Buying House in Wife Name - Any OTHER protections?

[totally thaied up]

To the OP - if you are married (like I am) you will come to the realization that if you cannot afford to lose that 50% of the house because she will just not have the money to pay you back (and cry and sob she has nowhere to go), either you write the money off from the start or marry a woman like did that owned her own house.

 

Your options are not that many but do not put all your eggs into one basket here in Thailand or in fact anywhere else. I have seen all sorts of fancy contracts come undone here just because the ex-wife would not move out or have the place hocked up to other lenders.

 

Sure if you are married, it is 50/50 but when they (the girl) have 50% of nothing (like most cases), what have they got to lose - Nothing and believe me, once a Thai owns the land, you won't get them to move off it easily.

Edited January 21, 2019 by totally thaied up
Edit - add content

[GreasyFingers]

12 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Would she move in her new boyfriend or her family because if she wanted to, there is not much you can do about it.

I know we are getting too old for that kind of confrontation but we were brought to to be men.

[Krataiboy]

Irrespective of where the money came from, under Thai law all assets acquired after a marriage should be divided equally between the parties.

 

This includes property, which (unless other arrangements are mutually agreed) should be sold and the proceeds split 50-50.

 

Best not go there unless you absolutely have to!

[bwpage3]

9 hours ago, JakeR said:

@cornishcarlos Which land office have you been going to that does not make you sign said document?

 

@janclaes47 The contact could be worded as such that its not criminalizing myself.

Overall I think that if the land office makes me sign that the money is my wife's -- so why not be smart and just make another contract as well? Between my wife and I? Which simply says that once the house is ever sold, monies will be due from her to me.

 

I am not contradicting anything, just very simple contract that says: wife will owe me money from house proceeds upon eventual sale. I am not stating that the money came from me.  It is very, very simple.

So I would be surprised if this couldn't work or would not be enforceable? It sound almost too simple...

 

But anyone can make a contract between people that is enforceable. No?

 

 

Contract or not contract, you are missing the big picture.

 

Your money will be lost period.

 

Do you think the Thai legal system is just going to stop everything they are doing and go after her for your money?

 

If she doesn't pay, she doesn't pay. The legal system could care little to get involved in your personal financial affairs with her.

 

All she has to say are things like the money disappeared, someone stole the money, etc. and she is home free.

 

This is Thailand and the law does not serve foreigners well, contract or not.

 

Once you 2 split, the only concern she will ever have is money, money, money and she will do anything to keep the money from the house.

 

Come on man. Use your head and don't spend the money if you simply cannot afford to lose it all.

 

All the posters are telling you the same thing.

 

The Thai legal system will never look out for you, lawyer or no lawyer, law or no law.

 

The fact you are seeking advice tells me there is a propensity for you two to split up.

 

Never take a gamble. the foreigner will lose 99% of the time.

 

Ask yourself seriously what is more important to her?

 

Your or her own house?

 

Better get than answer correct, because if you have the wrong answer, you lose it all.

 

 

[janclaes47]

2 hours ago, shadowmaster1971 said:

After consulting Mr. Google, he has come back with an array of information.  However the following is probably

a good simply explanation on the issue of owning an existing house as separate from the land.  Of which I note the information I have come across so far (unless you have something to the contrary) - there is nothing to suggest a Foreigner cannot own an existing house separately from the land.

 

https://www.samuiforsale.com/knowledge/building-real-estate-thailand.html

Good find, and I hereby stand corrected.

[youreavinalaff]

10 minutes ago, bwpage3 said:

Contract or not contract, you are missing the big picture.

 

Your money will be lost period.

 

Do you think the Thai legal system is just going to stop everything they are doing and go after her for your money?

 

If she doesn't pay, she doesn't pay. The legal system could care little to get involved in your personal financial affairs with her.

 

All she has to say are things like the money disappeared, someone stole the money, etc. and she is home free.

