ICT Minister Rants Against Foreigners

[tijnebijn]

Its time thaialnad should get rid of those old iceage leaders,no matter what they pop up,where are the younger coming up leaders in potency??Are there any??Are they given a chance is the answer!Nope!

Thats why things are how they are and ofcourse the thai themselves do not even have a clue what is going on.

The informative level is so low,the most of them do not even know what they vote for.....

True really is,I feel with them (thai)and hope somebody new and good comes up,without being overwhelmingly rich,is this possible?

[loong]

Loong, I am not expressing my opinion. I am trying to explain how Thai people look at foreigners.

You can read Thai language right? You should go to read the Thai forums regarding these subjects (immigration/foreign companies/self-sufficiency). There you see the opinion of Thai people. Believe me, these messages would be considered as pure racisme on european forums.

Sorry, I did think that you were expressing your opinion. Yes, you are absolutely right, there is a lot of racist, anti-farang sentiment in Thailand. This is, of course not unique to Thailand, there are a lot of racists in almost every country. But it is very rare in any developed country to hear remarks that could be construed as racist from government officials.

These forums that you speak about are used by educated people I should think. I think that is very sad.

I do know that many if not most Thais have a low opinion of farang. Rural Thais are usually very friendly (genuine), but they still consider that most of us are stupid. Mind you, I have many farang friends in Thailand and I think that quite a few of have done some stupid things as well

Let's face it, most Thais' experience with farang is with tourists and expats. All over Pattaya there are farang "businessmen" investing in bars, restaurants etc. They pay too much rent, too much key money and pay too low wages. Are they supposed to be impressed by their farang boss who works them 30 days a month, 10 hours per day and pays them between 3 and 6000 Bt per month? Maybe they do feel exploited. I can understand that. Looking at it simply, if you were working in a service industry and your day's wages equates to the profit on 2 small beers, would you feel exploited? The staff probably think that the boss is earning a fortune, yet in reality he is often losing money because of the high outgoings.

Incidentally, I'm not saying that Thai bosses treat their staff any better, probably worse. But it's a different thing to feel exploited by your own countrymen than by a foreigner.

So what you have is the Thai landlords consider the farang "businessmen" morons for paying such high rents and the Thai staff could well feel exploited.

If this is the Thai perception of foreign businessmen, then I can understand if they say "No thanks"

[Falux2]

I guess the only way Thailand would do anything right in the eyes of these pompous farangs is to keep depending on their technology forever (i.e keep being their economic slaves.) Of course, if Thailand failed, it would be even better. Why would you not be thrilled to see 50 bath per dollar exchange rate, right? Who wouldn't like having cheap beers and cheap prostitutes while laughing your asses off at their backwardness at the same time?

That's the mentality that stops Thailand from getting anywhere. I live here, I love Thai people, and none of you can do what I do. That's why I got invited here.

You, ThaiGoonie, and this minister hurt your own by thinking that we want your money and your girls only. 98% of us have dark skin girls that you wouldn't even like as maids. And we love them even after they are 30. A thing Thais are very uncapable of.

All of us want a life, that's all.

[jumnien]

It's kind of bizarre for farangs to accuse Thais of not liking or even being racist against farang. Let's face it, be honest, we individual farangs have a very low opinion of most other farangs in Thailand, most of us don't even like the blacks particularly that hang out here on soi 3, we try to avoid stupid farang as much as possible and certainly wouldn't engage in much business activity with the low life farangs on the run in Thailand. Those with female children would shudder with the thought that they would ultimately hook up with a typical farang hanging out here.

It's the disgust for farang, with notable exceptions, that unites us farang and Thai!

[Prakanong]

It's kind of bizarre for farangs to accuse Thais of not liking or even being racist against farang. Let's face it, be honest, we individual farangs have a very low opinion of most other farangs in Thailand, most of us don't even like the blacks particularly that hang out here on soi 3, we try to avoid stupid farang as much as possible and certainly wouldn't engage in much business activity with the low life farangs on the run in Thailand. Those with female children would shudder with the thought that they would ultimately hook up with a typical farang hanging out here.

It's the disgust for farang, with notable exceptions, that unites us farang and Thai!

yeah but its not the disgusting farang as you refer to them that are raking the profits form all this hi-tech stuff the Thai's are buying is it?

[my benny rai]

Back to the original issue and that is the ICT Minister bemoaning the fact that there is no Thai products on the market. Thailand did have an opportunity to become a major hardware manufacturing hub in the mid 90s, but blew it big time.

