Incessant Built-in Confusion With Thai Visa Regulations

[brahmburgers]

It makes one weary to see how Thai visa regulations are continually confusing. It's evident that Thai immigration authorities want to keep an element of confusion - in order to maintain their authority/control over those who will always be farang. Even if we resided here and contributed to Thailand for 100 years, we will always be subject to (a minimum of) an annual renewal rigamarole - because we will always look different, speak oddly and will never have Thai names.

If we were Chinese, we could get assimilated within Thailand, with citizenship and all the rest, within 5 to ten years. Similarly, anyone with Asian features could get Thai citizenship eventually - though (other than Lao) perhaps not as easily as Chinese. it doesn't hurt that the Chinese have powerful underground organizations that know who to lobby and who to bribe.

Even when there is a semblence of coherent Thai visa policy, the interpretions from one Thai consulate to another always vary. It's crystal clear that the the visa policies must have built-in confusion and difficulty. Authorities must reason that if it were a fair and uncomplicated process, it would A. result in less work for paper-pushers and rubber stamp experts (i.e. less employment), and B. would allow foreigners to feel more comfortable about staying on in Thailand. Feeling comfortable about being here is contrary to reminding us that we'll always be VISITORS here - enforcable by law, if necessary. Enjoy Thailand within the proper parameters, and spend LOTS of money - and Thai authorities will tolerate your exteneded visitations.

[jeebusjones]

Nothing new here... I whole-heartedly agree with what you've said. Thais welcome your cash but not your face. "Spend your money and be gone!" is the new TAT slogan for 2008.

[brahmburgers]

Maybe an island will form in the Mekong - between Thailand and Laos - and I'll go and claim it as sovereign territory. I'll name it Nohassleland and then issue sky blue passports to anyone who didn't have nationality - starting with hundreds of thousands of stateless people in Burma and Thailand for starters.

Come and visit sometime, and enjoy a chilled coconut with chocolate sauce.

Nothing new here... I whole-heartedly agree with what you've said. Thais welcome your cash but not your face. "Spend your money and be gone!" is the new TAT slogan for 2008.

[sonicdragon]

I think most Thais you meet in social situations welcome foreigners so long as their are well behaved.

But the Thai establishment and in particular the government and the beurocrats and the upper eschelons of Thai society cetainly do not, and it's this that most people mean when they talk about the difficulties of living here - immigration policy being but one example.

I think it is very understandable. The establishment don't want Thai culture to be diluted and infested from outside, and they are afraid of change. Why should they open up in ways that other countries did in the past ? Do they want a cosmopolitan society such as that in the UK or USA ? "Keep Thailand Thai" is what they want and you can't really tell them it is wrong. They don't owe any debts to the rest of the world such as those that resulted from the UK and other european powers colonising other countries 100-300 years ago.

[thaihome]

Please explain what you find confusing about Thai visa regulations. They are fairly straightforward (though admittedly somewhat open to individual interpretation) and easily explained as our esteemed Loburi seems to be able to with no problem. Maybe there is other issue that few dare to talk about as to why so many people struggle to understand the visa rules? (think average IQ here)

TH

[cclub75]

Even when there is a semblence of coherent Thai visa policy, the interpretions from one Thai consulate to another always vary. It's crystal clear that the the visa policies must have built-in confusion and difficulty.

With the poor sense of organisation of thai administration, the obvious incompetence of many "decision makers" and the low level of some civil servants... I think you have a point : confusion and uncertainty.

It reminds me what doctor Tarisa, boss of BOT (Bank Of Thailand), said about the capital control.

Jan. 16 (Bloomberg) -- The Bank of Thailand deliberately created ``uncertainty'' in the foreign exchange market to drive out speculators from Japan and the U.S. when it imposed curbs on investment, Governor Tarisa Watanagase said.

``It was important and necessary for us to put a brake on the sentiment, to create some uncertainty,'' Tarisa said in an interview in Bangkok yesterday. Investors had signaled that earlier measures ``were nothing'' to them, she said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=new...id=aXJE5EgfTlEM

[cclub75]

Please explain what you find confusing about Thai visa regulations. They are fairly straightforward (though admittedly somewhat open to individual interpretation) and easily explained as our esteemed Loburi seems to be able to with no problem. Maybe there is other issue that few dare to talk about as to why so many people struggle to understand the visa rules? (think average IQ here)

TH

You must have a great sense of humor... Or a huge IQ... ?

You can't dissociate rules, written on paper, and their application on the field. This is the core of any policy.

Immigration is probably the worse, because officers have, to some extend, the last word. They can deny a visa for instance, even though the rules are respected on the paper.

Best example : each consulate makes its own private immigration policy... Heu sorry, interpretation.

And moreover, it's enough to peruse the forum to understand that there are other issues, especially regarding simple procedures.

The best examples : officers at airport who have differents methods to calculate dates...

[Maestro]

Immigration is probably the worse, because officers have, to some extend, the last word. They can deny a visa for instance, even though the rules are respected on the paper.