 

This is Thailand and the law does not serve foreigners well, contract or not.

 

Once you 2 split, the only concern she will ever have is money, money, money and she will do anything to keep the money from the house.

 

Come on man. Use your head and don't spend the money if you simply cannot afford to lose it all.

 

All the posters are telling you the same thing.

 

The Thai legal system will never look out for you, lawyer or no lawyer, law or no law.

 

The fact you are seeking advice tells me there is a propensity for you two to split up.

 

Never take a gamble. the foreigner will lose 99% of the time.

 

Ask yourself seriously what is more important to her?

 

Your or her own house?

 

Better get than answer correct, because if you have the wrong answer, you lose it all.

 

 

Total bol%$cks.

[ThaidDown]

5 minutes ago, Benroon said:

OMG - where do you get this shit from ? If that was true it’s not a <deleted> contract is it ! 

I got it from the law of Thailand, something you obviously know very little about.

 

It is well known that agreements/contracts between husband and wife are unenforceable.

Refer to  CCC section 1469

Section 1469. Agreements can be Voided

 

Any agreement concluded between husband and wife during marriage may be voided by either of them at any time during marriage or within one year from the day of dissolution of marriage; provided that the right of third persons acting in good faith are not affected thereby.

.

[youreavinalaff]

2 minutes ago, ThaidDown said:

I got it from the law of Thailand, something you obviously know very little about.

 

It is well known that agreements/contracts between husband and wife are unenforceable.

Refer to  CCC section 1469

Section 1469. Agreements can be Voided

 

Any agreement concluded between husband and wife during marriage may be voided by either of them at any time during marriage or within one year from the day of dissolution of marriage; provided that the right of third persons acting in good faith are not affected thereby.

.

I've re read the post a couple time now. Failing to see the word "contract".

 

Example : Agreement vs. Contract. An agreement is any understanding or arrangement reached between two or more parties. A contract is a specific type of agreement that, by its terms and elements, is legally binding and enforceable in a court of law.

[janclaes47]

12 minutes ago, Benroon said:

OMG - where do you get this shit from ? If that was true it’s not a <deleted> contract is it ! 

I think you just answered your own question, because legally between wife and husband there can be no contracts

[youreavinalaff]

Just now, janclaes47 said:

I think you just answered your own question, because legally between wife and husband there can be no contracts

LOL. If there was no contract then they would not be husband and wife.

 

 

[baansgr]

27 minutes ago, Benroon said:

First mistake you made was asking people who have been turned over because they’re not the brightest or believe everything they read on here.

 

There are numerous ways to protect yourself just get a decent lawyer

 

Lastly in all western countries you would be expected to split proceeds 50/50 so yet again Thailand is not unique there! Would you commit to something where the other partner walked away with the lot and took none of the risk ?

 

if you’re edgy about it you’ll probably better off renting for a while but whatever you do ignore the people telling you it’s a one way ticket to ruin. Take the correct advice you’ll be fine. 

People have been "turned over" as thats the way it is here

Again, lawyers will tell you anything to make you happy and put your mind at rest and charge tens or even hundreds of thousands Baht for the privilege but reality is its all worthless when the s** hits the fan

Please enlighten us with the "numerous ways" to protect oneselfe....and please dont mention usufruct, kids name, pre nup, contracts or leases as these options are useless as the Thai will still have overall control.

[janclaes47]

11 minutes ago, Benroon said:

‘They’ don’t !

 

Perhaps it’s a selective law which only gets invoked when they see a retard walk into the office ? 

 

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-law/ownership-of-property-through-a-thai-spouse/

 

The problem is that foreigners are not allowed to co-own land in Thailand even with their spouse. If a Thai national is married to a foreign national, the land department will not allow the Thai national to register the property without evidence that the land was purchased by the Thai national with personal assets. This is usually in the form of a joint declaration between the foreign national and the Thai spouse. The declaration states that the Thai spouse purchase the land with their own personal funds.

