7 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

"IMO, the only 'deal' that makes any sense if the UK wants to leave the EU, is to remain in the single market, which would resolve the Irish issue, and accept the EU's four freedoms, similar to Norway. "


But, as far as the Brexiteers are concerned, that's not a real Brexit. It's a Brexit in name only.  ????

However, it meets the referendum ballot options which were to remain or leave the EU. Nothing else for the populace to vote for. No options on the single market, or the customs Union, or the ECJ involvement. But then May managed to get all these extra 'leaving terms' through parliament owing to Brexiteers pressures.

 

And now they're complaining when May has made a deal that meets the people's vote. IMO, the whole Brexit scenarion is the largest folly ever undertaken by any UK government.

 

its been a farce from the beginning 

now we have May,  Gove ect backing down after saying its a go

people are losing faith in May lack of leadership  time she went 

time will tell

21 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I truly believe there have been many changes and in all directions. This is the biggest decision since WW2. Surely it would be wise to have the public ratify whatever parliament decides.

I agree - as long as the choice is accept May's eventual (.....) deal, or reject the deal and genuinely leave.

18 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Here's an idea.

 

Secret ballot by parliament followed by ratification by referendum

Why should it be secret?

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree - as long as the choice is accept May's eventual (.....) deal, or reject the deal and genuinely leave.

Might need a general election for the latter to happen - Corbyn to become PM and then some 'brexit sanity' could return. DD, you need to come to terms that a no-deal scenario would never be sanctioned by parliament as it would be an economic catastrophe for the UK - according to every financial article published to date. 

 

That Brexit supporters choose to ignore the actuality is sad.  

8 minutes ago, shackleton said:

its been a farce from the beginning 

now we have May,  Gove ect backing down after saying its a go

people are losing faith in May lack of leadership  time she went 

time will tell

Quite, I saw the statement in the house and there was little evidence of backing down, only regrouping for the next move.

Kenneth Clarke stood up and said something like how can we deal with other countries if we cannot deal with ourselves, PM declined to comment.

Democracy in name only.

11 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Why should it be secret?

Protect the minions from those above.

46 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Here's an idea.

 

Secret ballot by parliament followed by ratification by referendum

No ballot, where you are voting on issues germane to the public should ever be secret.  The whole idea would lead to a parliament without answerability to the public of how or why they vote on individual issues.  It would be the antithesis of what parliament is suppose to be.

3 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Might need a general election for the latter to happen - Corbyn to become PM and then some 'brexit sanity' could return. DD, you need to come to terms that a no-deal scenario would never be sanctioned by parliament as it would be an economic catastrophe for the UK - according to every financial article published to date. 

 

That Brexit supporters choose to ignore the actuality is sad.  

I gave up believing in 'experts' after the run-up to the referendum that was based entirely on 'fear' tactics....

 

They have opinions and forecasts that are in reality, just guesses and biased at that!

 

Those extremely vocal and publicised opinions and forecasts about the immediate result in the event of a leave vote - were very incorrect, as has been admitted by a few of them.....

 

I agree that parliament has no appetite for enforcing a genuine leave - but not because it would be an economic catastrophe - rather because it would reduce their chances of getting extremely well-paid positions within the eu, or as directorships in big business.

 

They are only concerned with their own power and wealth IMO ☹️.

12 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Protect the minions from those above.

I assume you mean ensure the minions never know the way their elected representatives voted?

20 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I assume you mean ensure the minions never know the way their elected representatives voted?

Some posts need to be given the contempt they deserve.

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Here's an idea.

 

Secret ballot by parliament followed by ratification by referendum

I thought you were againgst referendums, which cap have you got on today.

3 hours ago, vogie said:

You keep saying that long enough, you might actually start to believe it.

Everyone saw your red bus and all the other lies. 

 

Quote

But I do find it kind of flattering that you think so much about us Brits that you are single handedly campagning for us to remain, but don't get too dissapointed when we leave will you.

Where exactly was I “campaigning for [the UK] to remain”? 

 

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Yes, the vote was manipulated towards remain via the endless scare stories from politicians and 'experts' - and yet leave still won!

Everyone saw your red bus and all the other lies. But nice try. And, yes, you “won” through manipulating the vote. Very impressive. 

