the People’s Vote campaign I yet to see any poll that publishes results that the group that commisioned and paid for doesn't agree with

Don’t listen to the People’s Vote polling – most Labour members still back Jeremy Corbyn on Brexit
While they may themselves be Europhiles who would like very much to remain in the EU, party members are also capable of understanding that pursuing this course would be a huge risk for the party in electoral terms

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-labour-members-peoples-vote-second-referendum-remain-eu-a8709151.html

 

More than half of Tories prefer 'no-deal' Brexit - poll

https://news.sky.com/story/more-than-half-of-tories-prefer-no-deal-brexit-poll-11598348

7 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

IMO, the UK did not approach Brexit in the best way.

 

We should have triggered a50, immediately and then spent the next 2 years ironing out the details. Maybe the scenario that we have, as of now, was planned by May right from the start. After all, she never wanted to leave in the first place. This would explain her leave ministers departing and her nebulosity.

Why would triggering it immediately have made a difference? Whether immediately or 8 months later the Brexiter argument was that the EU intransigence would collapse once it realized that the UK was serious about Brexit. How is that working out?

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

And neither were binding on parliament. I'm glad you understand that. Please explain to the other leavers. Parliament IS sovereign 

Its sovereign so as long as it has the respect of the its voters as History has shown us in the past

You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!

 

A few honest men are better than numbers

The State, in choosing men to serve it, takes no notice of their opinions; if they be willing faithfully to serve it – that satisfies. I advised you formerly to bear with men of different minds from yourself:

 

3 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Why would triggering it immediately have made a difference? Whether immediately or 8 months later the Brexiter argument was that the EU intransigence would collapse once it realized that the UK was serious about Brexit. How is that working out?

Because it would have shown intent. And we would have, as of now, been looking forward to a prosperous future.

16 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

IMO, the UK did not approach Brexit in the best way.

 

We should have triggered a50, immediately and then spent the next 2 years ironing out the details. Maybe the scenario that we have, as of now, was planned by May right from the start. After all, she never wanted to leave in the first place. This would explain her leave ministers departing and her nebulosity.

when, today, looking at the outcome of the a50 talks I agree with you,

many things would be smoother if a50 was triggered day after the referendum

 

however,

the thinking at the time was that the UK would negotiate trade relations with EU,

in that respect, it was wise to delay a50 and plan for negotiations.

reality turned out to be very different - no result re future trade relations for UK, brilliant backstop for the NIs hated by DUP,

pretty much zilch

 

so a50 triggered day after referendum would probably have been better

 

8 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Because it would have shown intent. And we would have, as of now, been looking forward to a prosperous future.

So the substance of your complaint is that the advent of this golden prosperous future has been delayed by 8 months?

Well this debate is totally pointless no one here is going to change their opinions, I doubt any leavers have changed their opinions after 2 years of listening to remoaners tantrums and patronising insults my beliefs are more entrenched than ever. I truly think the British working class will be better off outside of the EU, and couldn't really give a fig about anyone else, as it's been proven no one's going to look after British worker nor European workers other than themselves. Have a good New Year leavers, and to the remoaners pffft I'd unplug your life support to charge my phone. 

I note Cromwell died 360 years ago; we have come full circle!

 

Never a fan of puritans my family have always been royalists.

3 minutes ago, Chartist said:

Well this debate is totally pointless no one here is going to change their opinions, I doubt any leavers have changed their opinions after 2 years of listening to remoaners tantrums and patronising insults my beliefs are more entrenched than ever. I truly think the British working class will be better off outside of the EU, and couldn't really give a fig about anyone else, as it's been proven no one's going to look after British worker nor European workers other than themselves. Have a good New Year leavers, and to the remoaners pffft I'd unplug your life support to charge my phone. 

We invented your phone...

 

You trust CONs to take care of you? ????????????????????

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

 

Full of common sense. Therefore not easily understood by the remoaners, who prefer a negative stance.

