Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[Loiner]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

The Parliamentary petitions site may be obscure to you; but it isn't to most of us British citizens living in the UK!

 

How come you have never made the same comment when Brexiteers quote from sites such as Leave.EU; especially when that quote was about, and contained a link to, a petition on the Parliamentary petitions site! 

 

And what about linking to a very obscure, outside the USA at least, website and making a list of false facts as if they had appeared on that site?

Not obscure to me - I sign all the ones I can about Brexit and other good stuff. But they are not widely promoted or the government would have to raise far too many issues, so their quite obscure to many.

 

I root around quite a lot of t'interweb for my info. What you deem to be extreme right may not necessarily be so, because its not you who decides where the political median actually sits. 

 

Yes even the USA has a realistic view on the EU and what ills would befall us if we were to Remain. Sorry if the link isn't verbatim but I thought that was the source. Maybe I made my list after reading The Guardian? 

[bomber]

7 hours ago, Loiner said:

https://www.heritage.org/europe/report/the-eu-lisbon-treaty-gordon-brown-surrenders-britains-sovereignty

Here it is folks, the LISBON TREATY, a summary:

Signed by Gordon Brown after reneging on a promise of a UK referendum.

We must Leave on March 29 or become a slave state.

* No abstentions (veto)
* Countries become states
* Euro becomes compulsory 2022
* London Stock Exchange moves to Frankfurt
* EU & ECJ become supreme
* No separate trade deals/quotas
* Submit all fishing controls
* Submit oil and gas rights
* Schengen open borders by 2022
* Submit planning legislation
* Submit armed forces incl nuclear
* Submit taxation policy
* Submit laws & legal procedures
* Submit divest our Commonwealth and offshore territories
* Submits all national &
* international policies
* Submit UK nation status
* Submit Space research
* Submit aviation & marine control
* We lose our rebate by 2020


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it state's countries become state's,iam sure the UK would still be the UK,as scotland,wales and NI are state's/countries/nations within the UK,so thats zilch to worry about.LSE moving to frankfurt wont affect too many,as wont space research or marine control,taxation i would highly doubt could be controlled from any other nation,armed forces would still be british and even today are used mostly alongside NATO/US armies,so no big deal,our commonwealth and off shore territories wont be affected as they are 95% outside europe let alone the EU,having the € could well be a good thing if we enter at a good rate like we should of years ago,todays rate is pap thanks to breit,many of our laws want changing so thats a winner,no money for alcoholics and druggies,oversea's aid and asylum seekers etc,

[Loiner]

13 minutes ago, bomber said:

it state's countries become state's,iam sure the UK would still be the UK,as scotland,wales and NI are state's/countries/nations within the UK,so thats zilch to worry about.LSE moving to frankfurt wont affect too many,as wont space research or marine control,taxation i would highly doubt could be controlled from any other nation,armed forces would still be british and even today are used mostly alongside NATO/US armies,so no big deal,our commonwealth and off shore territories wont be affected as they are 95% outside europe let alone the EU,having the € could well be a good thing if we enter at a good rate like we should of years ago,todays rate is pap thanks to breit,many of our laws want changing so thats a winner,no money for alcoholics and druggies,oversea's aid and asylum seekers etc,

Always look on the bright side of life.

Which one are you?

[bomber]

20 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Always look on the bright side of life.

Which one are you?

this is me in my patriotic days.

[elliss]

33 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Always look on the bright side of life.

Which one are you?

          The  one on the rhs , is  DC,   alongside Tony Bliar {ex new labour],  

            Bojo all in white , with his new  hair style , and lower down Nigela F, still hanging on in there.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, evadgib said:

I can help there. The answer is 'OUT!'

(Think of Dickie Bird)

Think about it 

 

You don't want to be in the EU

 

What specifically do you want?

 

Maybe a nice window?

[melvinmelvin]

28 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Think about it 

 

You don't want to be in the EU

 

What specifically do you want?

 

Maybe a nice window?

 

Woman in the window, very old and very famous film noir - he would enjoy that

 

[7by7]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

This will hit 100k within the hour:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/224908

 Still at 98,421 with 7 days to go. Might just scrape through to 100,000 by the deadline.

 

Of course, we all know that these petitions are really just a sop to the electorate; whatever they are about. I have not heard of a single one having any effect; whatever it was about.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

Not obscure to me - I sign all the ones I can about Brexit and other good stuff. But they are not widely promoted or the government would have to raise far too many issues, so their quite obscure to many.

Changed your tune significantly since you thought we were only talking about anti Brexit petitions!

2 hours ago, Loiner said:

What it is with you people? Happy to quotes numbers from obscure websites, if they suit your purpose,

 

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

I root around quite a lot of t'interweb for my info. What you deem to be extreme right may not necessarily be so, because its not you who decides where the political median actually sits. 

