Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[vogie]

28 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

As a non-Brit I find it highly fascinating to see a country (that I always respected) making such a mess and inflicting so much damage upon itself. It is baffling and despite the seriousness of the matter, in a certain sense, highly entertaining.

 

Unfortunately the effects of this whole fiasco will not only be felt in the UK but outside of it as well (Ireland, the Netherlands, France, rest of the EU and beyond).

The mere fact that some Brexiteers are amazed about the interest of outsiders in Brexit does indicate how narrow-minded they seem to be. Only focussed on their Brexit goal without much regard of the wider consequences. They really deserve to get what they wished for. Perhaps after a couple of years of Brexit isolation they will start to appreciate the EU more and realize what the consequences of leaving were.

Thanks for your input and I hear what you are saying, but it would appear we are singing from different song sheets. It would appear that many of EU citizens have been conditioned into believing that the EU establishment is perfection personified. Only yesterday I made a comment about Jean Claude Juncker having alcohol problems and he did actually try to pass a law to enable him to smoke in the buildings of Brussels. You don't have to be biased to believe that Juncker has indeed got 'problems' but the said poster defended him to the hilt, why can't the EU citizens see what is their Shangri La is all about. I have my reasons to believe that the EU is trying to brainwash its citizens. "The EU spends £3.8 billion a year on propaganda to win over its citizens" and you can really believe that is money well spent the job they have seem to be doing on some of its citizens. I cannot remember any EU member from the mainland ever saying that there are problems with the EU, the problem is, it is catching to some of our own citizens. When you never admit you have problems, nothing will ever get fixed. Trading with the EU was great, losing our right to make our own decisions not so great.

When you start believing that people who don't think the same as you are wrong, you IMO are making a big mistake.

[sanemax]

50 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

As a non-Brit I find it highly fascinating to see a country (that I always respected) making such a mess and inflicting so much damage upon itself. It is baffling and despite the seriousness of the matter, in a certain sense, highly entertaining.

 

Unfortunately the effects of this whole fiasco will not only be felt in the UK but outside of it as well (Ireland, the Netherlands, France, rest of the EU and beyond).

The mere fact that some Brexiteers are amazed about the interest of outsiders in Brexit does indicate how narrow-minded they seem to be. Only focussed on their Brexit goal without much regard of the wider consequences. They really deserve to get what they wished for. Perhaps after a couple of years of Brexit isolation they will start to appreciate the EU more and realize what the consequences of leaving were.

The consequences remain to be seen though .

[whatsupdoc]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

Thanks for your input and I hear what you are saying, but it would appear we are singing from different song sheets. It would appear that many of EU citizens have been conditioned into believing that the EU establishment is perfection personified. Only yesterday I made a comment about Jean Claude Juncker having alcohol problems and he did actually try to pass a law to enable him to smoke in the buildings of Brussels. You don't have to be biased to believe that Juncker has indeed got 'problems' but the said poster defended him to the hilt, why can't the EU citizens see what is their Shangri La is all about. I have my reasons to believe that the EU is trying to brainwash its citizens. "The EU spends £3.8 billion a year on propaganda to win over its citizens" and you can really believe that is money well spent the job they have seem to be doing on some of its citizens. I cannot remember any EU member from the mainland ever saying that there are problems with the EU, the problem is, it is catching to some of our own citizens. When you never admit you have problems, nothing will ever get fixed. Trading with the EU was great, losing our right to make our own decisions not so great.

When you start believing that people who don't think the same as you are wrong, you IMO are making a big mistake.

As an EU citizen from the mainland I never said that the EU is perfect. Far from it, but I sincerely believe that it is very advantageous to be a member of the EU. Both for the rich countries like Germany, as for the poor ones. In the latter case the standard of living improves and that in turn opens up new markets for countries like Germany. A clear win-win. And obviously European countries need to cooperate and unite to withstand pressure from Russia, China and the USA.

 

I am neutral about Juncker. He should be judged on his role in the EU and not on whether he drinks or not.  At least he does not make political blunders like Boris Johnson does. His term will finish soon so I guess it is not that relevant anyway.

 

Your comments about EU propaganda amaze me. Apparently, it is not very effective otherwise more people would realize the importance of the EU. If they had done a better job in informing the electorate Brexit might never have happened.

No EU member loses its right to make its own decisions. That is nonsense. But of course every country willingly gives up some sovereignty. That is the whole point of forming a union. But the benefits like common standards, borderless trade etc. are huge.

