Britons would now vote to stay in EU, want second referendum: poll

[SheungWan]

13 hours ago, evadgib said:

 

Nothing else matters as far as I'm concerned. They can 'Cock-a-doodle-doo' all they like ????

Charge Of The Light Brigade.

[tebee]

Brexit is the certain route to a divided Britain

 

https://www.ft.com/content/2538628c-1423-11e9-a581-4ff78404524e

 

 

In the real world, revisiting the decision taken in 2016 would be divisive only in the sense that the Brexit vote was itself divisive. Plebiscites are exercises not in democracy but in crude majoritarianism. The institutions and norms of liberal democracy are there to protect the rights of minorities. Referendums afford no such respect to the loser.

[keemapoot]

39 minutes ago, tebee said:

Brexit is the certain route to a divided Britain

 

https://www.ft.com/content/2538628c-1423-11e9-a581-4ff78404524e

 

 

In the real world, revisiting the decision taken in 2016 would be divisive only in the sense that the Brexit vote was itself divisive. Plebiscites are exercises not in democracy but in crude majoritarianism. The institutions and norms of liberal democracy are there to protect the rights of minorities. Referendums afford no such respect to the loser.

Excellent article in the FT. And this on the threat that angry mobs of brexiters will take to the street and why a second referendum makes sense.

 

Quote

This is what happens when parliamentary democracy falls victim to a demagoguery that decrees that once voters have taken the “right” decision they cannot change their minds. It would be naive to think that a second referendum would close all the fissures opened up by Brexit. It might save the UK from the break-up of the union. 

https://www.ft.com/content/2538628c-1423-11e9-a581-4ff78404524e

[Spidey]

7 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

on another thread, the user @oilinki just pointed out

that there is a piece of statute in UK saying that UK will leave EU on 29/3

 

can A50 just be withdrawn like snap?

what does the text of statute allow for?

 

 

It was tested in the courts recently. Yes, the UK can cancel Article 50 and remain, unilaterally, at any time.

[tebee]

12 minutes ago, Spidey said:

It was tested in the courts recently. Yes, the UK can cancel Article 50 and remain, unilaterally, at any time.

We need to cancel the domestic legislation too - let's hope we have a functioning parliament long enough to do that!

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

We need to cancel the domestic legislation too - let's hope we have a functioning parliament long enough to do that!

I think the answer to that is quite vague. Act of parliament to enact Article 50 doesn't necessarily mean an act of Parliament to cancel it. Either way, it would only involve a majority vote in Parliament and then following the formalities. Not a big deal. 

[tebee]

13 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I think the answer to that is quite vague. Act of parliament to enact Article 50 doesn't necessarily mean an act of Parliament to cancel it. Either way, it would only involve a majority vote in Parliament and then following the formalities. Not a big deal. 

Where are we up to with the act formerly known as the great repeal bill? Is it on the statute books already or has it still to pass some of it's stages in parliament ?

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

Where are we up to with the act formerly known as the great repeal bill? Is it on the statute books already or has it still to pass some of it's stages in parliament ?

Secret,

[evadgib]

9 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Charge Of The Light Brigade.

Cooper, Grieve and Bercow? I hadn't thought o' that!????

 

Edited January 12, 2019 by evadgib

[melvinmelvin]

5 hours ago, Spidey said:

It was tested in the courts recently. Yes, the UK can cancel Article 50 and remain, unilaterally, at any time.

ooops, I gather that I did not express myself clearly

 

I take it you refer to ECJ's findings? Yes, I am aware of that one.

 

What I was referring to is the piece of UK legislation passed by parliament quite a while ago,

the statute that stipulates that UK leaves on 29 March.

 

Does the language in this statute allow for prolongation of A50 (subject to all 28 agreeing of course)?

 

Does the language in this statute allow for revoking A50?

 

Or does that particular piece of legislation need to be changed or withdrawn

in order for prolongation or cancellation to be carried out.

 

(Hope I was clearer now, tricky this lingo of yours.)

 

 

 

[Spidey]

5 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

ooops, I gather that I did not express myself clearly

 

I take it you refer to ECJ's findings? Yes, I am aware of that one.

 

What I was referring to is the piece of UK legislation passed by parliament quite a while ago,

the statute that stipulates that UK leaves on 29 March.

 

Does the language in this statute allow for prolongation of A50 (subject to all 28 agreeing of course)?

 

Does the language in this statute allow for revoking A50?

 

Or does that particular piece of legislation need to be changed or withdrawn

in order for prolongation or cancellation to be carried out.

 

(Hope I was clearer now, tricky this lingo of yours.)

 

 

 

I did try to answer that in a subsequent post. Short answer, "I'm not sure".

