22 minutes ago, rixalex said:

You're back in fantasyland, imagining that another referendum is going to solve anything. Of course there will be demands for another vote on the back of a second referedum. Why wouldn't there? There were promises to abide by the decision of the 2016 vote. You want to see those promises broken. Fine. But don't expect the outcome of the second referendum, should it happen, and whichever side wins, be respected either. Cherry picking which referendums get enacted and which don't, won't wash.

Michael port-a-loo summed that up on the weekly politics last Thu in which he stated that a win by remain in a 2nd referendum would see them go out of their way to kill best-of-3 stone dead.

Edited January 21, 20197 yr by evadgib

4 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest if leavers still wanted to leave after a vote ... they are a dying breed, quite literally.

 

 

Morbid Report No.  .. sh1t lost count.

44 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Puzzling, given hardly a week has passed in which HMG in general and his dept in particular has issued a plethora of statements suggesting the opposite.

I haven't posted any in a while for obvious reasons.

exactly...

just name one country that has said they will. LF has said that at 23:00:01Hrs GMT on "exit day" he will have 40 trade deals signed.

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Over a million people IS a very clear result.

Over a million people voted for something that is not on the table. They didn’t vote for a no-deal Brexit, and probably not for a May-deal Brexit. 

 

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Leaving the EU could easily have been implemented by now.

Agree. 

 

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Parliament doesn't want to. 

Understandable, since the only options on the table are not backed by anyone, including the electorate. 

 

54 minutes ago, rixalex said:

There were promises to abide by the decision of the 2016 vote. You want to see those promises broken. Fine.

Boris and the storytellers promised people a pink unicorn. Then Cameron sent a leaflet telling everyone “pink unicorns don’t exist, but my team will get you one should you vote for it, promised”. What did you expect would happen to promises that are impossible to keep, other than that they are broken? 

 

You need to come back from fantasy land and find solutions rather than throwing tantrums and insist on your pink unicorn. 

 

54 minutes ago, rixalex said:

But don't expect the outcome of the second referendum, should it happen, and whichever side wins, be respected either. Cherry picking which referendums get enacted and which don't, won't wash.

If, this time, people vote on actually available options rather than fantasy products, I don’t see why it should not be implemented.

24 minutes ago, Basil B said:

exactly...

just name one country that has said they will. LF has said that at 23:00:01Hrs GMT on "exit day" he will have 40 trade deals signed.

The legal point by which the EU release their strangle hold.

Edited January 21, 20197 yr by evadgib

Further to #544

 

(I had to dig this out for a separate thread)

4 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest if leavers still wanted to leave after a vote ... they are a dying breed, quite literally.

 

 

 

Are they really?

 

Because, and sorry to have to break this to you, young people, including all your EU flag waving chums, get old too. And unless this current generation is going to do something that has never happened before, as they age, their political opinion will shift.

 

Expecting them all to carry their love for the EU from the craddle to the grave, as fantastic as it might be, might be a little unrealistic.

 

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Over a million people voted for something that is not on the table. They didn’t vote for a no-deal Brexit, and probably not for a May-deal Brexit. 

 

People voted to leave, and beyond that, you have no idea what they were voting for. Stop claiming otherwise.

 

The electorate wasn't asked how they wanted to leave. They were asked IF they wanted to. They said "yes". It was then over to the politicians to organise it. They have failed. Not because it couldn't be done. Because they are incompetent fools and because a majority of them don't want us to leave anyway.

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Understandable, since the only options on the table are not backed by anyone, including the electorate. 

What is it about remainers that makes them qualified to speak for the electorate? Please stop with these lies. The only known opinion of the electorate that can be stated as a fact is the result of the referendum. Anything else is speculation.

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Then Cameron sent a leaflet telling everyone “pink unicorns don’t exist, but my team will get you one should you vote for it, promised”. What did you expect would happen to promises that are impossible to keep, other than that they are broken? 

What was the impossible promise that Cameron made on the leaflet?

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

People voted to leave, and beyond that, you have no idea what they were voting for.

Neither do you nor anyone else, and that’s the problem. 

 

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

The electorate wasn't asked how they wanted to leave.

But they were told how they would leave, or at least how they would not leave. And those promises now turn out to be false promises. 