Edited January 5, 20197 yr by nontabury

24 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

So the substance of your complaint is that the advent of this golden prosperous future has been delayed by 8 months?

No!

 

If a50 had been triggered immediately. we would have been on the front foot from the start.

Except the politicians would be saying "OK, you said that you wanted to leave, we can leave with this deal, no deal or, if you want, change our minds and not leave at all."

And that makes exactly what difference to the fact there was a promise made by the PM on the eve of the 2016 vote, to the nation, that the decision made to remain or leave would be final?

If you're ok for that promise to now be ignored or forgotten about, who's to say you (and the politicians) won't do the same thing if the result of another referendum doesn't go your way?




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6 minutes ago, Chartist said:

Well this debate is totally pointless no one here is going to change their opinions, I doubt any leavers have changed their opinions after 2 years of listening to remoaners tantrums and patronising insults my beliefs are more entrenched than ever. I truly think the British working class will be better off outside of the EU, and couldn't really give a fig about anyone else, as it's been proven no one's going to look after British worker nor European workers other than themselves. Have a good New Year leavers, and to the remoaners pffft I'd unplug your life support to charge my phone. 

I probably hope you are right,

 

but I really think UK - working class/blue collars/guys on the floor - are going to lose big time when UK exits EU,

if UK will exit, that is still open.

 

the ultra conservative politicians in UK are not sympathetic to those with blue collars,

Labour is not particularly blue collar friendly either - unless the game is rhetorics

 

 

20 minutes ago, Chartist said:

I truly think the British working class will be better off outside of the EU

That's a statement that is beyond my understanding. How can a Brexiteed UK, as a global hub of free trade agreements worldwide, improve the condition of the working class? Can you explain it?

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

 

Obviously, being part of the EU does not seem to hinder the dynamism of the British economy! ????

Do you not understand what a question mark means? (There's another one!)
 
More likely, dodging the question yet again; a typical and oft used Brexiteer tactic when faced with the difficult questions you don't have an answer for!

"Are you incensed because, like many Brexiteers, you want to keep all the advantages of EU membership only to find that, unsurprisingly, the EU have said that we can't leave the club and expect to retain the advantages of membership?"

I understand question marks thanks. Please explain how the question mark at the end of your sentence above somehow magically means that you weren't speaking on behalf of "many leavers"?

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1 hour ago, Grouse said:

And neither were binding on parliament. I'm glad you understand that. Please explain to the other leavers. Parliament IS sovereign 

 

But even you understand that parliament do/will act on what the people vote.

 

It's called democracy.

 

It's called honour and moral obligation,

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

Debate is no longer possible as all too often the poster gets it instead of the content of the post. Humour and banter are perfectly acceptable but only if both sides apply them fairly. This is like turning up at a veggie convention dressed as a master of foxhounds!

 

 

I agree.

 

You can't debate a response to a post that says:-

 

Yet more Brexiteer arrogance!

 

My point was that it is even more distasteful when the post is from a previously respected poster.

19 minutes ago, LucysDad said:

 

But even you understand that parliament do/will act on what the people vote.

 

It's called democracy.

 

It's called honour and moral obligation,

there is fine little honour and moral in politics . . . . .

 

26 minutes ago, candide said:

That's a statement that is beyond my understanding. How can a Brexiteed UK, as a global hub of free trade agreements worldwide, improve the condition of the working class? Can you explain it?

 

37 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

I probably hope you are right,

 

but I really think UK - working class/blue collars/guys on the floor - are going to lose big time when UK exits EU,

if UK will exit, that is still open.

 

the ultra conservative politicians in UK are not sympathetic to those with blue collars,

Labour is not particularly blue collar friendly either - unless the game is rhetorics

 

 

It will bring us a step closer to the revolution, here and in Europe, the next war and the rise of the proletariat - it is the next step in the Marxist struggle, perhaps a little late, and perhaps as discredited as it is out of date, but nevertheless, weshallprevail 

1 hour ago, owl sees all said:

No!