 

Long answer: The statute seemed relatively easy to enact, at the time. Should be equally easy to revoke it. 

 

I grow more optimistic by the day that this Brexit nonsense is dead in the water and that we can look forward to recovery of the £, 40 baht/£ is ridiculous. Also, stock market recovery and consequent recovery of my share portfolio.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Spidey

[Jane Dough]

After considerable and adult reflection on this issue I think I have the answer.

 

Best of three referendums and we have a winner.

 

Best of five if they have time.

 

Rooster

[SheungWan]

26 minutes ago, Jane Dough said:

After considerable and adult reflection on this issue I think I have the answer.

 

Best of three referendums and we have a winner.

 

Best of five if they have time.

 

Rooster

You have already had two, so the next one should give you your winner. 

[Spidey]

27 minutes ago, Jane Dough said:

After considerable and adult reflection on this issue I think I have the answer.

 

Best of three referendums and we have a winner.

 

Best of five if they have time.

 

Rooster

We should really have a system like the election of the President in France.

 

First round ballot: Remain, hard Brexit, soft Brexit, N+ Brexit.

 

The 2 with the highest votes should then go into a deciding ballot.

[yogi100]

14 hours ago, oilinki said:

Evolution and adaptation in social environments. 

 

There has been a lot of works and tasks in the pasts, which doesn't make sense in today's world. One can stay and complain how everything was better in the past, or one can move on, learn new skills and adapt to the situation. 

 

The same applies to societies. If a city council or a parliament of the country are wise and forward thinking enough, they'll understand the problems ahead and steer their communities towards better future. This has happened and is happening in many countries, all the time. 

 

 

 

In the real world 'Evolution and adaptation in social environments doesn't put people back into work. Nor does bringing in masses of cheap foreign labour to permit businesses to make even bigger profits than they ever have done in the past.

 

You can't provide create employment out of thin air especially when the vast majority of your industries have been sold off to foreign investors or moved abroad.

 

Our own car manufacturers are mostly gone, as have the companies that made domestic appliances, shipping and most other heavy and light industry. Even HP Sauce is now made in one of the Benelux countries.

 

More people are employed in the public sector than work in manufacturing. In real terms there are now over 8.5 million economically inactive people of working age in Britain. The politicians have managed to juggle things around and tell us that unemployment is at an all time low of under two million.

 

That's why most working class Britons distrust, despise and even hate politicians more than they do bankers, lawyers and estate agents. Because politicians are supposed to act in OUR interests.

 

Do you think us British people are just whinging for the sake of it or do you not see we've got reason to be angry at what's happened in our country in recent decades.

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

 

In the real world 'Evolution and adaptation in social environments doesn't put people back into work. Nor does bringing in masses of cheap foreign labour to permit businesses to make even bigger profits than they ever have done in the past.

 

You can't provide create employment out of thin air especially when the vast majority of your industries have been sold off to foreign investors or moved abroad.

 

...

The problem is we have pretty much full employment, yes there is some unemployment, but that's because a certain percentage of any society is pretty much unemployable. 

 

The problem is more in the quality of those jobs - zero hours contracts and low minimum hourly rates that haven't kept up with costs - housing costs in particular.

[billd766]

14 hours ago, oilinki said:

That's the most positive post on these threads yet ????

 

Does May have the power to withdraw A50 by herself? 

I am not sure if that is positive or not.

 

I don't think that the PM can withdraw A50 under any circumstances and certainly not by herself.

 

I have a vague memory of seeing part of a debate earlier this week on the BBC News website between an MP and an MP but I cannot remember who or when. The upshot was that A50 was a statute and needed another statute to remove it.

 

In desperation I even went to Hansard https://hansard.parliament.uk/search/Debates?house=commons to try to find it but I got bogged down looking for it as I cannot remember the date or the MPs name.

[Spidey]

7 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

The politicians have managed to juggle things around and tell us that unemployment is at an all time low of under two million.

When I left school it was 300k. I remember the public outcry when it hit 1m, the government fell. Maggie Thatcher was the first person to push it beyond 3m. Since then, successive governments have come up with a number of imaginative ways of calculating the unemployment figures. Each one lowering the headline figure until it has now become completely meaningless.

[anon676545345]

9 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

 

In the real world 'Evolution and adaptation in social environments doesn't put people back into work. Nor does bringing in masses of cheap foreign labour to permit businesses to make even bigger profits than they ever have done in the past.

 

You can't provide create employment out of thin air especially when the vast majority of your industries have been sold off to foreign investors or moved abroad.

 

Our own car manufacturers are mostly gone, as have the companies that made domestic appliances, shipping and most other heavy and light industry. Even HP Sauce is now made in one of the Benelux countries.

