Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[bomber]

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Hahaha! States he has no problem with Europe immigration, just wants to stop Muslims! Why Brexit then???

 

C- or D????

 

Embarrassing

the guy needs to know these folks risk their lives to get here for the benefits given to them by the UK govt,benefits they dont get in the rest of europe hence they take the risk,these benefits were approved by our govt and not brussels or our masters,they have more sense than to do that,perhaps we could put a figure on the side of a double decker bus,you can also add the UK overseas aid budget which is even stupider than brexit,again another crazy decision taken by our wonderful sovereign govt

[damascase]

4 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Our best recruiting Sgts are the Remain camp; Thank you & please keep it up ????

 

All happily lining up to jump off the cliff?

[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I agree the EU governs a larger population than the UK, and the UK has shown distinct weakness so far when it comes to negotiations.  When you say "bigger" are you suggesting the EU would somehow be able to force us to have that border in the Irish Sea, because they are bigger than us? 

They would just do it unless RI complied. CU is the obvious solution. Please explain why to the Brexiters for me!

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 It seems to me that you don't really understand what federalism means.

 

The basic definition of federalism is a form of government in which there is a division of powers between two levels of government of equal status. 

 

Basically, in a federal system a central government has certain responsibilities and powers, whilst the governments of individual member states have other responsibilities and powers. Who has what responsibilities and powers is determined when the federation is first negotiated and enshrined in the agreement, or constitution, setting up the federation. Though, if the original written agreement or constitution allows, these responsibilities and powers can be moved between the central power and the individual member states as time goes on with the agreement of the member states.

 

The USA is a federal system where each individual state can make laws for that state alone but is subservient to the federal government in other areas. The federal government alone is responsible for things such as foreign policy, defence etc.

 

But a federation does not have to follow that model, and I have seen nothing, except scare stories and half truths, to justify assumptions that the EU is heading toward, as you put it, a US of E. 

Thank you for googling the definition of federation. 

So where do you see the direction of travel for the EU? Do you see the EU a) looking for further integration and harmonisation across legal, fiscal and defence policy, or b) staying as it is, or c) handing back more powers to individual nations? 

[nauseus]

59 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Yes, you said "all this."

 

But you said it in response to one, and only one, specific.

 

The post in question:

Nothing about "avoiding the EU general," just avoiding a hard border between the UK and RoI.

 

In other words; you suggested that the RoI follow the UK like a meek lap dog!

Meek lap dog are your words, not mine. 

[evadgib]

5 minutes ago, damascase said:

All happily lining up to jump off the cliff?

Yep, That'll do. Keep going! ????

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Our best recruiting Sgts are the Remain camp; Thank you & please keep it up ????

 

I think you will find that we are the officers. We know that 74k is fake news 0.7M is far more accurate.

 

The problem,we now know, is that Brexiters have no idea what they want. Frey Bentos for tea probably!

[bomber]

10 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

 

 

Your posts indicate that you think your vote should count more than anyone else, you are incorrect every person in the UK that is eligible to vote their vote has the same value as everyone else

I am sure if Grouse perfect world he wouldn't let the demographic C- and D classes vote, he would accept them paying taxes but wouldn't allow them a vote 

Back in 1998 Airbus was talking about moving wing production to China

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-may-move-wing-production-to-china-43640/

and wasn't it Airbus that said they would leave the UK if the UK didn't join the Euro

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6610168/sun-says-airbus-brexit-demands/

As to your comments Grouse and bomber about what you think i understand or don't understand

In the words of Tony Blair am i bovvered

 

 

fact is airbus didnt move,i worked a few years for a company around 2005 that made parts for the wings for AB and their was constant rumours of work going elsewhere,these companies are always looking at alternatives often only half heart'd,euro or pounds wouldnt make much difference anyway,but brexit is a total different ball game to whatever has gone on before.

[evadgib]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The problem,we now know, is that Brexiters have no idea what they want.

I can help there. The answer is 'OUT!'

(Think of Dickie Bird)

[7by7]

9 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Our best recruiting Sgts are the Remain camp; Thank you & please keep it up ????

 

 If you are going to use Parliamentary petitions as an expression of the people's will; consider the following.