[janclaes47]

Just now, youreavinalaff said:

LOL. If there was no contract then they would not be husband and wife.

 

 

LOL. That marriage contract was made before they became husband and wife

[youreavinalaff]

1 minute ago, janclaes47 said:

https://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-law/ownership-of-property-through-a-thai-spouse/

 

The problem is that foreigners are not allowed to co-own land in Thailand even with their spouse. If a Thai national is married to a foreign national, the land department will not allow the Thai national to register the property without evidence that the land was purchased by the Thai national with personal assets. This is usually in the form of a joint declaration between the foreign national and the Thai spouse. The declaration states that the Thai spouse purchase the land with their own personal funds.

It has already been shown that this is simply not true. Please take the time to look at the law regarding "sin som rot"

[youreavinalaff]

2 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

LOL. That marriage contract was made before they became husband and wife

So it is possible to have a contract between husband and wife??? Thanks for clearing that matter up for us.

Edited January 21, 2019 by youreavinalaff

[janclaes47]

Just now, youreavinalaff said:

It has already been shown that this is simply not true. Please take the time to look at the law regarding "sin som rot"

Where it has been shown? Feel free to post a link

[youreavinalaff]

1 minute ago, janclaes47 said:

Where it has been shown? Feel free to post a link

Speaking from personal experience. 

[Buffy Frobisher]

@JakeR All the advice on this topic regarding you losing your shirt is correct, and even if you do the 50/50 split of anything acquired during the marriage when you divorce, it will only apply to the house structure, not the land. You can never own the land. And you'll never see your half of the house - it's generally a physically bad outcome for any farang who takes on the relatives or village of his ex-wife, so be prepared to walk away from the lot.

 

That said, I bought my house in Bangkok 16 years ago with a company I formed as the sole owner (share classes), which for all intents is owned by Thais. I later appointed my wife, who I married after I bought said house, as a Director and Shareholder of the company so that she'd have it all if I curled up my toes; but at the first sign of possible cracks in the marriage my lawyer suggested we remove her, which I did, so she was the mercy of my will, and behaved herself since ????. 

 

Mind you, we also bought some land at Hua Hin and Nakhon Sawan which is all in her name, and at each land offfice I had to sign a document acknowledging that it was her land and that I had no claim on it whatsoever. That's pretty standard, again, because farang entities can't own land unless they are a company. I/we recently sold the Bangkok house by selling the company, again to an expat, and it was painless thanks to my lawyers; and we're now building on one of the land plots, though on a reduced budget that I can afford to lose.

 

A company can own house AND land but you'll need Thai proxy shareholders which is fairly common but a bit grey legally, or you can put the land in her name and own the house yourself (again, I wouldn't like your chances of keeping it if the marriage goes South), or you can formally lease the land and house from her for 30 years with two 30-year extensions.

 

Talk to a good expat lawyer operating in Thailand - there's many of them, and they'll all be able to sort it out in your favour. But if you buy the house in her name it is hers, not yours, and you must be prepared to lose it without a fight that could cost you your life too if you initiate one.

 

[youreavinalaff]

15 minutes ago, Buffy Frobisher said:

@JakeR All the advice on this topic regarding you losing your shirt is correct, and even if you do the 50/50 split of anything acquired during the marriage when you divorce, it will only apply to the house structure, not the land. You can never own the land. And you'll never see your half of the house - it's generally a physically bad outcome for any farang who takes on the relatives or village of his ex-wife, so be prepared to walk away from the lot.

 

That said, I bought my house in Bangkok 16 years ago with a company I formed as the sole owner (share classes), which for all intents is owned by Thais. I later appointed my wife, who I married after I bought said house, as a Director and Shareholder of the company so that she'd have it all if I curled up my toes; but at the first sign of possible cracks in the marriage my lawyer suggested we remove her, which I did, so she was the mercy of my will, and behaved herself since ????. 