 

More people are employed in the public sector than work in manufacturing. In real terms there are now over 8.5 million economically inactive people of working age in Britain. The politicians have managed to juggle things around and tell us that unemployment is at an all time low of under two million.

 

That's why most working class Britons distrust, despise and even hate politicians more than they do bankers, lawyers and estate agents. Because politicians are supposed to act in OUR interests.

 

Do you think us British people are just whinging for the sake of it or do you not see we've got reason to be angry at what's happened in our country in recent decades.

 

Remainers don't like the working class it's as simple as that, just look at this thread they're only interested in things like their 'share portfolio' recovering and getting a better exchange rate. They hate the fact we had a referendum where the masses had a chance to be heard, they hate the fact that their vote is equal to that of a white van man. 

 

The corrupt media like to portray Brexiteers as xenophobic nationalists, too uneducated to know what's good for them. In doing so the real reasons people voted leave have barely been discussed. Successive Tory and Labour governments have traded off our industries to gain a better deal for Londons financial institutions. That's why project fear didn't work, when you've got nothing you've got nothing to lose.

[Spidey]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

The problem is we have pretty much full employment, yes there is some unemployment, but that's because a certain percentage of any society is pretty much unemployable. 

 

The problem is more in the quality of those jobs - zero hours contracts and low minimum hourly rates that haven't kept up with costs - housing costs in particular.

We have nowhere near full employment. If the true figure were known, it would be shockingly high. Officially 4.2% (IMHO very skewed). Germany 3.4% (and they think that they have a problem).

 

As you say, many low quality jobs. I know of some zero hours contracts where people are working, on average, 20 hours/ week on minimum wage, some weeks actually zero hours, but they are still counted as "employed".

 

The figures are a complete joke.

[Spidey]

6 minutes ago, Chartist said:

 

Remainers don't like the working class it's as simple as that, just look at this thread they're only interested in things like their 'share portfolio' recovering and getting a better exchange rate. They hate the fact we had a referendum where the masses had a chance to be heard, they hate the fact that their vote is equal to that of a white van man. 

 

The corrupt media like to portray Brexiteers as xenophobic nationalists, too uneducated to know what's good for them. In doing so the real reasons people voted leave have barely been discussed. Successive Tory and Labour governments have traded off our industries to gain a better deal for Londons financial institutions. That's why project fear didn't work, when you've got nothing you've got nothing to lose.

I'm a remainer and am most definitely working class. Your assertion is completely absurd. It's people like you that give Brexiteers a bad name.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Spidey

[yogi100]

13 hours ago, Chartist said:

 

The Tories back Brexit, what planet are you living on! there's a minority of conservatives headed by Rees Mogg who back Brexit the Tories are 'overwhelmingly' remain hence why they're doing such a good job of screwing up Brexit, they don't want to leave.

 

As for the financial crisis, the influx of foreign labour at a time when there were limited job opportunities meant lower wages, its supply and demand if an employer can pay an EU migrant less than a local to do the same job they will. I've worked with plenty of Polish guys, good people and good at their job, I've got no issue with them however if your trying to pay a mortgage and support a family your living costs are much higher than a migrant worker living in a shared house.

The Tories along with most politicians are trying to do an Ireland and Denmark on us in the hope that they can make us have another referendum. The establishment controls the media and they know it. They are playing for time in the hope that we'll weaken and fold.

 

While Joe Bloggs is having to tighten his belt and worry about having an EE nick his job May and her cronies are secure in the knowledge they will still be getting their 100 grand a year with a wonderful pension and probably more if they win the waiting game and make us remain in the EU.

 

Theresa's on a promise from Jean Claude Juncker who's on nearly 400, 000 Euros a year himself while his top EU civil servants now receive 20,000 Euros a month, that's 240,000 a year. Fantastic money in anyone's language that dwarfs an MP's salary and our boys and girls in Westminster want some of that action and want to keep us in the EU at any cost to get it. They could not give a sh!t about us! You're a fool if you think they do.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

I did try to answer that in a subsequent post. Short answer, "I'm not sure".

 

Long answer: The statute seemed relatively easy to enact, at the time. Should be equally easy to revoke it. 

 

I grow more optimistic by the day that this Brexit nonsense is dead in the water and that we can look forward to recovery of the £, 40 baht/£ is ridiculous. Also, stock market recovery and consequent recovery of my share portfolio.

 

Yes, I see that now, thank you.

(today I started with looking at/responding to my notifications rather than reading the threads, perhaps unwise approach)

 

at any rate, as we say in Yorkshire;

 

I gather that you are a remainer and would rather stay in EU than exit, fair enough.

 

But I am kinda surprised re your optimism,

you expect may-deal to be sunk by parliament followed by an A50 revoke?

