2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

We've already had a referendum on whether to "stay as we are" (i.e. remain or leave), and the result was to leave.

A manipulated referendum that should be declared void. 

6 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

A manipulated referendum that should be declared void. 

You keep saying that long enough, you might actually start to believe it.

 

But I do find it kind of flattering that you think so much about us Brits that you are single handedly campagning for us to remain, but don't get too dissapointed when we leave will you.

Edited December 11, 20187 yr by vogie

Just now, welovesundaysatspace said:

A manipulated referendum that should be declared void. 

Yes, the vote was manipulated towards remain via the endless scare stories from politicians and 'experts' - and yet leave still won!

1 hour ago, John1012 said:

So the democratic vote from the referendum is to be ignored? 

 

It does not need to be ignored but two years down the line, and after a lot more information being available, it is a valid question if a vote that was so close is still in line with the public's desires on the whole?

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

You keep saying that long enough, you might actually start to believe it.

 

But I do find it kind of flattering that you think so much about us Brits that you are single handedly campagning for us to remain, but don't get too dissapointed when we leave will you.

I would not be disappointed. Please leave, without any deal and enjoy the ride.

 

And when the divisions are healed (but not before) you are welcome to rejoin the EU.

Edited December 11, 20187 yr by whatsupdoc

1 hour ago, vogie said:

There is no shift in public opinion for a second referendum.

In that case, you won't have anything to worry about when it's put back to them. 

2 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

I would not be disappointed. Please leave, without any deal and enjoy the ride.

 

And when the divisions are healed (but not before) you are welcome to rejoin the EU.

Please remember if we leave without a deal you will be in the same boat.

 

And remember there may be no EU to rejoin the way it is going in Europe at the moment, but thank you for your kind words anyway.

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Yes, the vote was manipulated towards remain via the endless scare stories from politicians and 'experts' - and yet leave still won!

Have you ever read The Mail, The Sun, The Express, The Telegraph? The public trust newspapers way more than they do the spin of politicians.

2 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

In that case, you won't have anything to worry about when it's put back to them. 

Its not up to me who has a referendum or not. I can only repeat there is evidence that the public don't want one, I think it's a bit of a remainer thing to be honest.

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

Its not up to me who has a referendum or not. I can only repeat there is evidence that the public don't want one, I think it's a bit of a remainer thing to be honest.

I'm seeing a huge increase in people calling for one compared to previously. Members of the public, media commentators and politicians across the board. 

Edited December 11, 20187 yr by lamyai3

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

And remember there may be no EU to rejoin the way it is going in Europe at the moment, but thank you for your kind words anyway.

To use your own words:

You keep saying that long enough, you might actually start to believe it.

2 minutes ago, MRToMRT said:

It does not need to be ignored but two years down the line, and after a lot more information being available, it is a valid question if a vote that was so close is still in line with the public's desires on the whole?

Precisely what genuine information (that we didn't have previously) is known?

 

Presumably you mean that we now know the eu has no intention of negotiating as it knows uk politicians support remain?  But the electorate already knew that the vast majority of politicians and the 'establishment' supported remain before the referendum - and yet the leave vote still won!

 

May has agreed with every stance taken by the eu, and come up with a deal that is leave in name only.  Hence my opinion that another referendum is a very good idea, based on the 2 options mentioned in my previous post.

 

20 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"A vote on the deal isn't the same as a second referendum. It seems quite sensible to me. Two options: the deal proposed, or stay as we are.  Knocks the thing on the head all ways up.

But I certainly wouldn't be leading with May's deal."

 

I agree, except the options should be: the deal proposed, or leave without a deal.

 

We've already had a referendum on whether to "stay as we are" (i.e. remain or leave), and the result was to leave.  Edit - Therefore I now think that the question has to be whether the electorate prefers to accept May's 'deal' as leaving, or whether they think it is nothing of the sort and would prefer to genuinely leave.

 

I'm not a Brit, so no horse in the race, but if you go through my post history you will find that I posted when May became PM that she would do everyting to remain.

 

Just look at the news from the first weeks after she became PM, which her priorities and appointments were, and it will be clear that a brexit was not on the books for her.

Just now, lamyai3 said:

Have you ever read The Mail, The Sun, The Express, The Telegraph? The public trust newspapers way more than they do the spin of politicians.

I've only read the first two when the newspapers were left on a train seat and I was desperate for something, anything (!) to read....

 

I was once offered an Express by a stewardess when boarding a plane and politely declined saying something along the lines of 'rubbish newspaper, can't the airline provide something better?' - The stewardess agreed ????.

 

When I lived in the uk I used to read the Guardian mostly, the Independent from time to time - admittedly because they mostly agreed with my views..... ☹️

 

After moving to Thailand, I read (via the internet) the Guardian/Independent and Telegraph - but mostly gave up on reading their brexit articles shortly before the brexit referendum, as they were all so obviously biased.....

16 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

I'm seeing a huge increase in people calling for one compared to previously. Members of the public, media commentators and politicians across the board. 

I have provided evidence to the contary, can you provide any evidence to substanciate your claim.

17 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

To use your own words:

You keep saying that long enough, you might actually start to believe it.

First time I've said it. ????. Not big on mantras I afraid.

9 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

I'm not a Brit, so no horse in the race, but if you go through my post history you will find that I posted when May became PM that she would do everyting to remain.