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

43 minutes ago, vogie said:

Thanks for your input and I hear what you are saying, but it would appear we are singing from different song sheets. It would appear that many of EU citizens have been conditioned into believing that the EU establishment is perfection personified. Only yesterday I made a comment about Jean Claude Juncker having alcohol problems and he did actually try to pass a law to enable him to smoke in the buildings of Brussels. You don't have to be biased to believe that Juncker has indeed got 'problems' but the said poster defended him to the hilt, why can't the EU citizens see what is their Shangri La is all about. I have my reasons to believe that the EU is trying to brainwash its citizens. "The EU spends £3.8 billion a year on propaganda to win over its citizens" and you can really believe that is money well spent the job they have seem to be doing on some of its citizens. I cannot remember any EU member from the mainland ever saying that there are problems with the EU, the problem is, it is catching to some of our own citizens. When you never admit you have problems, nothing will ever get fixed. Trading with the EU was great, losing our right to make our own decisions not so great.

When you start believing that people who don't think the same as you are wrong, you IMO are making a big mistake.

You are wrong with your opinion about mainland Europeans. Everyone knows perfection doesn’t exist. But most people think in results rather than principles, and therefore don’t see the point in destroying our economies, freedom and rights over the drinking habits of some politician.

[vogie]

11 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

As an EU citizen from the mainland I never said that the EU is perfect. Far from it, but I sincerely believe that it is very advantageous to be a member of the EU. Both for the rich countries like Germany, as for the poor ones. In the latter case the standard of living improves and that in turn opens up new markets for countries like Germany. A clear win-win. And obviously European countries need to cooperate and unite to withstand pressure from Russia, China and the USA.

 

I am neutral about Juncker. He should be judged on his role in the EU and not on whether he drinks or not.  At least he does not make political blunders like Boris Johnson does. His term will finish soon so I guess it is not that relevant anyway.

 

Your comments about EU propaganda amaze me. Apparently, it is not very effective otherwise more people would realize the importance of the EU. If they had done a better job in informing the electorate Brexit might never have happened.

No EU member loses its right to make its own decisions. That is nonsense. But of course every country willingly gives up some sovereignty. That is the whole point of forming a union. But the benefits like common standards, borderless trade etc. are huge.

 

 

It is a response I totally expected, you are defending Juncker for doing his job whilst he is drunk, most people in Europe if they turned up drunk like him they would be sacked, do you think he deserves special privileges, the man is a disgrace. It's no excuse saying he is leaving in November, he has been in that job for 6 years.

 

But as I said we from the UK (most of us anyway) do not share your beliefs in the mystical eutopia they call the EU. We both appear to have different ideals and beliefs what is best for our country. We both are seeking different goals I guess, but when we constantly get posts saying how misguided and illinformed we are, especially when accompanied by snide remarks from some members (not you), the veil starts to slip a bit.

[welovesundaysatspace]

23 minutes ago, vogie said:

 most people in Europe if they turned up drunk like him they would be sacked

That totally depends on how valuable you are to the result. Wanna know how many times I violated code of conduct nonsense and was doing my own thing without anyone saying a word, simply because it would be a nightmare to replace me? As I said, people care about results, not about principles. 

 

 

[whatsupdoc]

21 minutes ago, vogie said:

It is a response I totally expected, you are defending Juncker for doing his job whilst he is drunk, most people in Europe if they turned up drunk like him they would be sacked, do you think he deserves special privileges, the man is a disgrace. It's no excuse saying he is leaving in November, he has been in that job for 6 years.

 

Davis, who hardly bothered to show up in Brussels, should have been sacked, Boris Johnson made many blunders for which he should have been sacked and May should have resigned after the biggest defeat in UK parliamentary history. What are their special privileges? 

 

Juncker did get a second term. Maybe it was for political reasons, maybe it is not as bad as you suggest or maybe he actually did his job quite well. I do not know and frankly, do not care that much. I believe his political power is not that big so why bother.

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If he or anyone else has evidence that people posting are not entitled to, let’s be having it.

 

If he or anyone else has evidence of the nationality of other posters, let’s quit with the passive suggestions grow a set and produce the evidence.

 

As for flagging things to moderators, I tend to use the report button.

——-

 

Of course the underlying problem is evadgib wishes to deny the right of others to post in threads based on what he believes (despite no evidence) is their nationality.

 

We should expect such behavior from small minded nationalists.

I don’t think he’s suggesting that none Brits should be denied the right to comment on these Brexit threads. What he’s doing, is pointing out, how large a % of remoaners,are in fact non Brits, who perhaps prefer, that the U.K continues to make charitable contributions to the unelected E.U commissioners.

 Perhaps a good compromise, would be for all None Brits, to state that they are in fact none Brits when they post.555

 

 

[vogie]

Just now, whatsupdoc said:

Davis, who hardly bothered to show up in Brussels, should have been sacked, Boris Johnson made many blunders for which he should have been sacked and May should have resigned after the biggest defeat in UK parliamentary history. What are their special privileges? 