 

Good that you have confidence, but to me, it looks fairly open re which way it will go.

 

 

[evadgib]

41 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I am not sure if that is positive or not.

 

I don't think that the PM can withdraw A50 under any circumstances and certainly not by herself.

 

I have a vague memory of seeing part of a debate earlier this week on the BBC News website between an MP and an MP but I cannot remember who or when. The upshot was that A50 was a statute and needed another statute to remove it.

 

In desperation I even went to Hansard https://hansard.parliament.uk/search/Debates?house=commons to try to find it but I got bogged down looking for it as I cannot remember the date or the MPs name.

It was Bill Cash talking to the speaker immediately after PMQs last weds.

 

Edited January 12, 2019 by evadgib

[Spidey]

4 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

The Tories along with most politicians are trying to do an Ireland and Denmark on us in the hope that they can make us have another referendum. The establishment controls the media and they know it. They are playing for time in the hope that we'll weaken and fold.

  

While Joe Bloggs is having to tighten his belt and worry about having an EE nick his job May and her cronies are secure in the knowledge they will still be getting their 100 grand a year with a wonderful pension and probably more if they win the waiting game and make us remain in the EU.

 

Firstly, I suggest that you read the title of this thread. Most Brits already want another referendum. It's May and her government that are trying to deny us this.

 

Far less jobs for British workers if we leave than if we remain. A number of large companies are already making plans to shift operations abroad, if we leave. Smaller manufacturing companies who currently rely on exporting their produce and partly rely on a supply chain from the EU, will find it more expensive/difficult to import/export and many will fold, causing many more job losses.

 

Be careful what you wish for.

[melvinmelvin]

45 minutes ago, Spidey said:

When I left school it was 300k. I remember the public outcry when it hit 1m, the government fell. Maggie Thatcher was the first person to push it beyond 3m. Since then, successive governments have come up with a number of imaginative ways of calculating the unemployment figures. Each one lowering the headline figure until it has now become completely meaningless.

foggy island is not alone here,

comparable creative counting takes place in several European countries

[Loiner]

21 minutes ago, Spidey said:

We have nowhere near full employment. If the true figure were known, it would be shockingly high. Officially 4.2% (IMHO very skewed). Germany 3.4% (and they think that they have a problem).

 

As you say, many low quality jobs. I know of some zero hours contracts where people are working, on average, 20 hours/ week on minimum wage, some weeks actually zero hours, but they are still counted as "employed".

 

The figures are a complete joke.

Thoroughly agree with you that the unemployment figures are a complete joke. 

 

Have you considered the reason for the average 20 hours / week? It's because there is a minimum 16hrs and max 24hrs threshold for claiming Tax Credits. These type of jobs are full of migrants.

So we have an influx of economic migrants that the Govt, Europhiles and big business can class as being employed and contributing to the economy. In actual fact we have two EEs taking the jobs that should have gone to one local. All while business avoids the costs of full time employees, but we are paying our taxes for two lots of Tax Credits++ and one British worker forced into full benefits for doing nothing.

[yogi100]

27 minutes ago, Chartist said:

 

Remainers don't like the working class it's as simple as that, just look at this thread they're only interested in things like their 'share portfolio' recovering and getting a better exchange rate. They hate the fact we had a referendum where the masses had a chance to be heard, they hate the fact that their vote is equal to that of a white van man. 

 

The corrupt media like to portray Brexiteers as xenophobic nationalists, too uneducated to know what's good for them. In doing so the real reasons people voted leave have barely been discussed. Successive Tory and Labour governments have traded off our industries to gain a better deal for Londons financial institutions. That's why project fear didn't work, when you've got nothing you've got nothing to lose.

 

Bang on the nail, not just the highlighted part but your whole post. The class system is still just as alive and kicking in the UK as ever it was. And it's got the media in it's pocket.

 

We said we wanted out by a majority of over one and a quarter million but those who think they're better than us and those crawlers who suck up to them try to kid us that we don't know what's best for us. Even those of us who have lost our jobs to EE scab workers.

[Loiner]

32 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I'm a remainer and am most definitely working class. Your assertion is completely absurd. It's people like you that give Brexiteers a bad name.

No, its people like you giving the Brexiteers bad names. Hardly a post goes by without some kind of insult or name calling.

All because we don't agree with you and more of us voted to Leave.

[anon676545345]

30 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I'm a remainer and am most definitely working class. Your assertion is completely absurd. It's people like you that give Brexiteers a bad name.

 

Brexiteers have been given a bad name from day one by the corrupt media and the lackey's who follow it, every post is met with condescension and insults from remain scum so frankly I'm past the point of caring what they think anymore.