something amiss here when this country appears to be rich in resources, and the population living in misery,

From all indications, Maduro intends to defy the US and rally the radicals and anti-Americans in the hemisphere and the rest of the world.

Guiado's constitutional claim to the presidency of Venezuela was a scheme cooked up in collusion with Washington, made in the USA, with Secretary of State Pompeo, John Bolton and Sen. Marco Rubio signing on. This was Plan A.

But if Plan A does not succeed, and Maduro, with America's prestige on the line, defies their demand that he yield, what do they do then?

What is Plan B?

"Assad must go!" said Barack Obama.  Well, Assad is still there - and Obama is gone.

Will the same be said of Maduro?

5 hours ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

From all indications, Maduro intends to defy the US and rally the radicals and anti-Americans in the hemisphere and the rest of the world.

Guiado's constitutional claim to the presidency of Venezuela was a scheme cooked up in collusion with Washington, made in the USA, with Secretary of State Pompeo, John Bolton and Sen. Marco Rubio signing on. This was Plan A.

But if Plan A does not succeed, and Maduro, with America's prestige on the line, defies their demand that he yield, what do they do then?

What is Plan B?

"Assad must go!" said Barack Obama.  Well, Assad is still there - and Obama is gone.

Will the same be said of Maduro?

Well reasoned post. But US has just slapped a trade embargo on Venezuela. This is plan B.

Plan C will be further threats.

Then Putin will tell Trump to desist. Nothing more will be heard about Maduro. Just like nothing will be heard about the Kurds anymore.

There is hope for Venezuelans that didn't exist before. How it turns out nobody knows. Too much focus on "trump" in this. Without the Latin American coalition of nations in Lima this hopeful process would have never begun.

 

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Prissana Pescud said:

Well reasoned post. But US has just slapped a trade embargo on Venezuela. This is plan B.

Plan C will be further threats.

Then Putin will tell Trump to desist. Nothing more will be heard about Maduro. Just like nothing will be heard about the Kurds anymore.

That could be. At this point it's anybody's guess.

The operation in Venezuela is a complex situation that might be leading to military intervention by the US.  A foreseeable disaster.

"We don't win [wars] anymore" said candidate Donald Trump in 2016 and he wasn't wrong about that. In fact, that remarkable record of repeatedly turning initially advertised victory into something approximating defeat could be one reason candidate Trump could boast that he knew more about military matters than America's generals. Yet for all his talk of winning, victories [large or small] have proved no less elusive for him as commander-in-chief.

Washington leaders of all stripes love to boast of a military that's "second to none," of a fighting force that's the "finest" in history. Recently, VP Mike Pence reminded the troops that they are "the best of us."  Indeed you could argue that "support our troops" has become a new American mantra, a national motto as ubiquitous as [and synonymous with] "In God we trust."  But if America's military truly is the finest fighting force since forever, someone should explain why it has failed to produce clear and enduring victories of any significance since World War II.

 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

That could be. At this point it's anybody's guess.

The operation in Venezuela is a complex situation that might be leading to military intervention by the US.  A foreseeable disaster.

"We don't win [wars] anymore" said candidate Donald Trump in 2016 and he wasn't wrong about that. In fact, that remarkable record of repeatedly turning initially advertised victory into something approximating defeat could be one reason candidate Trump could boast that he knew more about military matters than America's generals. Yet for all his talk of winning, victories [large or small] have proved no less elusive for him as commander-in-chief.

Washington leaders of all stripes love to boast of a military that's "second to none," of a fighting force that's the "finest" in history. Recently, VP Mike Pence reminded the troops that they are "the best of us."  Indeed you could argue that "support our troops" has become a new American mantra, a national motto as ubiquitous as [and synonymous with] "In God we trust."  But if America's military truly is the finest fighting force since forever, someone should explain why it has failed to produce clear and enduring victories of any significance since World War II.

 

 

 

 

Winning a war is not that difficult with a country the size of the USA.

 

They have proved that many times since WW2.

 

Winning the peace is far harder to achieve.

Winning a war is not that difficult with a country the size of the USA.
 