What are you talking about? Immigration does not issue visas, Thai consulates do. Therefore Immigration cannot deny a visa.

The best examples : officers at airport who have differents methods to calculate dates...

They don’t have different methods. It’s just that some do not know how to count correctly.

--

Maestro

[TonyMontana]

I think most Thais you meet in social situations welcome foreigners so long as their are well behaved.

But the Thai establishment and in particular the government and the beurocrats and the upper eschelons of Thai society cetainly do not, and it's this that most people mean when they talk about the difficulties of living here - immigration policy being but one example.

I think it is very understandable. The establishment don't want Thai culture to be diluted and infested from outside, and they are afraid of change. Why should they open up in ways that other countries did in the past ? Do they want a cosmopolitan society such as that in the UK or USA ? "Keep Thailand Thai" is what they want and you can't really tell them it is wrong. They don't owe any debts to the rest of the world such as those that resulted from the UK and other european powers colonising other countries 100-300 years ago.

I also can understand that the Thai's dont wanna have their culture diluted by strange foreign cultures.

Why should they let the purity of Thailand get lost.

They want to keep the country clean and pure with typical Thai resataurants like;

Mc Donalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut, Pizza Company, Sizzlers, Subway etc.

Everyone should also drive real Thai cars, as we can see on Rama IV - Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW etc.

Most definitly people should live in pure Thai houses like; Majestic Tower, State Tower, Baiyoke etc.

Long live Thai purity.

Tony

[TonyMontana]

...or lets be honest... its all about money, they sold their identity/culture/pure lifestyle a long time ago...

Now its only about finding enough stupid farangs to preserve their "New Thai Culture".

People that will finace their new lifestyle.

Stop complaining you stupid farangs - Just pay and be happy for everyday you are allowed to stay in this pure Thai culture, spending your precious money...

Tony

[sonicdragon]

Well done einstien, you win the prize for stating the obvious - yeah, money is important to the emerging middle classes and the elite. Sorry for not mentioning that.

But what does it have to do with visa regulations ?

Anyway, just keeping it real, how many Lambo's have you seen in thailand on the streets ? And how much do you think it costs to buy one, compared to, say, Hong Kong ? Any idea why that is ? Let me give you a hint - it's not just to bolster the government's tax coffers.

And as for western fast food, you need to get out more - try driving 30Km in any direction from Siam. Then see how many McD, BKing, Pizza Hut, Pizza Company there are ? Maybe a few at the local Carrefour, Tesco or BigC. Then take a look inside, take out the farangs and the schoolkids, and you won't see that many people left. Meanwhile people are queuing outside MK - and you won't see many farangs in MK, apart from the ones with thei families. Anyway, my point is that sure, western culture has been invading Thailand, just as it does the entire world. It's impossible to avoid, and it will continue. I wasn't talking about that - I was talking about making *some* immigration rules difficult for some foreigners - and by *some* I mean, for example, those under 50, wishing to marry a thai and live here with or without working.

For example... I am married to a Thai, with children here. I have business in Hong Kong, and I don't work in Thailand although I would like to. I go to HK for around a few days every 2 months on average. I get my non-Imm O visa at the Thai consulate in HK - single entry only - I cannot get a multi there. Every time I leave Thailand I have to get a re-entry permit before leaving and if I forget then my visa is expired. While in HK I have to sit down and think when I will likely be returning and if it will be after my 90day stamp is up then I have to go and get another visa from the consulate. So on average I end up getting a new visa every 70-80 days, each time requiring 2 trips to the consulate. And this is just so I can be with my wife and family in Thailand. Yeah, I don't like it. But I understand it. They don't want us marrying their women and polluting their culture. This is (a small) part of the reason why will will stay in the UK this summer. I can get a mult-entry there. And incidentally, my wife got her 6 month UK visit visa after 2 days.

And before you all start flaming me, although I don't like it, I accept it. It's a very small price to pay for the advantages of living here.

Oh, and back to the Lambo for a sec, let me relate a story about a good friend in HK. He came to HK in '99 with hardly a penny. Slept on my floor for 6 weeks. Now he has decent job and owns a Lambo !! Granted, his car parking space and bank loan costs more than the rent on his apartment, but hey it's his choice. Could this ever happen in Thailand ?

Edited February 24, 2007 by sonicdragon

[brahmburgers]

What are you talking about? Immigration does not issue visas, Thai consulates do. Therefore Immigration cannot deny a visa.

It would seem to me that Thai consulates (and embassies) are a vehicle for the Immigration Service (among other functions).

Not withstanding a business-oriented organization (forgot the name) that's been active lately, Thaivisa dot com is as close to a lobbying group as farang have in Thailand. And I say that in a good way. Though the 'posters' at Thaivisa don't actually form a commitee to go and speak with Thai authorities on issues that concern us, we at least exchange ideas/opinions that may get heard from on high.