 

Mind you, we also bought some land at Hua Hin and Nakhon Sawan which is all in her name, and at each land offfice I had to sign a document acknowledging that it was her land and that I had no claim on it whatsoever. That's pretty standard, again, because farang entities can't own land unless they are a company. I/we recently sold the Bangkok house by selling the company, again to an expat, and it was painless thanks to my lawyers; and we're now building on one of the land plots, though on a reduced budget that I can afford to lose.

 

A company can own house AND land but you'll need Thai proxy shareholders which is fairly common but a bit grey legally, or you can put the land in her name and own the house yourself (again, I wouldn't like your chances of keeping it if the marriage goes South), or you can formally lease the land and house from her for 30 years with two 30-year extensions.

 

Talk to a good expat lawyer operating in Thailand - there's many of them, and they'll all be able to sort it out in your favour. But if you buy the house in her name it is hers, not yours, and you must be prepared to lose it without a fight that could cost you your life too if you initiate one.

 

Here is a quote from a very well respected law firm in Thailand.

 

"How are marital assets and property divided in the event of divorce?

Thailand is a "Community Property" jurisdiction. When a couple divorces in Thailand, Separate Property (Sin Suan Tua), namely assets and property acquired before marriage, generally remains the property of the owner. Assets and property acquired during marriage are generally considered Community Property (Sin Som Rot) with both spouses having an ownership right."

[baansgr]

37 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Here is a quote from a very well respected law firm in Thailand.

 

"How are marital assets and property divided in the event of divorce?

Thailand is a "Community Property" jurisdiction. When a couple divorces in Thailand, Separate Property (Sin Suan Tua), namely assets and property acquired before marriage, generally remains the property of the owner. Assets and property acquired during marriage are generally considered Community Property (Sin Som Rot) with both spouses having an ownership right."

And that is exactly the wording of the document signed at the land office by Foreigners whose wife is buying property, you are stating the funds used are Sin Suan Tua

673393284_LetterofConfirmation.pdf

Edited January 21, 2019 by baansgr

[youreavinalaff]

5 minutes ago, baansgr said:

And that is exactly the wording of the document signed at the land office by Foreigners whose wife is buying property, you are stating the funds used are Sin Suan Tua

The OP said he was buying a property in his "wife's name". This means the property is being bought during marriage. It is Sin Som Rot. 

Edited January 21, 2019 by youreavinalaff

[Buffy Frobisher]

50 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Here is a quote from a very well respected law firm in Thailand.

 

"How are marital assets and property divided in the event of divorce?

Thailand is a "Community Property" jurisdiction. When a couple divorces in Thailand, Separate Property (Sin Suan Tua), namely assets and property acquired before marriage, generally remains the property of the owner. Assets and property acquired during marriage are generally considered Community Property (Sin Som Rot) with both spouses having an ownership right."

And your point is? I wasn't disputing any of that. ????

[baansgr]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

The OP said he was buying a property in his "wife's name". This means the property is being bought during marriage. It is Sin Som Rot. 

Take a look at the document I posted that he and any other married Foreigner signs, it clearly states that the funds used are Sin Suan Tua, not Sin Somros.

Lawyers will tell you they can get your money back.....retainers starting at 150,000 Baht with never ending increments of 50, 75, 100,00 more for court visits, the lawyers are just playing on peoples emotions when they are at a low ebb

Edited January 21, 2019 by baansgr

[Tony125]

14 hours ago, JakeR said:

@cornishcarlos Which land office have you been going to that does not make you sign said document?

 

@janclaes47 The contact could be worded as such that its not criminalizing myself.

Overall I think that if the land office makes me sign that the money is my wife's -- so why not be smart and just make another contract as well? Between my wife and I? Which simply says that once the house is ever sold, monies will be due from her to me.