There were indeed major high-tech companies set up in Thailand (majority owned and managed in Thailand) that went bust at the dawn of the 21st Century. Thailand lost its chance to produce Thai-made chips, etc. due to a combination of corruption, mismanagement and the 1997 recession. However, I should point out that major foreign investors from Silicon Valley lost millions and millions of dollars because of cooked books, misappropriated funds, and the failure to honor a pair of billion dollar IT contracts.

So read the words again and you will realize that major amounts of money were tricked out of the hands of foreign companies through a complex process of bait and switch tactics and cooked books:

"It is sad that today we cannot find any Thai products. The technology show here provides foreigners an opportunity to take money from Thai people. To be truly proud, it should show technology that has been developed by Thais."

Thailand could have shown its pride by showing "technology that has been developed by Thais" if it were not for the huge Thai IT corruption debacle of the late 90s that gave certain people the opportunity to take money from foreign investors.

Edited February 28, 2007 by my benny rai

[ThaiGoon]

Edited February 28, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[my benny rai]

Thanks for the PM ThaiGoon!

I was hesitant to post anything because I don't like getting into the farang vs. Thai debate. I am happy living here. No place is perfect. I just wanted to give a different angle to the discussion to state the reason why there are not any "Thai made" IT products.

Edited February 28, 2007 by my benny rai

[ThaiGoon]

Edited February 28, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[farang prince]

What does it take to create innovation? Well, first of all, it takes an original idea. Then it takes legal protection of the innovative idea. And then it takes money...lots of it...to bring the idea to fruition. If Thailand has the environment to handle these three issues then there is no reason why innovation cannot be fostered here.

[wintermute]

What does it take to create innovation? Well, first of all, it takes an original idea. Then it takes legal protection of the innovative idea. And then it takes money...lots of it...to bring the idea to fruition. If Thailand has the environment to handle these three issues then there is no reason why innovation cannot be fostered here.

Thailand throws plenty of money around at ideas and schemes. The problem is the tepid educational system doesn't create the thinkers necessary to formulate ideas that can create and foster new industries. This is why Thailand can't compete. It's not because of lack of resources, land, or anything else. It's just simply brain power.

[ThaiGoon]

Thailand throws plenty of money around at ideas and schemes. The problem is the tepid educational system doesn't create the thinkers necessary to formulate ideas that can create and foster new industries. This is why Thailand can't compete. It's not because of lack of resources, land, or anything else. It's just simply brain power.

You talking about others lacking "brainpower" is really an oxymoron. I don't want say anything further. I'm just tired of saying the same things to the same ............

[wintermute]

Thailand throws plenty of money around at ideas and schemes. The problem is the tepid educational system doesn't create the thinkers necessary to formulate ideas that can create and foster new industries. This is why Thailand can't compete. It's not because of lack of resources, land, or anything else. It's just simply brain power.

You talking about others lacking "brainpower" is really an oxymoron. I don't want say anything further. I'm just tired of saying the same things to the same ............

Ok then if the Thai educational system is so awesome then why are you studying in the U.S.? If you have nothing to add then run along.

[mpdkorat]

I don't see this as xenophobia at all. The minister made a valid point. There's no point to be proud of other people's investions which this event was all about. He was encouraging Thais to develop more of their own technology so we won't have to be dependent on foreign technology too much. He made an excellent point reallly. He wasn't bashing foreigners. If there's any group of people he wanted to critize, it was Thais. We shouldn't have this false sense of pride. Any foreigners who got offended by this comment need to open their minds more.

Good point. I agree

[ThaiGoon]

Thailand throws plenty of money around at ideas and schemes. The problem is the tepid educational system doesn't create the thinkers necessary to formulate ideas that can create and foster new industries. This is why Thailand can't compete. It's not because of lack of resources, land, or anything else. It's just simply brain power.

You talking about others lacking "brainpower" is really an oxymoron. I don't want say anything further. I'm just tired of saying the same things to the same ............

Ok then if the Thai educational system is so awesome then why are you studying in the U.S.? If you have nothing to add then run along.

I never said that the system is so awesome. It's just not as bad as you made it out. Your generalization that it doesn't create any thinkers is just plain stupid. Thai students who go study abroad and do really well after they got their bachelor's degrees in Thailand are the living proof of it.

Edited February 28, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[wintermute]

Thailand throws plenty of money around at ideas and schemes. The problem is the tepid educational system doesn't create the thinkers necessary to formulate ideas that can create and foster new industries. This is why Thailand can't compete. It's not because of lack of resources, land, or anything else. It's just simply brain power.