 

If a50 had been triggered immediately. we would have been on the front foot from the start.

 I doubt that, I think that at best you would have been on equal footing with the EU. Now the EU had a headstart because the UK didn’t prepare anything in the 9 months between the referendum and invoking Article 50, while the EU used it to look into it from all possible angles and to prepare in detail. Still have that very illustrative picture in mind showing Davis arriving literally empty-handed at the first negotiating meeting in Brussels. 

I find the whole brexit sage hugely entertaining. A classic example of the stupidity of people. Being told lies and probably partially fueled by hatred or angst against foreigners a small majority voted to leave the EU. And now there is anger about the deal that May secured in Brussels.

 

Well news just in, that deal will NEVER be any better of course. One of the prominent advocates of the brexit, and his promise that Britain would keep access to the European internal market was of course a pipe dream, the minute he said that, was the minute sane people would have already known he was lying through his teeth. 

 

The most ironic thing is, that the number of immigrants will probably see a sharp decrease, but not because of the infuence of the EU, but because Britain will become much less attractive to immigrants. Carry on folks ????

 

 

44 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

...

The most ironic thing is, that the number of immigrants will probably see a sharp decrease, but not because of the infuence of the EU, but because Britain will become much less attractive to immigrants. Carry on folks ????

 

 

We'll need a lot of Iraqis and Bangladeshis to make up for all the Poles that we'll lose.

Those of you with an attention span of more than 5 minutes may find this of interest:

 

5 hours ago, nontabury said:

That the people’s vote is sovereign. It’s called Democracy, the alternative is :- 

It doesn't really matter what you believe to be sovereign, the UK is a parliamentary democracy and not a people's democratic republic.

5 hours ago, nontabury said:

That the people’s vote is sovereign. It’s called Democracy, the alternative is :- 

My understanding is that the Queen is our Sovereign, and she follows, for the most part, the direction of her prime minister and parliament.  Theresa May has done a great job of allowing us to see sense since the referendum, and I hope that we do not need to rely on the Queen to save us from our stupidity.  Given that it is a matter of impending impoverishment and decline, rather than war and the end of the Kingdom, I doubt she will, in any case.  Thank goodness we have a responsible prime minister of the integrity, fortitude and humility of Theresa May.

2 hours ago, nontabury said:

Full of common sense. Therefore not easily understood by the remoaners, who prefer a negative stance.

That's great that he can export so much under the EU trade deals.  How many of those countries are negotiating separate deals with the UK in preparation for Brexitageddon?

I find the whole brexit sage hugely entertaining. A classic example of the stupidity of people. Being told lies and probably partially fueled by hatred or angst against foreigners a small majority voted to leave the EU. And now there is anger about the deal that May secured in Brussels.
 
Well news just in, that deal will NEVER be any better of course. One of the prominent advocates of the brexit, and his promise that Britain would keep access to the European internal market was of course a pipe dream, the minute he said that, was the minute sane people would have already known he was lying through his teeth. 
 
The most ironic thing is, that the number of immigrants will probably see a sharp decrease, but not because of the infuence of the EU, but because Britain will become much less attractive to immigrants. Carry on folks [emoji846]
 
 

"Being told lies and probably partially fueled by hatred or angst against foreigners a small majority voted to leave the EU."

Firstly, let's not pretend lies were told by only one side.

Secondly, what I think actually fuelled a lot of people to vote leave wasn't "a hatred or angst against foreigners" (I actually think British people as a whole are not inclined to bigotry or racism), but rather people being told that they were racist or bigots simply for expressing reservations or doubts about the sustainability of having an open door policy for immigration.

The anger and frustration felt for many has been towards the politicians who have been responsible for immigration policy and towards those who have shut down the debate on immigration and insulted them in the process.

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