 

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

What is it about remainers that makes them qualified to speak for the electorate? 

I am not a remainer, and I am not speaking for the electorate; in fact, I am saying that no one knows what the electorate wants. But, apparently, Brexiteers feel qualified to speak for the electorate what kind of leave the electorate wants. 

 

59 minutes ago, rixalex said:

What was the impossible promise that Cameron made on the leaflet?

That parliament would implement the ambiguous result of the referendum, not matter what, however possible or impossible. 

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Over a million people voted for something that is not on the table. They didn’t vote for a no-deal Brexit, and probably not for a May-deal Brexit. 

 

Agree. 

 

Understandable, since the only options on the table are not backed by anyone, including the electorate. 

 

Boris and the storytellers promised people a pink unicorn. Then Cameron sent a leaflet telling everyone “pink unicorns don’t exist, but my team will get you one should you vote for it, promised”. What did you expect would happen to promises that are impossible to keep, other than that they are broken? 

 

You need to come back from fantasy land and find solutions rather than throwing tantrums and insist on your pink unicorn. 

 

If, this time, people vote on actually available options rather than fantasy products, I don’t see why it should not be implemented.

Well those in Leeds would disagree with you and suggest you are wrong.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-crisis-leeds-debaters-back-no-deal-exit-and-reject-second-eu-referendum-11613289

 

The pro-Brexit feeling in Leeds - a city that was split almost half and half in the 2016 referendum - appears to have grown, according to the results from a series of Sky News debate polls.

 

Some 54% of the Brexit Crisis: Deal or No Deal? audience said the UK was right to have voted Brexit, in contrast to the national picture painted by the latest Sky Data poll which found 51% thought the UK was wrong to have voted Leave.

 

21 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Neither do you nor anyone else, and that’s the problem.

It's not a problem for me because i am not the one claiming to know. YOU are. All i am claiming to know is that people voted to leave.

3 minutes ago, rixalex said:

It's not a problem for me because i am not the one claiming to know.

It’s clearly a problem for your country, your society, your democracy, your economy, your politics. 

 

3 minutes ago, rixalex said:

All i am claiming to know is that people voted to leave.

They voted to leave with certain expectations in mind, that have been set (or least been heavily influenced) by promises made to them. 

24 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

I am not a remainer, and I am not speaking for the electorate; in fact, I am saying that no one knows what the electorate wants. But, apparently, Brexiteers feel qualified to speak for the electorate what kind of leave the electorate wants. 

If you aren't speaking for the electorate, why did you say,

 

Understandable, since the only options on the table are not backed by anyone, including the electorate. 

 

How was that not speaking for the electorate?

7 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

It’s clearly a problem for your country, your society, your democracy, your economy, your politics. 

 

The problem of claiming you know what people think when you don't, is a problem for YOU, because that's what you are doing. I am not.

10 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

They voted to leave with certain expectations in mind, that have been set (or least been heavily influenced) by promises made to them. 

The only known expectation they had was that the country would leave the EU. That's all that is known. How many more times?

22 minutes ago, rixalex said:

If you aren't speaking for the electorate, why did you say,

 

Understandable, since the only options on the table are not backed by anyone, including the electorate. 

 

How was that not speaking for the electorate?

You are right with this one, so let me correct what I wrote:

 

Understandable, as they must assume the only option left on the table probably doesn’t have much support from the electorate as they were told by the leave campaign they would get the opposite. 

 

 

18 minutes ago, rixalex said:

The problem of claiming you know what people think when you don't, is a problem for YOU, because that's what you are doing. I am not.

Well, it’s your country not mine. Maybe at some point open your eyes and look around you. If that’s the United (!) Kingdom you want...

 

17 minutes ago, rixalex said:

The only known expectation they had was that the country would leave the EU. That's all that is known. How many more times?

Funny how you feel entitled to speak for the electorate now. Or how do you know they had the expectation to leave no matter what including any type of deal and including a no deal? You don’t, so please don’t speak for the electorate. 

This is well worth the price of admission.

Apologies if it has appeared before.

 

 

 

11 hours ago, aright said:

No more dying than the future of the EU which is on a slippery slope being crushed by globalism, overweening EU control,  youth unemployment, mass immigration, the rise of far right wing parties. and political and social disenchantment. Weren't we told Mr Macron was to be the savior of France. All I can see is the French economy and Paris burning and the Southern States without 2 euros to rub together. Germany's doing alright however.