You talking about others lacking "brainpower" is really an oxymoron. I don't want say anything further. I'm just tired of saying the same things to the same ............

Ok then if the Thai educational system is so awesome then why are you studying in the U.S.? If you have nothing to add then run along.

I never said that the system is so awesome. It's just not as bad as you made it out. Your generalization that it doesn't create any thinkers is just plain stupid. Thai students who go study abroad and do really well after they got their bachelor's degree in Thailand are the living proof of this.

Why the defensive reaction? It's generally accepted even by the MOE here that educational standards are abysmal.

That's the gist of it really, Thai students who study abroad excel even further and are able to make use of those opportunities..those who stay at home are mired in the same cultural/educational morass that holds back the rest of Thailand. I know plenty of Thais who have sought opportunities abroad because of these limitations. This is nothing new or exciting

[Payboy]

everything will be okay once they build a pantip plaza in mae hong son - seeing that they have slated the area as the next silicon valley of thailand!

[Prakanong]

So Phukit is off the agenda now?

What do I care - I now have more important points to consider such as how to get flights to HK from SG for the Hong Kong 7's!!

[stormnut]

I think if Thailand did start making and exporting computers, tv's radios and a lot of other things then it would be very beneficial to the country.

Maybe it would make the world stop and think about other things other than Thailand is a cheap place to visit for everything, and I do mean everything.

I only spent 16 days in and around Pak Thong Chai, but the people were the most friendliest, and gentle people I have met, but also very poor because of the lack of work, and what work there is, is very hard and for very poor pay.

My wife is still in Thailand, (I am in Brisbane Australia) and she works in a laundry ironing clothes for between 12 and 16 hours a day 7 days a week for 15,000 Baht per month.

[Plus]

On that praising America post - ask the native Indians if they welcomed all those innovators back in the 19th century. Also, after 9-11, Americans tightened up their immigration policies and now many complain that they force brainpower to flow elsewhere, particularly brainpower from muslim countries.

Muslims are new niggers now, and not only in America.

Look at Britain or any other European country and how they welcome immigrants. They all, from Netherlands to Austria, elected anti-immigrant parties lately.

Or look at the news coming from Australia in the past couple of years. Pauline Hanson? Remember anti-asian riots? Or French head-scarves ban?

The idea that western countries are open for all is an illusion. It used to be so not long time ago but not anymore, and they are all afraid that their traditional values and culture gets dilluted and polluted as new waves of immigrants do not want to convert to western ways.

It used be a real melting pot - you go in as an Iranian and come out as American but it's not anymore, certainly not in Europe.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

I just read the original story again, in the last week issue of Database, and it didn't struck me as xenophobic at all.

>>>>>>>>

I tend to agree with posts blaming Thai elite for the mess the country is in, the only thing left unsaid is what should be done about it? Replacing the elites with peasants - communist way?

[lannarebirth]

On that praising America post - ask the native Indians if they welcomed all those innovators back in the 19th century. Also, after 9-11, Americans tightened up their immigration policies and now many complain that they force brainpower to flow elsewhere, particularly brainpower from muslim countries.

Muslims are new niggers now, and not only in America.

Look at Britain or any other European country and how they welcome immigrants. They all, from Netherlands to Austria, elected anti-immigrant parties lately.

Or look at the news coming from Australia in the past couple of years. Pauline Hanson? Remember anti-asian riots? Or French head-scarves ban?

The idea that western countries are open for all is an illusion. It used to be so not long time ago but not anymore, and they are all afraid that their traditional values and culture gets dilluted and polluted as new waves of immigrants do not want to convert to western ways.

It used be a real melting pot - you go in as an Iranian and come out as American but it's not anymore, certainly not in Europe.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

I just read the original story again, in the last week issue of Database, and it didn't struck me as xenophobic at all.

>>>>>>>>

I tend to agree with posts blaming Thai elite for the mess the country is in, the only thing left unsaid is what should be done about it? Replacing the elites with peasants - communist way?

That immigrants become "Americanized" more slowly now is not really the fault of the American govt or the American people. It's a smaller world now. When my grandparents immigrated they never ever went back to the place they came from. They had to make new lives in America and nec essarily became Americans. Immigrants now are on the plabne constantly back to the place they came from, and more often than not simply use their earning power in the states to fund economic ventures overseas. If they stay more than one generation their children do indeed join the melting pot.