Did I say The Heritage Foundation was extreme right? No

 

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

Yes even the USA has a realistic view on the EU and what ills would befall us if we were to Remain.

No, one source you found has a view you share. Others may as well, but there are just as many who have the opposite view.

 

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

Sorry if the link isn't verbatim but I thought that was the source. Maybe I made my list after reading The Guardian? 

You mean your simply wrote a list of what you think without checking it came from the source you thought it did?

 

Sorry, I don't believe that at all.

 

As has been shown, your list has so little bearing on the truth as to be absolutely worthless. You obviously made it up, there is no source.

 

If your list were on paper it wouldn't even be worth cutting into squares, punching a hole in one corner, threading a piece of string through that hole and sending to your friends at Heritage labelled "Bogs; for use in!"

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 He is fighting shy of calling it a border, for obvious reasons.

 

But tell us; what is a place between two different countries where people and goods passing through are subject to passport, visa, customs etc. checks if it is not a border?

 

BTW, you keep saying that there are already checks and controls. What checks and controls?

 

I am aware that the Garda National Immigration Bureau do occasionally carry out random checks on people crossing north to south to see if they have the proper paperwork (passport or national ID card for EEA citizens, passport and any required visa for others) but UK Border Force do not check people crossing south to north.

 

I am not aware of any customs checks between the UK and RoI.

 

Of course checks are carried out on people and goods arriving in the Republic by sea or air from outside the EEA.

 

But not, in my experience at least, on people arriving by ferry from the UK. At least, every time I've driven off the Fishguard to Rosslare ferry I've never been stopped nor seen anyone else stopped; and that includes articulated lorries as well as cars. I have no personal experience of arriving in the Republic by air; difficult to get the car onto a scheduled flight!

 

I'm always willing to be corrected if I have matters of fact incorrect; so tell us, apart from the random checks I mentioned above, where and by whom are checks on people and goods travelling between the UK and RoI already being carried out and what are those checks checking?

 

 

 

  There are custom checks, as the vat duty in the I.R is different to that in the U.K. Plus there are checks on the movement of livestock.

Just because you personally do not see any checks taking place for goods, does not mean non are taking place. The reason being, that it is 2019, and most of the paperwork is vie the computer. And this is sometimes completed days before the vehicles even cross the boarder.

[7by7]

5 minutes ago, nontabury said:

There are custom checks, as the vat duty in the I.R is different to that in the U.K. Plus there are checks on the movement of livestock.

Just because you personally do not see any checks taking place for goods, does not mean non are taking place. The reason being, that it is 2019, and most of the paperwork is vie the computer. And this is sometimes completed days before the vehicles even cross the boarder.

and your evidence of this is?

 

From The Irish border and Brexit by Full Fact

Quote

Movement between Ireland and the UK now

Northern Ireland being part of the United Kingdom, there’s a land border between the UK and another country, the Republic of Ireland.

In the past, the need for customs and security checks meant that the border was a physical as well as legal and political reality. Nowadays, it isn’t a barrier in any practical sense.

 

[nontabury]

5 hours ago, 7by7 said:

I know, I said so.

 

But are there any serious discussions taking place, and if so where and amongst whom?

 

Remember, this idea has been mooted by various politicians since the 1950s; but there is no European Army!

On the 22nd January 2019, Merkel in the German city of Aachen, signed A freindship agreement with Macron of France. The German Chancellor said it was A step in the future creation of a joint European Army.

[bomber]

3 hours ago, nontabury said:

On the 22nd January 2019, Merkel in the German city of Aachen, signed A freindship agreement with Macron of France. The German Chancellor said it was A step in the future creation of a joint European Army.

means nowt,and has bot all to do with brexit,it actually goes to show nations make 99% of there own decisions despite what you keep telling us,anyway germany did the same in 1939 with russia and GB,the rest is history.

[tomacht8]

4 hours ago, nontabury said:

On the 22nd January 2019, Merkel in the German city of Aachen, signed A freindship agreement with Macron of France. The German Chancellor said it was A step in the future creation of a joint European Army.

No fear. As long as the British drive on the left (wrong) side of the road, there will be no common army with the UK.????

[Laughing Gravy]

11 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

 As i have already said, more than once, 

 

 

I ask you two the same question.

 

Where are these discussions about a EU army taking place, and amongst whom?

 

 

I guess you are a quite a newbie so I will explain.????

We have had two very long Brexit threads over the last few years and this subject was discussed comprehensively. Sadly the two threads got removed and I can't say why, as I will probably be sent to the naughty corner. Hope that helps.