 

I am not contradicting anything, just very simple contract that says: wife will owe me money from house proceeds upon eventual sale. I am not stating that the money came from me.  It is very, very simple.

So I would be surprised if this couldn't work or would not be enforceable? It sound almost too simple...

 

But anyone can make a contract between people that is enforceable. No?

 

 

Please read this article on 2 expts who were millionaires in their own countries who go fleeced by their Thai wives over property. She may not be smart enough to know how but she can find those who are.  

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34346620

 

End result--they have never gotten any money or property back.

[mgthom63]

1 hour ago, Benroon said:

An 'agreement' is not a legally binding 'contract' !

 

However to assist your limited legal knowledge I have provided the following to help you :-

 

The proper way to make an official contract is through legal means, whereas an agreement can be done without legal involvement. Agreements are generally made over small things, and are usually held by taking someone’s word. ... The difference lies in the formality of the contract and the personalization of an agreement.

 

In short - you are confused

 

 

HE has limited legal knowledge and is confused?  I hope to God you're not licensed to practice law!

An 'agreement' CAN most certainly constitute a legally binding contract, if it includes the requisite elements such as lawful offer, acceptance and consideration, etc. 

Some 'interesting' language also about 'the proper way' to make a contract and the 'difference' between the two...care to share where these nuggets came from?

 

In short - you are naive about contract law and should do a bit more googling before 'helping' others 

 

Edited January 21, 2019 by mgthom63

[cornishcarlos]

20 hours ago, JakeR said:

@cornishcarlos Which land office have you been going to that does not make you sign said document?

 

The land office responsible for the plots of land we have bought. Donsak, Khanom and one in Chaiyaphum.

[bkk6060]

Rent!

[puchooay]

I paid for a plot of land and the chanote is in my wife's name.

 

I was quite happy for my wife to go alone and do everything herself when transferring ownership.

 

She called me when she was at the land office. I needed to go to sign a form. When I arrived at the office I enquired as to what the form was about.

 

I was told by officer " It is to protect you. This is a Sin Som Rot agreement". The conversation was in Thai so no mis understanding or mis interpretation. I can also read Thai so took a look at the form too. It was there in black and white, "Sin Som Rot"

 

This was in Muang district, Buriram.

[Wake Up]

The more I live here the more I realize that a lot of bad advice is stated on TFV daily as facts when it is fiction or myth or simply people who love to criticize Thailand. Contact a good Thai lawyer from Khon Kaen. She is 

married to  a PHD man from Australia. 

Contact her by her Email address. die[email protected]

 

She has successfully helped expats with houses and leases and injunctions etc.  I do know a lease between yourself and a girlfriend is legally valid if you spit up. A lease between you and your wife is voided if you divorce. Better to have a lease with someone not your wife. 

[MyFriend You]

On 1/21/2019 at 9:33 AM, JakeR said:

@cornishcarlos Which land office have you been going to that does not make you sign said document?

 

@janclaes47 The contact could be worded as such that its not criminalizing myself.

Overall I think that if the land office makes me sign that the money is my wife's -- so why not be smart and just make another contract as well? Between my wife and I? Which simply says that once the house is ever sold, monies will be due from her to me.

 

I am not contradicting anything, just very simple contract that says: wife will owe me money from house proceeds upon eventual sale. I am not stating that the money came from me.  It is very, very simple.

So I would be surprised if this couldn't work or would not be enforceable? It sound almost too simple...

 

But anyone can make a contract between people that is enforceable. No?

 

 

No, a contract between a wife and husband is not enforceable in Court, (Pre-Nuptials are not a legal document in the eyes of the courts, but you might be able to BS your wife into thinking they are) and if your wife bails and has borrowed money against the house, you can and will be liable to pay it back.  It's a no win situation.........just curious though........if you feel the need to protect yourself against your wife, why buy in the first place.  Just give her the money, get a Lifetime Usafruct so you can't be kicked out  and be done with it.