[nick2k]

On that praising America post - ask the native Indians if they welcomed all those innovators back in the 19th century. Also, after 9-11, Americans tightened up their immigration policies and now many complain that they force brainpower to flow elsewhere, particularly brainpower from muslim countries.

Muslims are new niggers now, and not only in America.

Look at Britain or any other European country and how they welcome immigrants. They all, from Netherlands to Austria, elected anti-immigrant parties lately.

Or look at the news coming from Australia in the past couple of years. Pauline Hanson? Remember anti-asian riots? Or French head-scarves ban?

The idea that western countries are open for all is an illusion. It used to be so not long time ago but not anymore, and they are all afraid that their traditional values and culture gets dilluted and polluted as new waves of immigrants do not want to convert to western ways.

It used be a real melting pot - you go in as an Iranian and come out as American but it's not anymore, certainly not in Europe.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

I just read the original story again, in the last week issue of Database, and it didn't struck me as xenophobic at all.

>>>>>>>>

I tend to agree with posts blaming Thai elite for the mess the country is in, the only thing left unsaid is what should be done about it? Replacing the elites with peasants - communist way?

the communist way is too extreme. if you review recent history, you will see that the process is very cruel.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

literally millions were murdered in the communists attempt to convert the whole world in the last century.

personally, I think the way the usa did it is better. ..through the use of "unions". if you are serious about the process, do you own research. google is there for everybody to use.

might I add that "education" is very important for a strong "union" to result. without one, you will not achieve the other. you will be just like rats in a cage. unaware, non-comprehending animals frantically searching for a solution that will forever escape you.

[moonoi]

Look at Britain or any other European country and how they welcome immigrants. They all, from Netherlands to Austria, elected anti-immigrant parties lately.

Or look at the news coming from Australia in the past couple of years. Pauline Hanson? Remember anti-asian riots? Or French head-scarves ban?

Of course the French head scarf ban was nothing to do with anti immigration. In fact it wasn't a head scarf ban. Its a ban on all religious symbols in government offices. Nothing wrong with that, France is a secularist society (ie seperation of religion and state). It was just blown out of proportion by the french muslims and portrayed as an attack on them, which was additionaly fueled by the media, when in fact it affects all religious symbols (jewish skull caps, christian crosses etc etc).

But I would agree in general that each country is showing more xenophobic and nationalistic behaviours than in the past. I think Australia and the US are the worst offenders of this in recent past, but the rest of europe and the UK aren't far behind.

The attitude of the population western nations now seems to be one of "You came to our country, of your own free will. You should abide by our own laws or go home" not a lot differant to Thailand really.

I would say though that in this article it is a mistranslation to incite just the kind of reactions by foreigners you see on this board and on a wider scale, perhaps to try and further undermine investor confidence in an already weak interim government.

[Plus]

Of course the French head scarf ban was nothing to do with anti immigration. In fact it wasn't a head scarf ban. Its a ban on all religious symbols in government offices.

It was a head scarf ban that included crosses and scull caps as an afterthought. And most muslims in France are immigrants, so it is clear who was targeted.

Or do you seriously believe that they were outraged over native French people wearing crosses?

Twenty-thirty years ago America was a dream country, even for Europeans. Everyone believed in their ideals of freedom and democracy. That perception has clearly changed in the past five years. America as a bastion of democracy? Not after 2000 elections. America as a bastion of freedom? Not after the Iraq war. Clinton and his oral sex stories made America a joke, Bush has turned it into a disaster.

Twenty thirty years ago I would sign under Chianmaiamerica's post myself, but the world has changed.

The whole issue with the IT minister is blown out of proportion.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Of course the French head scarf ban was nothing to do with anti immigration. In fact it wasn't a head scarf ban. Its a ban on all religious symbols in government offices.

It was a head scarf ban that included crosses and scull caps as an afterthought. And most muslims in France are immigrants, so it is clear who was targeted.

Or do you seriously believe that they were outraged over native French people wearing crosses?

Twenty-thirty years ago America was a dream country, even for Europeans. Everyone believed in their ideals of freedom and democracy. That perception has clearly changed in the past five years. America as a bastion of democracy? Not after 2000 elections. America as a bastion of freedom? Not after the Iraq war. Clinton and his oral sex stories made America a joke, Bush has turned it into a disaster.

Twenty thirty years ago I would sign under Chianmaiamerica's post myself, but the world has changed.

The whole issue with the IT minister is blown out of proportion.