 

Juncker did get a second term. Maybe it was for political reasons, maybe it is not as bad as you suggest or maybe he actually did his job quite well. I do not know and frankly, do not care that much. I believe his political power is not that big so why bother.

YeeHaa, when you cannot answer my post, deflect. Davis is not running one of the most positions in Europe, it is Juncker, our leader, do you think the way he treats women is disrespectfull too. Why can't you just admit that it is not satisfactory for someone like him to have been put in charge of such a big organisation.

 

Some posters on here are like a big stick of Blackpool rock, but instead of having Blackpool running through the centre, the have EU.☺️

[whatsupdoc]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

YeeHaa, when you cannot answer my post, deflect. Davis is not running one of the most positions in Europe, it is Juncker, our leader, do you think the way he treats women is disrespectfull too. Why can't you just admit that it is not satisfactory for someone like him to have been put in charge of such a big organisation.

 

Some posters on here are like a big stick of Blackpool rock, but instead of having Blackpool running through the centre, the have EU.☺️

Sorry, but I did answer your post and did not deflect. That the reply is not to your satisfaction is not my problem.

Have a bit of respect for other posters.

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Thanks for your input and I hear what you are saying, but it would appear we are singing from different song sheets. It would appear that many of EU citizens have been conditioned into believing that the EU establishment is perfection personified. Only yesterday I made a comment about Jean Claude Juncker having alcohol problems and he did actually try to pass a law to enable him to smoke in the buildings of Brussels. You don't have to be biased to believe that Juncker has indeed got 'problems' but the said poster defended him to the hilt, why can't the EU citizens see what is their Shangri La is all about. I have my reasons to believe that the EU is trying to brainwash its citizens. "The EU spends £3.8 billion a year on propaganda to win over its citizens" and you can really believe that is money well spent the job they have seem to be doing on some of its citizens. I cannot remember any EU member from the mainland ever saying that there are problems with the EU, the problem is, it is catching to some of our own citizens. When you never admit you have problems, nothing will ever get fixed. Trading with the EU was great, losing our right to make our own decisions not so great.

When you start believing that people who don't think the same as you are wrong, you IMO are making a big mistake.

Million of E.u citizens are increasingly disillusioned with the E.u.

Yet for some strange reason, the British media prefer not to publishes the fact. Cannot possibly think why????????????

 

[vogie]

Just now, whatsupdoc said:

Sorry, but I did answer your post and did not deflect. That the reply is not to your satisfaction is not my problem.

Have a bit of respect for other posters.

You do not care how Juncker does his job, I find that extraodinary. Maybe that is why we don't think the same, most people that observes Juncker would say he is not showing a good example to the world, but you don't care. Have a good day.

[welovesundaysatspace]

35 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Million of E.u citizens are increasingly disillusioned with the E.u.

Yet for some strange reason, the British media prefer not to publishes the fact. Cannot possibly think why????????????

 

For some strange reason, some dude on a Thailand forum knows a “fact” about a “Million of E.u. citizens” that not even the British media knows. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

36 minutes ago, vogie said:

You do not care how Juncker does his job, I find that extraodinary.

You didn’t talk about how he does his job. You speculated about his drinking habits. 

 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

You didn’t talk about how he does his job. You speculated about his drinking habits. 

 

I will try that excuse the next time the police pull me up in my car for drink driving, I'll say don't worry how much I've had to drink, just worry about how I'm driving. ????????????????????????????????????????

[tebee]

Brexiters are their own worst enemies 

 

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/brexiteers-are-destroying-their-own-dream/

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

I will try that excuse the next time the police pull me up in my car for drink driving, I'll say don't worry how much I've had to drink, just worry about how I'm driving. ????????????????????????????????????????

He wasn’t pulled up by police for drink driving. 

[vogie]

Just now, welovesundaysatspace said:

He wasn’t pulled up by police for drink driving. 

No you're correct, he was drunk in charge of 28 countries, jeez.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

That totally depends on how valuable you are to the result. Wanna know how many times I violated code of conduct nonsense and was doing my own thing without anyone saying a word, simply because it would be a nightmare to replace me? As I said, people care about results, not about principles. 

 

 

Know what you mean, as I too violated 'code of conduct' rules a few times when working.  I still go cold thinking about how badly I behaved on a few occasions!

 

Nonetheless, it does appear that Juncker is an alcoholic - and not even a 'functioning' alcoholic....

 

He should have been sacked a long time ago IMO.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

I don’t think he’s suggesting that none Brits should be denied the right to comment on these Brexit threads. What he’s doing, is pointing out, how large a % of remoaners,are in fact non Brits, who perhaps prefer, that the U.K continues to make charitable contributions to the unelected E.U commissioners.