 

As I type, 96,388 people have signed that petition with just 7 days to go before it closes after 6 months.

 

Meanwhile, 133,996 people signed this petition calling for another referendum. Note that petition still has until 26th May to run (all petitions run for 6 months).

 

Yours hasn't even reached 100,000 needed for it to be discussed in Parliament yet; wonder if it will get to that figure in the 7 days it has left to run.

[bannork]

5 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

through

ta Grouse, this is very good stuff, you may have a Belhaven and a Monkey Shoulder, it's on me

 

would you know if the manuscript is available?

I'd love to have that and read it in peace and quiet

 

particularly liked his bits on services trade, WTO trading and the Backstop

 

Here are his 4 points at the end:

1. Article 50 can probably work as an exit route to leave the EU if the country is united and clear sighted about what it wants to gain and is prepared to lose. The UK is neither of these, and risks social and national conflict and a possible break-up of the UK over the next 10 years.

b. We need a political discourse that recognises there is no single perfect answer to either being in or out the EU.

c. We need a political process so the public can see the choices and huge trade-offs ahead.

 

2.  We have to understand how the EU works and negotiates because we will have to negotiate on everything from fish to financial services. We cannot escape these negotiations.

 

3.  The baselines in negotiations matter.. If you start from the baseline of being a third country with no preferences, others will ensure the UK pays a heavy price for every step it takes back to that world it used to inhabit. Other countries have interests and will not give us deals without concessions from us on other goods.

 

4. Extension of Article 50 is not a given by the EU. No signs of progression in the national debate on Brexit.

[CG1 Blue]

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

They would just do it unless RI complied. CU is the obvious solution. Please explain why to the Brexiters for me!

They would just do it - the EU would just implement a border in the Irish Sea?  Wouldn't that require the UK to agree to it, given that NI is part of the UK?  

[bomber]

21 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

 

 

Your posts indicate that you think your vote should count more than anyone else, you are incorrect every person in the UK that is eligible to vote their vote has the same value as everyone else

I am sure if Grouse perfect world he wouldn't let the demographic C- and D classes vote, he would accept them paying taxes but wouldn't allow them a vote 

Back in 1998 Airbus was talking about moving wing production to China

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-may-move-wing-production-to-china-43640/

and wasn't it Airbus that said they would leave the UK if the UK didn't join the Euro

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6610168/sun-says-airbus-brexit-demands/

As to your comments Grouse and bomber about what you think i understand or don't understand

In the words of Tony Blair am i bovvered

 

 

just read the Sun article,had to laff when it said 27 nations depend on us,then it says "why wont they (EU) talk trade" ????    i thought leave meant leave and no deals or SM and CU,its clearer than even their is no clear version of leave

[bomber]

6 minutes ago, evadgib said:

I can help there. The answer is 'OUT!'

(Think of Dickie Bird)

but the sun says the EU wont talk trade,the suns version must be different to yours.

[evadgib]

5 minutes ago, bomber said:

but the sun says the EU wont talk trade,the suns version must be different to yours.

Sun?

 

[Loiner]

hi Bomber, this is not your issue. I ignored the original poster
 
Heritage is an extreme American right wing think tank.
 
Several issues raised fail fact checker
 
File under B.S.
 
Here is one example proving the statements are fake
 
https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/euro-area/euro/eu-countries-and-euro/united-kingdom-and-euro_en
 
Brexit is an important and complex issue. If I notice any further fake news from that poster, I will complain.

Grouse is an intelligent bloke who really understands what it’s all about.
- Fake News.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I think you will find that we are the officers. We know that 74k is fake news 0.7M is far more accurate.

 

The problem,we now know, is that Brexiters have no idea what they want. Frey Bentos for tea probably!

The problem is that you assume to know that Brexiteers don't know what they want. This is just the same old condescending gripe. Brexiteers want to keep their country intact as a nation and stop Britain's further absorption into the EU "superstate" cesspit, which would eventually erase our national identity forever. It is a simple objective, but as you keep inferring, Brexiteers are rather simple folk. Right?

[vinny41]

18 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 If you are going to use Parliamentary petitions as an expression of the people's will; consider the following.

 

As I type, 96,388 people have signed that petition with just 7 days to go before it closes after 6 months.