I’ve been reading about the downfall of the EU for years, but nearer to home it looks more likely that we will see a United Ireland followed by an independent Scotland, both in Europe. That’s where Brexit isolationism leads you ... and as for trade deals, did it never occur to Brexiteers that many European countries within the EU do extensive business around the world? The key factor is what you have to sell not whether you are in the EU or not. By the time Corbyn is finished with England and Wales you’ll be worse than Greece.

Edited January 21, 20197 yr by AlexRich

6 hours ago, rixalex said:

 

Are they really?

 

Because, and sorry to have to break this to you, young people, including all your EU flag waving chums, get old too. And unless this current generation is going to do something that has never happened before, as they age, their political opinion will shift.

 

Expecting them all to carry their love for the EU from the craddle to the grave, as fantastic as it might be, might be a little unrealistic.

 

Wishful thinking on your part ... if Brexit turns out a mess you’ll live to see it reversed, it won’t take long.

9 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

I’ve been reading about the downfall of the EU for years, but nearer to home it looks more likely that we will see a United Ireland followed by an independent Scotland, both in Europe. That’s where Brexit isolationism leads you ... and as for trade deals, did it never occur to Brexiteers that many European countries within the EU do extensive business around the world? The key factor is what you have to sell not whether you are in the EU or not. By the time Corbyn is finished with England and Wales you’ll be worse than Greece.

This is all very speculative and interesting but while you criticize the UK for leaving the EU and  your perceived outcome you make no attempt to justify or propose cure for the situation in the EU.  I am a Remainer who balanced what we are moving toward along with what we were leaving behind.

There is no doubt the EU is a colossus but one that is failing on many fronts and which has been in perpetual crisis for the last 8 years: economically with euro problems, politically with a worsening democratic deficit, mass youth unemployment,  and socially with growing social tensions in response to Mrs Merkel's decision to bring the world first to Germany and then to Europe as a whole.

Do you just shrug your shoulders and accept the problems. If not can you justify or give us your cure for the EU's  current condition, as you appear happy to do with UK problems?  I don't hate Europe, I visit it regularly for business and pleasure but a different EU would have produced a different result at the referendum.

 

21 hours ago, nontabury said:

Are you 100% sure,that when Brexit is finally achieved, IF there is shown to be a shortfall in suitable staff to fill those vacancies. That the government will not make provisions to create an exception.

If so I think you are wrong,because then it will be OUR government that will be in control.

 Unless the UK agrees to retain the four freedoms, then EEA nationals will need the same visa to come to the UK and work as the rest of the world.

 

I've posted the link to the general guidance for that visa twice already. However, here is the full, detailed policy guidance: Guidance on application for UK visa as Tier 2 worker, and the relevant part of the actual immigration rules: Immigration Rules part 6A: the points-based system.

 

Now, are you saying that post Brexit the government should

1. remain bound by the four freedoms, giving EEA nationals the same rights as they have now to live and work in the UK, or
2. change the immigration rules for all so that anyone of any nationality can come to the UK to live and work with the same rights EEA nationals currently enjoy?

 

Because, unless the government does one or other of those two, post Brexit EEA nationals who wish to come to the UK to be ancillary workers in the NHS will, like non EEA nationals currently, not get a visa to do so because those jobs simply do not pay the minimum 30 grand a year the rules require and such work is not on the shortage occupation list, see Immigration Rules Appendix K: shortage occupation list, which have lower income requirements.

 

However, although many native Brits are very reluctant to do such jobs as cleaning up elderly hospital patient's vomit and faeces, do you really believe things will get so desperate in NHS ancillary services that the government will add those jobs to the list?

Edited January 21, 20197 yr by 7by7
Typo

21 hours ago, evadgib said:

For a minute there I though you were serious in admitting that you hadn't a clue as to what this implied.

 OK, educate me.

 

What does a script written in 1976 and first broadcast in 1977 have to do with Brexit.

 

Are you trying to say that Messrs. Perry and Croft had the prescience to look that far into the future and that if they did they would believe the same as you?

Edited January 21, 20197 yr by 7by7
Typo

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 OK, educate me.