Edited December 11, 20187 yr by welovesundaysatspace

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Here's an idea.

 

Secret ballot by parliament followed by ratification by referendum

Here a better idea Each MP resign forcing a by election stand for re-election as a independent candidate on either A Leave or Remain ticket 

2 hours ago, stephenterry said:

However, it meets the referendum ballot options which were to remain or leave the EU. Nothing else for the populace to vote for. No options on the single market, or the customs Union, or the ECJ involvement. But then May managed to get all these extra 'leaving terms' through parliament owing to Brexiteers pressures.

 

And now they're complaining when May has made a deal that meets the people's vote. IMO, the whole Brexit scenarion is the largest folly ever undertaken by any UK government.

 

That is really funny....

 

"May made a deal that meets the peoples vote"

 

The vote was to leave the EU. The deal seperates us from the EU in name only. It is a complete whitewash.

 

Please formulate your argument with facts. The deal does not meet the peoples vote at all. The deal offered is basically to remain but with no voting priveleges. 

13 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Everyone saw your red bus and all the other lies. 

 

Where exactly was I “campaigning for [the UK] to remain”? 

 

Everyone saw your red bus and all the other lies. But nice try. And, yes, you “won” through manipulating the vote. Very impressive. 

There a new bus in town its a Blue Bus funded by #peoplevote also spouting lies as they have had been caught out

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/post-brexit-britain-may-not-want-to-pay-for-northern-ireland-1.3723855?__vfz=rtw_top_pages%3D11000002670848

It would appear the #peoplevote battlebus that appears in the above link has been caught out telling huge porkies 

77% of young people not want Brexit?

CLAIM: 77% of young people in the UK don’t want Brexit.

CONCLUSION: Inaccurate. Polls for Great Britain show support from those aged 18-24 for remaining in the EU at between 57% and 71%; for Northern Ireland, between 48% and 57%.

https://factcheckni.org/facts/do-77-...t-want-brexit/

 

15 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

There a new bus in town its a Blue Bus funded by #peoplevote also spouting lies as they have had been caught out

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/post-brexit-britain-may-not-want-to-pay-for-northern-ireland-1.3723855?__vfz=rtw_top_pages%3D11000002670848

It would appear the #peoplevote battlebus that appears in the above link has been caught out telling huge porkies 

77% of young people not want Brexit?

CLAIM: 77% of young people in the UK don’t want Brexit.

CONCLUSION: Inaccurate. Polls for Great Britain show support from those aged 18-24 for remaining in the EU at between 57% and 71%; for Northern Ireland, between 48% and 57%.

https://factcheckni.org/facts/do-77-...t-want-brexit/

 

Holding up polling of the opposite side question about what you want does not invalidate or prove inaccurate the poll of a question asking the opposite.  If you ask the same 1000 people if they want brexit, and then you ask that same 1000 people if they want to remain in the EU - you will never get that to add up to 1000 people (could be more could be less - but almost never equal).  Inside each side of the question - you have a variety of what people actually want -- and many will answer the question differently depending on which way it is asked because the question itself does not give that person a say on what they actually want (which could be something that is not brexit, and not status-quo).

Edited December 11, 20187 yr by bkkcanuck8

3 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

I'm not a Brit, so no horse in the race, but if you go through my post history you will find that I posted when May became PM that she would do everyting to remain.

 

Just look at the news from the first weeks after she became PM, which her priorities and appointments were, and it will be clear that a brexit was not on the books for her.

It's OK. I believe you.

37 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Everyone saw your red bus and all the other lies. But nice try. And, yes, you “won” through manipulating the vote. Very impressive. 

But you are just repeating the same mantra over and over again, 4th time today, why does it bother you so much, one can only assume you a very desperate for the UK not to leave your Shangri La.

 

You know that both sides were a little liberal with the truth, so why are you only showing one side of the coin, oh I know, you are extremely biased, to a fault.

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

But you are just repeating the same mantra over and over again, 4th time today, why does it bother you so much, one can only assume you a very desperate for the UK not to leave your Shangri La.

 

You know that both sides were a little liberal with the truth, so why are you only showing one side of the coin, oh I know, you are extremely biased, to a fault.

He's just jealous. Always wanted to be a bus driver but failed the test.