 

Just look at the news from the first weeks after she became PM, which her priorities and appointments were, and it will be clear that a brexit was not on the books for her.

Jan, we cannot go through the history, ThaiVisa has deleted it all. But we believe you anyway.????

Campbell comes across as an RT bot.

Remain or leave ....the vote was taken.

 

A bigger issue is the current UN Migration paper that May wants to sign up to. This will finish off the UK with no return. End of.....

Ever since the negotiations started, May, the government, and parliament knew by leaving the single market - IMO, the biggest disaster ever - the most important issue that needed to be resolved first of all was preventing a hard border in Ireland.  That still hasn't happened after more than two years of avoiding the crunch. 

 

Unless May manages to get a fudged response by the EU to the proposed backstop, the meaningful vote by parliament would see her deal rejected, and then it's game on what happens next. That is, apart from a no-deal scenario because parliament would never sanction the ruinous economic consequences of that route.  

 

IMO, the only 'deal' that makes any sense if the UK wants to leave the EU, is to remain in the single market, which would resolve the Irish issue, and accept the EU's four freedoms, similar to Norway. 

 

6 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Only 20% Back Second Referendum if Deal Voted Down

Even the great Peoplevote spin doctor Alastair Campbell tells of remain voters now want leave

Brexit bust-up, things get heated in the studio - BBC Newsnight

 

An interesting video, thank you for posting it.

 

I particularly liked the lady from The Times saying that she originally supported another referendum, until she discovered that the vote was likely to be the same, and that no deal might very well be supported by the electorate ????!

 

Other than that, she and the other guy (not Campbell....) made some good points.

7 minutes ago, BKKMG said:

Remain or leave ....the vote was taken.

 

 

 

And now it's all gone wrong.

 

And now the finger is hovering above the reset button.

 

You and the others can keep on squawking about the "vote" for the rest of your lives.

 

Time moves on.

 

re·al·po·li·tik

/rāˈälpōliˌtēk/

noun

noun: realpolitik

1. a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.

 

 

2 hours ago, vogie said:

There is no shift in public opinion for a second referendum.

 

I truly believe there have been many changes and in all directions. This is the biggest decision since WW2. Surely it would be wise to have the public ratify whatever parliament decides.

8 minutes ago, Enoon said:

 

And now it's all gone wrong.

 

And now the finger is hovering above the reset button.

 

You and the others can keep on squawking about the "vote" for the rest of your lives.

 

Time moves on.

 

re·al·po·li·tik

/rāˈälpōliˌtēk/

noun

noun: realpolitik

1. a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.

 

"

Time hasn't "moved on" , we still have democracy where people vote and "realpolitik" is just a new word for people who lost the vote

11 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Ever since the negotiations started, May, the government, and parliament knew by leaving the single market - IMO, the biggest disaster ever - the most important issue that needed to be resolved first of all was preventing a hard border in Ireland.  That still hasn't happened after more than two years of avoiding the crunch. 

 

Unless May manages to get a fudged response by the EU to the proposed backstop, the meaningful vote by parliament would see her deal rejected, and then it's game on what happens next. That is, apart from a no-deal scenario because parliament would never sanction the ruinous economic consequences of that route.  

 

IMO, the only 'deal' that makes any sense if the UK wants to leave the EU, is to remain in the single market, which would resolve the Irish issue, and accept the EU's four freedoms, similar to Norway. 

 

"IMO, the only 'deal' that makes any sense if the UK wants to leave the EU, is to remain in the single market, which would resolve the Irish issue, and accept the EU's four freedoms, similar to Norway. "


But, as far as the Brexiteers are concerned, that's not a real Brexit. It's a Brexit in name only.  ????

14 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Ever since the negotiations started, May, the government, and parliament knew by leaving the single market - IMO, the biggest disaster ever - the most important issue that needed to be resolved first of all was preventing a hard border in Ireland.  That still hasn't happened after more than two years of avoiding the crunch. 

 

Unless May manages to get a fudged response by the EU to the proposed backstop, the meaningful vote by parliament would see her deal rejected, and then it's game on what happens next. That is, apart from a no-deal scenario because parliament would never sanction the ruinous economic consequences of that route.  

 

IMO, the only 'deal' that makes any sense if the UK wants to leave the EU, is to remain in the single market, which would resolve the Irish issue, and accept the EU's four freedoms, similar to Norway. 

 

You would need customs union to fix Irish border issue

6 minutes ago, Enoon said:

 

And now it's all gone wrong.

 

And now the finger is hovering above the reset button.

 

You and the others can keep on squawking about the "vote" for the rest of your lives.

 

Time moves on.

 

re·al·po·li·tik

/rāˈälpōliˌtēk/

noun

noun: realpolitik

1. a system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations.

 

 

Agree. In a democratic society , the population are able to vote in any election year, and they could certainly vote again over whether May's deal is acceptable or not. Might as well ruin the UK once and for all whatever the outcome.

 

 

Here's an idea.

 

Secret ballot by parliament followed by ratification by referendum

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You would need customs union to fix Irish border issue

Norway manages without one, albeit with difficulties, and I agree remaining in the current EU customs Union is by far the best route to resolve the  Irish issue.

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Here's an idea.

 

Secret ballot by parliament followed by ratification by referendum

Too time consuming and open to sculduggery ☺