How many farang reside in Thailand at any given time? Perhaps a few hundred thousand? Whatever number, it's disproportianately strong in terms of bringing in outside money. It may never happen, and certainly Thai 'powers that be' don't want pesky foreigners making suggestions - however, one would hope there's already somewhat of an influence on Thai authoritys thinking. Besides Thaivisa, there are letters to the Editor to the two English newspapers. Granted, not all farang see eye to eye on many Thai issues, and that's ok. The gist of what I'm trying to say here, is farang need to keep asserting their opinions - especially if there are certain things that really need to be improved - and particularly if such things directly affect farang. It's ok to speak out - even as a visitor.

There are several improvements (such as equitably sanctioned and non-confusing visa rules) that can be implemented without causing problems for any Thai authorities. As gently and politely as possible, we need to prod them in to enacting fair rules, and doing a better overall job of administrating those rules.

[Badbanker]

Thousands of years Thai history has shown that foreigners are accepted and subsumed into Thai soceity. Remember we had a Greek prime minister for a while not that long back.

What is a Thai person! If you look at the ethnic makeup of Thai's you will see major Chinese, Indian Lao, Khmer and other racial/facial traits. Every strata of Thai society is made up of a multi ethnic people that consider themselves to be Thai. But what is a Thai?

All people that settle in Thailand eventually become Thai! These people are Thai and after a while they do become a part of Thai society and loose their own ethnic identity with a few hardy Southern Asian exceptions.

Some year ago His Majesty The King said at one of his birthday addresses that everyone that speaks Thai, be it clearly or not is Thai. His Majesty said this to counter claims that hill tribe people that did not speak Thai clearly, were not Thai!

When you consider that we are lumbered with a pop star whose family name is Macintyre who is very Thai, I think we have a reasonably polyethnic soceity, that we can all be a part of easy or not.

Learn to become subsumed!

Badbanker

[brahmburgers]

Platitudes aside, being Thai requires having Asian features.

Thousands of years Thai history has shown that foreigners are accepted and subsumed into Thai soceity. Remember we had a Greek prime minister for a while not that long back.

What is a Thai person! If you look at the ethnic makeup of Thai's you will see major Chinese, Indian Lao, Khmer and other racial/facial traits. Every strata of Thai society is made up of a multi ethnic people that consider themselves to be Thai. But what is a Thai?

All people that settle in Thailand eventually become Thai! These people are Thai and after a while they do become a part of Thai society and loose their own ethnic identity with a few hardy Southern Asian exceptions.

Learn to become subsumed!

Badbanker

There are indications everywhere that Thais make serious efforts to maintain 'Thainess' for Thailand - via legislation and also via day-to-day actions such as two-tiered pricing - and attitudes based on a person's face and (secondarily) other physical features.

Sure, Thais are a mix of dozens of regional races, from Tibetan to Malay, to Indian to Jordanian. Yet, except for very rare occurances, you just won't see 'western' or African features on a Thai person. Tiger Woods got honorary citizenship, but that's just window-dressing (he doesn't give a poop about Thailand).

Certainly if you go to any western country, you'll see a wide swath of different ethnic backgrounds with citizenship in those respective countries. To a lesser degree, you'll see that in some Asian countries and Hong Kong. Not so in Thailand. Perennial apologists for Thailand may try to portray that Thailand is open to multi-cultural citizenry, but the facts speak otherwise.

[samran]

Call me an apologist.

I reckon the recent visa rule changes actually liberalised things, especially for those with families. It is now possible, based on house hold income of 40K per month, to get extensions based on marriage. Previously, it was up to the male to provide the income. I mean, how hard really is it to earn 40K per month here between two people? And if you can't, all the law is saying is bluntly "fella, you are better of trying to make a home back in your own country". If the law wasn't trying to tell you, brute economics would quite soon after.

People will complain that they still make it hard for spouses to get work permits. The truth is, even if spouses were eligible to work automatically, I think that there would be very few employers who would take you on unless you spoke, read and could work in a Thai environment anyway, or had a marketable skill which employers wanted that isn't available in the general Thai populous. I've simply seen too many people make it here in LOS...despite all the 'hassles' to be truly convinced about some people bleating on about laws that are hardly more protectionist than anywhere else. It has got to do more with the job market and the skills required here. You have the right skills, you are generally fine.

For me it is about the economics of the situation. Say you are an electrician. Why would you want to work here for a salary that would barely pay your way, when market rates dictate you'd be paid sweet FA. It has really got nothing to do with a work permit being allowed or not. A lawyer...fine well you can't practice legally, but you can act as a consultant...plenty of those around. So you only earn 80K a month as a local hire...you are in and the law doesn't block you. It is your choice to sacrifice potential earnings overseas for the lifestyle benefits of being here.

Paths to integration/acceptance for migrants take at least two generations. Thailand has well established paths to residency, if not full citizenship which admittedly is not easy as it is down solely to the discretion of the Interior Minister. However, the residency which is highly achievable (and transparent to get) gives you a permanency which no-one can take away, and lets your children be born with Thai nationality and all the rights and privileges which come with it.

Still whining? Get over it, you are experiencing the typical 'migrant experience'…you know the same one as the cleaner/dishwasher/waiter/taxi driver back home who is actually a qualified engineer, doctor or IT expert.