[Laughing Gravy]

12 hours ago, bomber said:

cannot see why brits are upset at the prospect of a euro army,surely its just another version of NATO which was mostly made up of euro nations anyway,the new version would be much better tho as it wont involve uncle sam,so it will save billions and never be needed,WIN WIN WIN,

Personally I feel that that many EU countries should pay their way in NATO First.

Even though I believe the USA should stop policing the world I do still think that they are friends to the UK and Europe and using the call for an EU army as a potential attack on the US which would also be against the UK, is wrong.

 

I am also against the federalisation of Europe and that is what the EU is doing. The EU army is an extension of that.

[tomacht8]

33 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Personally I feel that that many EU countries should pay their way in NATO First.

Even though I believe the USA should stop policing the world I do still think that they are friends to the UK and Europe and using the call for an EU army as a potential attack on the US which would also be against the UK, is wrong.

 

I am also against the federalisation of Europe and that is what the EU is doing. The EU army is an extension of that.

I can not agree with you: many EU countries should pay their way in NATO First.
Who determines how much we should spend on weapons of war?
Certainly not Donald.
That should be determined by the European countries independently.
I can agree with you: " I believe the USA should stop policing the world".
I can agree with you: " I do still think that they are friends to the UK and Europe".
But unfortunately Trump's commitment to the common security architecture in europe is questioned by him several times.
It took a few US voices in the background that the clown DT agreed to the common NATO doctrine security structure.
The Uk alone with their few nuclear missiles is also not able to build here crucial threats.
The last thing the world needs is a nuclear war.
So where do the enemy pictures come from?
Even Russia realizes that a nuclear war will only bring contaminated land for the next 1000 years.
In Europe, not a single country is able to realize geopolitically "land gains" with a war here.
Even if all European countries including the UK are standing together, the Russians or the US could easily blow us away.
In Europe, we should continue on the path of being peaceful and standing together.
I would welcome a common European army or close cooperation.
The EU population would save many costs in terms of different war systems.
We should harmonize and unify these.
If the EU (include the UK), as a closed bloc, offered Russia a way to co-operate with the EU, Russia would immediately stop the punk in the Ukraine.
The US could easily watch a war in Europe.
Some missiles of Russian submarine rockets would also cause pain to them.
But overall, the US is far away.
The EU and also the UK must see that the theater of war does not take place on European land.
Europe must grow stronger together here (Brexit does not help here geopolitically).
Enhanced cooperation between Russia and Europe (EU including the UK) would be very important here.

The Chinese with their war systems are growing much faster than the unity of the Europeans.
The UK can not just hang on its island and hope to be towed away to an another water.
The UK is part of Europe and can not change that geopolitically.
Why not try harder to mitigate the threat of Russia without bending over, and trying to work harder together in Europe.

 

[Loiner]

You mean your simply wrote a list of what you think without checking it came from the source you thought it did?
 
Sorry, I don't believe that at all.
 
As has been shown, your list has so little bearing on the truth as to be absolutely worthless. You obviously made it up, there is no source.
 
If your list were on paper it wouldn't even be worth cutting into squares, punching a hole in one corner, threading a piece of string through that hole and sending to your friends at Heritage labelled "Bogs; for use in!"

You certainly don’t like that do you? Not that it matters much and I don’t care. I don’t have to quote sources to you and I don’t even have to taken anything from a ‘source’. I can research and think for myself.

Except for the fact that the UK voted to Leave the EU and Remain lost there are no other ‘facts’ or truth. You pick and quote hyperbole that supports your agenda. Coming from some economist or like minded politician counts for nought. They’re all predictions in uncharted waters like Mystic Meg’s.

Why not go see those guys in orange down the wat? They are always good for a lottery forecast and will probably give you a suitable Brexit economic scare prophecy if you ask.



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[Spidey]

42 minutes ago, Loiner said:

You certainly don’t like that do you? Not that it matters much and I don’t care. I don’t have to quote sources to you and I don’t even have to taken anything from a ‘source’. I can research and think for myself.

You do if you want to post "facts" on TV, as you've already learned. Surprised that your second posting of your imaginary list hasn't been taken down too.

[Loiner]

You do if you want to post "facts" on TV, as you've already learned. Surprised that your second posting of your imaginary list hasn't been taken down too.

Just told you - ‘facts’ are in the past. Although they can be spun and twisted. The future is for fortune telling.


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[Grouse]

8 hours ago, nontabury said:

On the 22nd January 2019, Merkel in the German city of Aachen, signed A freindship agreement with Macron of France. The German Chancellor said it was A step in the future creation of a joint European Army.