Bush and his allies have indeed been a disaster. I didn't vote for him either time and I warned others I know about him. Most didn't listen. 5 years later they suddenly see the light. Remember Richard M. Nixon. Bush and he will probably tie for the most corrupt president in history. Nixon did have as his advantage some competence in foreign policy.

Despite all this people continue to come to America to invest and live including Muslims. Muslims continue to emmigrate to America at least according to a friend who is an immigration attorney. I met several when I was visiting his office a few years ago. One brought a gift of candy after he returned from Hajj. This was post 9/11. My friend BTW is an Christian. A Muslim, Keith Ellison, was elected to the US House of Representatives last fall as were members of various other religions. In the part of the United States I am from there is a large Palestinian population. They have been coming to this part of America since the 1800s. More arrived after 1948. Palestinians continue to arrive, usually relatives of the earlier arrivals. The Palestinian-Americans in my community have held political office and are thought of as Americans by people living there. After the World Trade Center attack they banded together and had a major fundraiser to help the people of New York.

The system in America will correct itself. The correction has already begun as evidenced by last November's election. The 2008 election cycle will likely see further change in that direction. As for the Bush family, they are finished in American politics at least for this generation. Jeb might get elected to the US Senate in Florida or Texas but that is likely the highest political office a Bush will see for many years.

As to the IT Minister, his complaint that, "The technology show here provides foreigners an opportunity to take money from Thai people." speaks to the heart of the problem. Foreign companies that build factories here, that employ thousands of Thais, that pay taxes and support the Thai economy are of no value. Only if the company is Thai and the product including all of it's inputs are Thai does the company have value. There is no pride in the Thai worker's ability to work efficiently on an assembly line and produce a quality product. My brother-in-law is a quality assurance engineer who now after a career running electronics manufacturing operations is an ISO consultant. When he was working his way up the corporate ladder he made his reputation turning assembly lines around that had unacceptable levels of returns. A one percent change on an assembly line can be very costly if negative of very profitableif positive. The Thai workers and supervisors in the plants of the companies displaying at the show are apparently able to build products and components with few enough errors the companies remain here. That alone should have been a point of pride worth mentioning. Instead the Minister chose to complain about the foreign companies selling products made in Thailand to Thais. He failed to mention the same products are exported to other countries where the bulk of sales occur.

Edited March 1, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[brahmburgers]

Yes, it would be fine if some Thais could contribute to techno-progress. Among other things, there needs to be a re-structuring of the education system to focus less on rote 'repeat after me' learning, and development of ways to encourage innovative 'rock the boat / out of the box' thinking.

I recently did some construction. I had four extension cords, each made by a different Thai (or Chinese) company - you know; the type with several plug-ins at the end, also known as 'power strips'. None worked satisfactorily. My workers and I kept having to bend the electric plug-ins to (maybe) get them to work sporadically. If Thais (and/or Chinese) can't even manufacture a simple plug-in recepticle, how can they be expected to make complicated things?

In all fairness, perhaps it could be improved by a homegrown UL standard/testing for electric - which I doubt exists in Thailand. The rule of thumb for vendors is: if it works ok when it leaves the shop - that's all that matters. If it breaks after 5 minutes of use on the job - so what(?) - the item has already been sold, so that's all that matters.

[farang prince]

On that praising America post - ask the native Indians if they welcomed all those innovators back in the 19th century. Also, after 9-11, Americans tightened up their immigration policies and now many complain that they force brainpower to flow elsewhere, particularly brainpower from muslim countries.

Muslims are new niggers now, and not only in America.

Your use of the "n" word is offensive. I don't know if you are using it for dramatic effect or not. But try to expand your vocabulary to find another way of getting your point across.

[Bagwan]

Excellant post!

In America an Actor such as Arnold Swarzenegger who was born in Austria and emigrated to USA could become a high ranking politician and also be seen by some as a possible candidate for the presidency.

He has made millions legally and honestly and he now wants to give back to the community that allowed him to do so well.

This is the American dream.

Swarzenegger cannot hope to be installed in the White House. Presidents must be native born Americans, according to the Constitution. I could not for a microsecond believe that candidates for the Presidency put themselves forward out of altruism.

[Begbie]

try your best to comprehend it without any bias. Hope it's not over your head.

A Thai saying this to a Farang.

Aah the irony.

[ThaiGoon]

try your best to comprehend it without any bias. Hope it's not over your head.

A Thai saying this to a Farang.

Aah the irony.

You saying this to ANYONE.

Edited March 3, 2007 by ThaiGoon