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

Might need a general election for the latter to happen - Corbyn to become PM and then some 'brexit sanity' could return. DD, you need to come to terms that a no-deal scenario would never be sanctioned by parliament as it would be an economic catastrophe for the UK - according to every financial article published to date. 

 

That Brexit supporters choose to ignore the actuality is sad.  

Wherever you stand the whole Brexit businesses been a total clusterf##k, or a complete bourach (old Scots word). This post is correct, the idea that a hard brexit would be anything but a disaster has been ridiculed when the Economist made mince out of Prof Minford's absurd arguments (He of Economists for Brexit). If anyone wants to "Just leave" (Easy as that ho ho) it is of course your right, however at least accept that it will cost the UK big time, and if the Tories are in power the poor will pay with years and years more austerity. 

No one knows where Corbyn stands, including probably Corbyn himself. However what is abundantly clear is that this is a mega game of political poker, being played by politicians with our futures as the stakes. They fundamentaly don't give a damn for the economy (Accept in as far as it affects them) or the voters, they are motivated by ambition, greed, or an ideology with no hope of working in practice. The likes of JR-M are in bliss playing their hand to hold their own party to ransom.

 

The center turkey here has lost his brain. If I have to hear "Respect the result"  again I will loose the will to live. No, I don't respect the result, the leave campaign went on spending for the final two days of the campaign having breached the spending limits. Arron Banks can't explain where his £8m came from, but it's not Russia, oh no no not Russia, definitely not Russia, well any of you can believe him if you like. What part of THEY BROKE THE LAW do people find it hard to understand.

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

He's just jealous. Always wanted to be a bus driver but failed the test.

So he wanted to be the perpetrator of a scam rather than the victim of it? Sure you're not projecting?

28 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

There a new bus in town its a Blue Bus funded by #peoplevote also spouting lies as they have had been caught out

Like I said: A manipulated vote must be declared void and rerun. Accepting a manipulated vote is completely undemocratic; true banana republic style. 

14 minutes ago, vogie said:

But you are just repeating the same mantra over and over again, 4th time today, why does it bother you so much, one can only assume you a very desperate for the UK not to leave your Shangri La.

Why do you think it bothers me? I am repeating it because the discussion around it is repeating. 

 

14 minutes ago, vogie said:

You know that both sides were a little liberal with the truth, so why are you only showing one side of the coin, oh I know, you are extremely biased, to a fault.

Where did I show “only (...) one side of the coin”? My point is that the referendum was manipulated, and that proper democracies do not accept manipulated votes. 

5 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Like I said: A manipulated vote must be declared void and rerun. Accepting a manipulated vote is completely undemocratic; true banana republic style. 

So what your saying is any 2nd referendum is null and void even before it takes place due to the above

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

When I lived in the uk I used to read the Guardian mostly, the Independent from time to time - admittedly because they mostly agreed with my views..... ☹️

You may find this palatable then from The Guardian, discussing print media influence on the referendum, and positing the old chestnut was it "the sun wot won it"?

 

From the article: "British newspapers were overwhelmingly in favour of Brexit, with the Mail, Telegraph, Express and Star accounting for four times as many readers and anti-EU stories as their pro-remain rivals."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/24/mail-sun-uk-brexit-newspapers

3 hours ago, stephenterry said:

Norway manages without one, albeit with difficulties, and I agree remaining in the current EU customs Union is by far the best route to resolve the  Irish issue.

Just to be clear, Norway has a "hard" border with Sweden because it is not in a customs union with the EU. This is the precise issue in Ireland.

3 hours ago, evadgib said:

Too time consuming and open to sculduggery ☺

It's the biggest decision in over 70 years! Who cares how long it takes or how much it costs to get right?

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

So what your saying is any 2nd referendum is null and void even before it takes place due to the above

There are at least three incorrect things that campaigns can do to gain votes:-

1) Mislead the voters, exaggeration etc.

2) Lie to the voters (£350M excluded the rebate taken off BEFORE we sent money to the EU, thus it was a lie, plain and simple.)

3) Break the Law.

Politicians lie and mislead all the time, if we stopped votes because of this elections would never happen.

Breaking the law is grounds to declare a referendum or an election null and void. It happens with constituency elections from time to time.

6 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

There was no democratic vote. There was a manipulated referendum. 

Manipulated but yet you still managed to lose.