They have proved that many times since WW2.
 
Winning the peace is far harder to achieve.

It's premature to assume this needs to be a war. Maduro can retire in Cuba. Maybe take up bus driving again.

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1 hour ago, billd766 said:

Winning a war is not that difficult with a country the size of the USA.

 

They have proved that many times since WW2.

 

Winning the peace is far harder to achieve.

Could you explain what war has been won by the US since WW2. 

Korea just returned the statis quo. Vietnam was a huge loss.

Lebanon incursion was a loss. Somalia incursion was a loss.

Iraq is a loss (because you let ISIS be formed) Afghanistan is an ongoing loss.

But hang on. You did have a win. Was it Grenada. Yes. wow

The only time order is restored anywhere is when US leaves

1 hour ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

That could be. At this point it's anybody's guess.

The operation in Venezuela is a complex situation that might be leading to military intervention by the US.  A foreseeable disaster.

"We don't win [wars] anymore" said candidate Donald Trump in 2016 and he wasn't wrong about that. In fact, that remarkable record of repeatedly turning initially advertised victory into something approximating defeat could be one reason candidate Trump could boast that he knew more about military matters than America's generals. Yet for all his talk of winning, victories [large or small] have proved no less elusive for him as commander-in-chief.

Washington leaders of all stripes love to boast of a military that's "second to none," of a fighting force that's the "finest" in history. Recently, VP Mike Pence reminded the troops that they are "the best of us."  Indeed you could argue that "support our troops" has become a new American mantra, a national motto as ubiquitous as [and synonymous with] "In God we trust."  But if America's military truly is the finest fighting force since forever, someone should explain why it has failed to produce clear and enduring victories of any significance since World War II.

 

 

 

 

There is a simple explanation why the US has failed to produce clear and significant victories since WW2.

 Any junior NCO could tell you. Any mission conducted by junior personnel in western armies usually has a system called SMEAC.

Without going into all that, the M stands for Mission.

There is a clearly outlined concise reason for what you are about to engage.

And a very real exit strategy.

Take Afghanistan for instance. The original plan was to crush the organisation of Bin Laden and eradicate him.

That was achieved years ago. And yet....

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Prissana Pescud said:

Could you explain what war has been won by the US since WW2.  Korea just returned the statis quo. Vietnam was a huge loss.

Lebanon incursion was a loss. Somalia incursion was a loss. Iraq is a loss (because you let ISIS be formed) Afghanistan is an ongoing loss.

But hang on. You did have a win. Was it Grenada. Yes. wow  The only time order is restored anywhere is when US leaves

Hey man, be fair. We got Noriega when he stopped working for us and ventured out on his own.

13 hours ago, Jingthing said:

It's premature to assume this needs to be a war. Maduro can retire in Cuba. Maybe take up bus driving again.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I replied to DaddyWarbucks at post #36.

 

As usual, the USA is trying for a regime change to get their hands on Venezuela's oil. However even if the UN brings this to the fore I suspect that Russia or China will veto it.

10 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I replied to DaddyWarbucks at post #36.

 

As usual, the USA is trying for a regime change to get their hands on Venezuela's oil. However even if the UN brings this to the fore I suspect that Russia or China will veto it.

The reasons are much more complicated than that. Every situation is different. What's going on in Venezuela is a very specific situation. It's entirely appropriate for there to be international action at this time against Maduro but hoping it doesn't escalate to military action. This did not start with the USA, it started with a broad coalition of Latin American nations in their group in Lima, Peru. However, now I'm more pessimistic that violence can be avoided. It's already started. Recent reports are that Maduro's military goons have gone into the slums and are murdering people that have protested. Rebel Venezualan army people are now asking Washington to help with weapons. These are not good signs. 
 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/01/30/democrats-should-stand-democracy-venezuela-democratic-values-america/

<<Headline and first THREE sentences only included>>

 

Quote

 

Democrats should stand for democracy in Venezuela — and democratic values in America

You can’t blame strongmen around the world for being a bit confused this week.