 

What does a script written in 1976 and first broadcast in 1977 have to do with Brexit.

 

Are you trying to say that Messrs. Perry and Croft had the prescience to look that far into the future and that if they did they would believe the same as you?

As you insist, here goes;

 

Underdogs facing overwhelming odds banded together & found themselves on the winning side as a result of their dogged persistence. In 1940 it was Mainwaring & Co. In the 21st C they have been replaced by hundreds of thousands of like minded people against a rather different opposition but two things remain constant:

 

a) They're again somewhat surprisingly on the winning side &

b  ) The activities of their opposition is having a similar effect on their resolve and numbers. Your side are making this happen and thankfully it's working!????

 

Mainwaring summed it up is his own pompous & fictional way by saying "There are men like these up and down the country; They* don't stand a chance!"

 

(*His enemy; which you'll note I deliberately haven't spelled out in clear in order not to distract from my actual point).

Edited January 21, 20197 yr by evadgib

1 hour ago, aright said:

This is all very speculative and interesting but while you criticize the UK for leaving the EU and  your perceived outcome you make no attempt to justify or propose cure for the situation in the EU.  I am a Remainer who balanced what we are moving toward along with what we were leaving behind.

There is no doubt the EU is a colossus but one that is failing on many fronts and which has been in perpetual crisis for the last 8 years: economically with euro problems, politically with a worsening democratic deficit, mass youth unemployment,  and socially with growing social tensions in response to Mrs Merkel's decision to bring the world first to Germany and then to Europe as a whole.

Do you just shrug your shoulders and accept the problems. If not can you justify or give us your cure for the EU's  current condition, as you appear happy to do with UK problems?  I don't hate Europe, I visit it regularly for business and pleasure but a different EU would have produced a different result at the referendum.

 

Apologies. Correction...…...I am a Leaver

1 hour ago, aright said:

This is all very speculative and interesting but while you criticize the UK for leaving the EU and  your perceived outcome you make no attempt to justify or propose cure for the situation in the EU.  I am a Remainer who balanced what we are moving toward along with what we were leaving behind.

There is no doubt the EU is a colossus but one that is failing on many fronts and which has been in perpetual crisis for the last 8 years: economically with euro problems, politically with a worsening democratic deficit, mass youth unemployment,  and socially with growing social tensions in response to Mrs Merkel's decision to bring the world first to Germany and then to Europe as a whole.

Do you just shrug your shoulders and accept the problems. If not can you justify or give us your cure for the EU's  current condition, as you appear happy to do with UK problems?  I don't hate Europe, I visit it regularly for business and pleasure but a different EU would have produced a different result at the referendum.

 

 

You are not a Remainer, so why claim to be one? There are few countries that got through the financial crisis unscathed, in Europe or anywhere else. Despite issues like youth unemployment I don’t recall any youth movements developing to leave the EU ... since Brexit even the Italians have pulled back from that move, and in Greece it would not be a popular move. Britain was thriving within the EU, there was no good reason to leave ... it was a vote to be poorer, and will most likely lead to the break up of the UK. In years to come it will be viewed as the moment Great Britain voted to end itself. 

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

You are not a Remainer, so why claim to be one? There are few countries that got through the financial crisis unscathed, in Europe or anywhere else. Despite issues like youth unemployment I don’t recall any youth movements developing to leave the EU ... since Brexit even the Italians have pulled back from that move, and in Greece it would not be a popular move. Britain was thriving within the EU, there was no good reason to leave ... it was a vote to be poorer, and will most likely lead to the break up of the UK. In years to come it will be viewed as the moment Great Britain voted to end itself. 

He did, but he's alright now ????

8 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

You are not a Remainer, so why claim to be one? There are few countries that got through the financial crisis unscathed, in Europe or anywhere else. Despite issues like youth unemployment I don’t recall any youth movements developing to leave the EU ... since Brexit even the Italians have pulled back from that move, and in Greece it would not be a popular move. Britain was thriving within the EU, there was no good reason to leave ... it was a vote to be poorer, and will most likely lead to the break up of the UK. In years to come it will be viewed as the moment Great Britain voted to end itself. 

 

 

 

 

If we had adopted the Euro then that would have been the end.

 

It has screwed Greece and Italy but you don't mention that.