 

Meanwhile, 133,996 people signed this petition calling for another referendum. Note that petition still has until 26th May to run (all petitions run for 6 months).

 

Yours hasn't even reached 100,000 needed for it to be discussed in Parliament yet; wonder if it will get to that figure in the 7 days it has left to run.

You forgot to mention this petition which ends 17th April 2019

Leave the EU without a deal in March 2019.

Currently 344,264 people have signed this petition

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963

 

[7by7]

46 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

 

Quote

 

 

 

 

Note he said "without putting back in place a border". So as I said, no border. 

There are already checks and controls, and they will presumably add a few more to deal with the wider customs checks. But crucially no border. 

 He is fighting shy of calling it a border, for obvious reasons.

 

But tell us; what is a place between two different countries where people and goods passing through are subject to passport, visa, customs etc. checks if it is not a border?

 

BTW, you keep saying that there are already checks and controls. What checks and controls?

 

I am aware that the Garda National Immigration Bureau do occasionally carry out random checks on people crossing north to south to see if they have the proper paperwork (passport or national ID card for EEA citizens, passport and any required visa for others) but UK Border Force do not check people crossing south to north.

 

I am not aware of any customs checks between the UK and RoI.

 

Of course checks are carried out on people and goods arriving in the Republic by sea or air from outside the EEA.

 

But not, in my experience at least, on people arriving by ferry from the UK. At least, every time I've driven off the Fishguard to Rosslare ferry I've never been stopped nor seen anyone else stopped; and that includes articulated lorries as well as cars. I have no personal experience of arriving in the Republic by air; difficult to get the car onto a scheduled flight!

 

I'm always willing to be corrected if I have matters of fact incorrect; so tell us, apart from the random checks I mentioned above, where and by whom are checks on people and goods travelling between the UK and RoI already being carried out and what are those checks checking?

 

 

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, Loiner said:

https://www.heritage.org/europe/report/the-eu-lisbon-treaty-gordon-brown-surrenders-britains-sovereignty

Here it is folks, the LISBON TREATY, a summary:

Signed by Gordon Brown after reneging on a promise of a UK referendum.

We must Leave on March 29 or become a slave state.

* No abstentions (veto)
* Countries become states
* Euro becomes compulsory 2022
* London Stock Exchange moves to Frankfurt
* EU & ECJ become supreme
* No separate trade deals/quotas
* Submit all fishing controls
* Submit oil and gas rights
* Schengen open borders by 2022
* Submit planning legislation
* Submit armed forces incl nuclear
* Submit taxation policy
* Submit laws & legal procedures
* Submit divest our Commonwealth and offshore territories
* Submits all national &
* international policies
* Submit UK nation status
* Submit Space research
* Submit aviation & marine control
* We lose our rebate by 2020


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

Thanks for posting. This list is pretty much as I understand it from what I've read over the last few years and why we should get out now. But I'm sure the Remainers will either deny or ignore this.

[metisdead]

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[7by7]

40 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Thank you for googling the definition of federation.  

Most of what I wrote I remembered form my 'O' levels; but I admit to using Google to check my facts; and why not? 

 

Fact checking is something a lot of posters here would be wise to start doing!

43 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

So where do you see the direction of travel for the EU? Do you see the EU a) looking for further integration and harmonisation across legal, fiscal and defence policy, or b) staying as it is, or c) handing back more powers to individual nations?

I see the EU continuing to evolve pretty much along the lines it has so far.

 

Harmonising trade and other pan European matters which affect all members, while leaving foreign policy and other matters up to the individual member state affected by those matters.

 

Security? Well, we already have Europol; and what is wrong with that? Surely cross border police co-operation can only be a good thing. If you're against Europol, you must be against Interpol as well.

 

Whilst I don't believe that an actual EU army will ever happen, I see nothing wrong in a military alliance of EU members along the lines of NATO.

 

I could go on, but it's quicker to say what i don't see the EU becoming. Unlike the scaremongers of organisations like Leave.EU, I do not see it becoming a dictatorship run by unelected officials. But I don't believe the people behind Leave.EU and similar organisations believe that either; despite what they have their minions say.

[7by7]

52 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Meek lap dog are your words, not mine. 