After two years of showering praise on the likes of North Korea’s Kim Jong Un, Russia’s Vladimir Putin and Saudi autocrat Mohammed bin Salman, the Trump administration last Wednesday issued a statement demanding democracy for the people of Venezuela and calling for the removal of President Nicolás Maduro. At this moment of crisis, Democrats should not let our anger at Trump’s double standard goad us into advocating for a retraction of our country’s commitment to supporting democracy and dignity for people in Venezuela and around the world.
 

 

Edited January 30, 20197 yr by Jingthing

21 hours ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

From all indications, Maduro intends to defy the US and rally the radicals and anti-Americans in the hemisphere and the rest of the world.

Guiado's constitutional claim to the presidency of Venezuela was a scheme cooked up in collusion with Washington, made in the USA, with Secretary of State Pompeo, John Bolton and Sen. Marco Rubio signing on. This was Plan A.

But if Plan A does not succeed, and Maduro, with America's prestige on the line, defies their demand that he yield, what do they do then?

What is Plan B?

"Assad must go!" said Barack Obama.  Well, Assad is still there - and Obama is gone.

Will the same be said of Maduro?

 

13 hours ago, DaddyWarbucks said:

That could be. At this point it's anybody's guess.

The operation in Venezuela is a complex situation that might be leading to military intervention by the US.  A foreseeable disaster.

"We don't win [wars] anymore" said candidate Donald Trump in 2016 and he wasn't wrong about that. In fact, that remarkable record of repeatedly turning initially advertised victory into something approximating defeat could be one reason candidate Trump could boast that he knew more about military matters than America's generals. Yet for all his talk of winning, victories [large or small] have proved no less elusive for him as commander-in-chief.

Washington leaders of all stripes love to boast of a military that's "second to none," of a fighting force that's the "finest" in history. Recently, VP Mike Pence reminded the troops that they are "the best of us."  Indeed you could argue that "support our troops" has become a new American mantra, a national motto as ubiquitous as [and synonymous with] "In God we trust."  But if America's military truly is the finest fighting force since forever, someone should explain why it has failed to produce clear and enduring victories of any significance since World War II.

 

 

 

 

Both posts are spot on.

It is possible that armed conflict can be avoided. Israel doesn't have a dog in this fight so their powerful Lobby in Washington won't be relentlessly beating the war drums for military action in Venezuela as they are in Iran, Syria, and elsewhere in the Middle East.

However, the American MIC and Big Oil will be continuing their efforts to dominate Latin America with all the means at their disposal. That will add to the instability in a part of the world where the people don't seem to be capable of governing themselves.

1 minute ago, DeaconJohn said:

 

Both posts are spot on.

It is possible that armed conflict can be avoided. Israel doesn't have a dog in this fight so their powerful Lobby in Washington won't be relentlessly beating the war drums for military action in Venezuela as they are in Iran, Syria, and elsewhere in the Middle East.

However, the American MIC and Big Oil will be continuing their efforts to dominate Latin America with all the means at their disposal. That will add to the instability in a part of the world where the people don't seem to be capable of governing themselves.

Funny. You didn't mention the welfare of the masses of suffering Venezuelan people once. It's always a conspiracy theory mixed in with toxic Israel demonization for added impact. Who cares that the people there want him out, that the last election was totally bogus, that the people are starving, that the people are dying for lack of even basic medical care, that the people have already run for their lives in the multiple millions threatening to destabilize Latin America. Nauseating! 

You have a lunatic on one hand who is a communist and then you have another lunatic who declares himself president without even running for it : ) I think Maduro is the lesser of two evils.

Edited January 30, 20197 yr by Lukecan

On 1/28/2019 at 9:03 AM, Henryford said:

Whatever the USA's motives are for "regime change" i don't see how anyone can support Maduro and what he has done to Venezuela and it's people. The sooner he is gone the better.

Correct

15 hours ago, Lukecan said:

You have a lunatic on one hand who is a communist and then you have another lunatic who declares himself president without even running for it : ) I think Maduro is the lesser of two evils.

How could things be worse than a totally failed state, with the people starving, with people fleeing in droves, with 10 million percent annual inflation, with a corrupt dictator sending his army into the slums to murder protesters?