Good! They clearly distrust Trump and U.K. I agree

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, tomacht8 said:

I can not agree with you: many EU countries should pay their way in NATO First.
Who determines how much we should spend on weapons of war?
Certainly not Donald.
That should be determined by the European countries independently.
I can agree with you: " I believe the USA should stop policing the world".
I can agree with you: " I do still think that they are friends to the UK and Europe".
But unfortunately Trump's commitment to the common security architecture in europe is questioned by him several times.
It took a few US voices in the background that the clown DT agreed to the common NATO doctrine security structure.
The Uk alone with their few nuclear missiles is also not able to build here crucial threats.
The last thing the world needs is a nuclear war.
So where do the enemy pictures come from?
Even Russia realizes that a nuclear war will only bring contaminated land for the next 1000 years.
In Europe, not a single country is able to realize geopolitically "land gains" with a war here.
Even if all European countries including the UK are standing together, the Russians or the US could easily blow us away.
In Europe, we should continue on the path of being peaceful and standing together.
I would welcome a common European army or close cooperation.
The EU population would save many costs in terms of different war systems.
We should harmonize and unify these.
If the EU (include the UK), as a closed bloc, offered Russia a way to co-operate with the EU, Russia would immediately stop the punk in the Ukraine.
The US could easily watch a war in Europe.
Some missiles of Russian submarine rockets would also cause pain to them.
But overall, the US is far away.
The EU and also the UK must see that the theater of war does not take place on European land.
Europe must grow stronger together here (Brexit does not help here geopolitically).
Enhanced cooperation between Russia and Europe (EU including the UK) would be very important here.

The Chinese with their war systems are growing much faster than the unity of the Europeans.
The UK can not just hang on its island and hope to be towed away to an another water.
The UK is part of Europe and can not change that geopolitically.
Why not try harder to mitigate the threat of Russia without bending over, and trying to work harder together in Europe.

 

re paying for military

 

thought it was an agreed goal among NATO members that minimum 2% of GDP should be

spent on the military before 2022?

 

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, tomacht8 said:

I can not agree with you: many EU countries should pay their way in NATO First.
Who determines how much we should spend on weapons of war?

Well if many EU countries are not pulling their weight now, what makes you think they will if there was an EU army?

 

NATO has never been democratic especially with the big 5 having the veto power.  However if you agree to pay your way you should.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/most-eu-countries-still-miss-nato-defense-spending-target-annual-report/

 

The EU is very much like NATO a few countries pulling the strings with the others following and doing as they are told.

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

re paying for military

 

thought it was an agreed goal among NATO members that minimum 2% of GDP should be

spent on the military before 2022?

 

Think about that

 

Germany has no nuclear deterrent and no blue water fleet

 

2% of 5 trillion USD is 100 Billion every year. How many German main battle tanks do you want?

[nauseus]

14 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

re paying for military

 

thought it was an agreed goal among NATO members that minimum 2% of GDP should be

spent on the military before 2022?

 

That is the agreement that most of them are not honouring at the moment.

 

Good map in this link:

 

https://www.dw.com/en/how-does-germany-contribute-to-nato/a-38033967

 

An EU army will just increase the chance of NATO disintegrating. Big mistake. 

[melvinmelvin]

34 minutes ago, nauseus said:

That is the agreement that most of them are not honouring at the moment.

 

Good map in this link:

 

https://www.dw.com/en/how-does-germany-contribute-to-nato/a-38033967

 

An EU army will just increase the chance of NATO disintegrating. Big mistake. 

yes, I know that, but remember, for the moment it is not 2022.

Recent Putin actions might help in opening purses.

 

 

 

[nauseus]

50 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Think about that

 

Germany has no nuclear deterrent and no blue water fleet

 

2% of 5 trillion USD is 100 Billion every year. How many German main battle tanks do you want?

How much insurance cover do you want?

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

How much insurance cover do you want?

I don't think we need another 5,000 Leopard II tanks every year just lurking about in the Fulda Gap singing the Horst Wessel song.

[evadgib]

11 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 Still at 98,421 with 7 days to go. Might just scrape through to 100,000 by the deadline.

 

Of course, we all know that these petitions are really just a sop to the electorate; whatever they are about. I have not heard of a single one having any effect; whatever it was about.

105k this morning & will be in the 120s by the time you log in.

 

[vinny41]

15 hours ago, bomber said:

fact is airbus didnt move,i worked a few years for a company around 2005 that made parts for the wings for AB and their was constant rumours of work going elsewhere,these companies are always looking at alternatives often only half heart'd,euro or pounds wouldnt make much difference anyway,but brexit is a total different ball game to whatever has gone on before.

Airbus have always been more than willing to rant about Brexit, even when they aren’t being prodded by the Government. Surely their enthusiasm for relentless remoaning at politically convenient moments can’t be anything to do with the astonishing sum of €64,172,543 Airbus have received from the EU in just the last five years. Almost €13 million of taxpayers money was funnelled their way last year alone.