You can try and weasel out of what you originally said as much as you like; it's not the first time you've posted in haste only make feeble justifications or denials of what you posted later.

 

End of.

[Loiner]

51 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 If you are going to use Parliamentary petitions as an expression of the people's will; consider the following.

 

As I type, 96,388 people have signed that petition with just 7 days to go before it closes after 6 months.

 

Meanwhile, 133,996 people signed this petition calling for another referendum. Note that petition still has until 26th May to run (all petitions run for 6 months).

 

Yours hasn't even reached 100,000 needed for it to be discussed in Parliament yet; wonder if it will get to that figure in the 7 days it has left to run.

What it is with you people? Happy to quotes numbers from obscure websites, if they suit your purpose, but won't accept the result of the biggest referendum the country has ever seen.

You only sing when your winning?

[7by7]

24 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

You forgot to mention this petition which ends 17th April 2019

Leave the EU without a deal in March 2019.

Currently 344,264 people have signed this petition

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963

 

 Fair enough, though I was commenting on the one much trumpeted by Leave.EU. 

 

There are many Brexit petitions. Such as:

 

'Stop Brexit' which has 110,709 signatures so far and runs until 10th February. 

 

Grant a People's Vote if Parliament rejects the EU Withdrawal Agreement with 134,002 signatories so far and which runs until 26th May.

 

Though yours is the only pro Brexit one i have been able to find which has over the mini,mum 100,00 signatures required for a debate in Parliament. Not to say that others haven't, just that I've not found them.

 

It would be mildly interesting to look at all the pro Brexit and anti Brexit and second referendum petitions, still running and closed, to try and work out which has the most support in total; but I haven't the time.

 

[CG1 Blue]

39 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 He is fighting shy of calling it a border, for obvious reasons.

 

But tell us; what is a place between two different countries where people and goods passing through are subject to passport, visa, customs etc. checks if it is not a border?

 

BTW, you keep saying that there are already checks and controls. What checks and controls?

 

I am aware that the Garda National Immigration Bureau do occasionally carry out random checks on people crossing north to south to see if they have the proper paperwork (passport or national ID card for EEA citizens, passport and any required visa for others) but UK Border Force do not check people crossing south to north.

 

I am not aware of any customs checks between the UK and RoI.

 

Of course checks are carried out on people and goods arriving in the Republic by sea or air from outside the EEA.

 

But not, in my experience at least, on people arriving by ferry from the UK. At least, every time I've driven off the Fishguard to Rosslare ferry I've never been stopped nor seen anyone else stopped; and that includes articulated lorries as well as cars. I have no personal experience of arriving in the Republic by air; difficult to get the car onto a scheduled flight!

 

I'm always willing to be corrected if I have matters of fact incorrect; so tell us, apart from the random checks I mentioned above, where and by whom are checks on people and goods travelling between the UK and RoI already being carried out and what are those checks checking?

 

 

I've explained the existing checks in previous posts.  I have to go out now so I don't have time to dig the info out again.  But I'll be back! 

[7by7]

26 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Thanks for posting. This list is pretty much as I understand it from what I've read over the last few years and why we should get out now. But I'm sure the Remainers will either deny or ignore this.

Ignore? No.

 

Correct because the list is not only unattributed, it's also fake? Already done so.

 

 

[7by7]

11 minutes ago, Loiner said:

What it is with you people? Happy to quotes numbers from obscure websites, if they suit your purpose, but won't accept the result of the biggest referendum the country has ever seen.

You only sing when your winning?

The Parliamentary petitions site may be obscure to you; but it isn't to most of us British citizens living in the UK!

 

How come you have never made the same comment when Brexiteers quote from sites such as Leave.EU; especially when that quote was about, and contained a link to, a petition on the Parliamentary petitions site! 

 

And what about linking to a very obscure, outside the USA at least, website and making a list of false facts as if they had appeared on that site?

[7by7]

7 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I've explained the existing checks in previous posts.  I have to go out now so I don't have time to dig the info out again.  But I'll be back! 

I look forward to your info; with sources I trust.

[evadgib]

9 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

I look forward to your info; with sources I trust.

This will hit 100k within the hour:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/224908