 Perhaps a good compromise, would be for all None Brits, to state that they are in fact none Brits when they post.555

 

 

"I don’t think he’s suggesting that none Brits should be denied the right to comment on these Brexit threads. What he’s doing, is pointing out, how large a % of remoaners,are in fact non Brits, who perhaps prefer, that the U.K continues to make charitable contributions to the unelected E.U commissioners."

 

Agree entirely - but personally, I could do without the 'slogans'/cartoons etc.

[tebee]

 

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

Probably better to start a new thread (in the Home Forum) section re. the care of the elderly in NHS hospitals?

 

I don't believe for one minute that those in the 'elderly' wards are constantly complaining about "the black ones".

 

A neighbour (who before retiring was a nurse) ended up in a 'geriatric' ward - and she was too sick (i.e not a dementia/alzheimer victim - just genuinely ill, but put in the geriatric ward as a result of her age) to complain about ANYTHING.....  My hubby and I on the other hand, both promised each other that we'd never allow each other to end up in a geriatric ward as a result of visiting her and seeing the lack of care provided etc. 

[tebee]

 

[AlexRich]

5 hours ago, rixalex said:

I don't think it takes too much mental strain to work out that by third party he was referring to people who are not British.

 

He didn't say that certain people were not entitled to post comments, so not sure why you have implied otherwise, unless you are trying to flag something up for the moderators.

 

He was simply posing the question as to why non British people might feel so strongly about Britain remaining in the EU.

 

You should try being a little less sensitive in your responses.

So non-US people have no right to comment on US politics and Trump? Climate change denial, for example, has implications for everyone.

 

Who are are these non British anyway? If they are European then they will be affected by Brexit also, albeit to a lesser extent, so have some skin in the game.

 

Anyone with a view on the topic is entitled to post. 

[AlexRich]

22 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Probably better to start a new thread (in the Home Forum) section re. the care of the elderly in NHS hospitals?

 

I don't believe for one minute that those in the 'elderly' wards are constantly complaining about "the black ones".

 

A neighbour (who before retiring was a nurse) ended up in a 'geriatric' ward - and she was too sick (i.e not a dementia/alzheimer victim - just genuinely ill, but put in the geriatric ward as a result of her age) to complain about ANYTHING.....  My hubby and I on the other hand, both promised each other that we'd never allow each other to end up in a geriatric ward as a result of visiting her and seeing the lack of care provided etc. 

How much better will that care be when the NHS is denied overseas workers?

[luckyluke]

35 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

it does appear that Juncker is an alcoholic

If true, he is, apparently, not the only one in history,

which of course is not an excuse, only a sad fact :

 

https://proof.media/10-famous-politicians-who-were-alcoholics

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

54 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Nonetheless, it does appear that Juncker is an alcoholic - and not even a 'functioning' alcoholic....

 

He should have been sacked a long time ago IMO.

I think most mainland Europeans don’t really notice or care about EU politicians. Juncker et al are not Merkel or Macron or Trump; nobody feels they are being represented by them. The EU is what it is, a club, a trading bloc, a regulator. It is a machine running in the background; as long as the machine keeps running well, no one really cares who’s pushing the buttons. 

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

It is a response I totally expected, you are defending Juncker for doing his job whilst he is drunk, most people in Europe if they turned up drunk like him they would be sacked, do you think he deserves special privileges, the man is a disgrace. It's no excuse saying he is leaving in November, he has been in that job for 6 years.

 

But as I said we from the UK (most of us anyway) do not share your beliefs in the mystical eutopia they call the EU. We both appear to have different ideals and beliefs what is best for our country. We both are seeking different goals I guess, but when we constantly get posts saying how misguided and illinformed we are, especially when accompanied by snide remarks from some members (not you), the veil starts to slip a bit.

The will of the people in 2019 is to remain. You are now in the minority, as you might well find out should this fiasco result in a second vote. And ironically the younger generations, who will have to live with Brexit, are against it. Every time I see a vox pop of leavers they are invariably old age pensioners ... who will gain little from Brexit, but are happy for the younger generation to lose a great deal. Time for those with a vested interest in the long term future of the country to take back control from those who do not.

[vogie]

57 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

This is another tweet from Bakehouse cottage, Why post such garbage.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2019 by vogie

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

The will of the people in 2019 is to remain. You are now in the minority, as you might well find out should this fiasco result in a second vote. And ironically the younger generations, who will have to live with Brexit, are against it. Every time I see a vox pop of leavers they are invariably old age pensioners ... who will gain little from Brexit, but are happy for the younger generation to lose a great deal. Time for those with a vested interest in the long term future of the country to take back control from those who do not.

That's strange, everytime I see the Young on the tv they are in favour of leaving, the ones that are not, are more interested in the size of Kim Kardashians bottom.