Thailand should welcome retirees

[FritsSikkink]

44 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I've educated two Thai ladies from junior school to second year degree students, what have you contributed?

These threads are really good at identifying people nobody wants in any country.

 

I am and have been running multiple IT projects in this country for quite a while now.

[BritManToo]

12 minutes ago, fruitman said:

Your village? This is exactly why they don't need 'poor' westerners here, they want the ones who spend 65k on a 7 days holiday.

I do spend 65k on 7 day holidays, in the last few years those holidays were in the Philippines (x4), Laos (x2), Vietnam, China, Cambodia and Malaysia.

[JackThompson]

55 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Are all people using agents scumbags, are you saying or know that you can get a 1 year extension legally using an agent with the new rule change.

Many may want or have to go the agent route to stay unless they get married where the artwork hasn't changed.  

Retirees that have been here a long time should be grandfathered IMO.

No, I was echoing the "scumbags" line from the post I was replying to.  To the extent "scumbags" are here, it is agents who are facilitating their stay. 

 

I agree that Immigration's arbitrary changes are making the agent-route the only viable one for more and more non-scumbags who simply want to stay legally, as they always had before the changes upon changes were piled on to throw them out. 

 

I also agree that grandfathering-out all the changes since a person first arrived is the only humane decision - but the clique who is pushing these changes apparently doesn't have that quality.

[FritsSikkink]

53 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I've educated two Thai ladies from junior school to second year degree students, what have you contributed?

These threads are really good at identifying people nobody wants in any country.

 

Home schooling?

[JackThompson]

17 minutes ago, fruitman said:

Your village? This is exactly why they don't need 'poor' westerners here, they want the ones who spend 65k on a 7 days holiday.

You might want to check with the people in his village, before deciding you know what "they" want. 

Unless you meant immigration as "they" - who clearly don't care about the "little" Thai citizens in villages.  I suppose they'd rather just keep them down China-style - maybe set up some "re-education camps?"  They must see that as preferable to letting them have a better life through peaceful-means - foreigners spending money and accelerating their becoming more economically developed and self-sustaining at a higher standard of living - following the principles which a wise leader of Thailand clearly outlined.

[geriatrickid]

On 2/1/2019 at 4:53 AM, Brunolem said:

Older persons are less inclined to engage in big items purchases than younger ones. 

 

They need more money for small things, such as drinks on the beach, or a new Hawaiian shirt, but that's nothing compared with the amount required for the latest 60" flat screen, or a marble countertop for the kitchen, not to mention the education of the children. 

 

Many retirees can live a pleasant life in Thailand for much less than 65,000 baht per month. 

 

In my village, I wouldn't even know how to spend such an amount... 

 

And therein  is why  general retirees are not desirable.

What are desirable, are the wealthy retirees. These are the people who can afford health insurance, who have homes with domestic staff such as a maid, cook, and driver/handyman/gardener and who regularly dine out, dropping 2,000 baht for a meal without blinking an eye. They purchase high end consumer goods and bring their  families over for  visits.

 

I am not denigrating the poor pensioner, as I too am careful with my spending, however, the benefits of a fellow living up country in a basic home are much exaggerated as are the spin off benefits of Johnny Foreigner living in the studio fan room in Pattaya or Patong chasing balloons. The  reality is that the higher end retirees go elsewhere.

 

Sorry to say, but in Hua Hin, alot of the retirees are in the cheaper accommodations. I am not a fan of the Russians, but  in Hua Hin they are relatively peaceful consist of wealthy or middle class family units. Granny is along to help with the kids or a brother/sister and their respective families.   The Chinese who visit Hua Hin are young, wealthy  and consist of family units too with the grandparents along for the trip. They stay at mid to high market hotels. These people spend more in a week or two than many of the retirees who stay in the 15,000 baht a month apartments and ride the songthaews  etc.

The Russians and Chinese families are staying at the hotels and resorts which charge 5,000, 6,000, 7000+ baht  a night. Toss in  meals and some of these families are easily spending 10,000- 20,000 baht a night. When they come for a week or  two, they can easily spend 50,000-100,000 baht +. And when  thousands a of them are cycling through, they make the typical western pensioner worthless in comparison.  

 

Sad to say, but the  higher end demographic of westerners left or is dying out. They are not picking Thailand. Because of the influx of middle income and wealthy  Russians and Chinese, Thailand has the luxury of not worrying about  the westerners.

[Kwasaki]

40 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I agree that Immigration's arbitrary changes are making the agent-route the only viable one for more and more non-scumbags who simply want to stay legally

OK let's say bad people or people without sufficient funds use agents they still have to have the money to pay or agents will revoke their passport stamp.

Also for retirees wanting to use the agent route how can the agent get around the showing in their bank book of 400,000 baht all year when applying for the following year.

[lkv]

2 hours ago, Brunolem said:

But how can you make a distinction between wealthy Thai/Chinese living in Bangkok, and wealthy Chinese from the mainland visiting Bangkok... just by looking at them? 

 

They are not necessarily that wealthy, Terminal 21 for example is a mid range mall where people can eat starting at 30 baht in the food court.

 

Because I hear Chinese spoken when I walk through the mall or in the elevators ????

Edited February 3, 2019 by lkv

[KhunFred]

Very long ago, I ceased using the term "should" in any sentence related to Thailand. This country has been very resistant to anything resembling "outside interference) for a great many years. They are NOT averse to accepting gold star trade deals and other foreign aid which allow them to hire useless drug cops to combat a non-existent problem. American meddling  has caused us to wear out our welcome rather quickly. The Thais were happy to let us set up military bases on their territory while the monarchy was perceived as being in danger from Communist insurrections.  It's always a case of "what have you done for me lately"?

[HogRidr60]

I am in the process of selling everything I own in the USA, house, car, tools, woodworking equipment, clothes, books, Harley, because as of August 2018, my personal goal was to move to Chiang Mai and retire. I came, I saw, I liked and I decided to move.

 

OK, then the military government changes the immigration rules so that those that have been lying about their income, all these years, cannot ‘beat the system’ anymore. I say it is your country, and a beautiful one, with a lot to offer to me as a ‘retired resident’, not a leech, or a ‘scammer’ but someone that is very happy to support myself, on the Thai economy, follow your rules and laws. Now, for whatever reason, you have ‘set the bar high’ for a reason that escapes me. I have no trouble depositing the requisite 65,000 b per month.

 

As a single, 70 year old disabled veteran, even on a perpetual ‘splurge’, the chances of me spending that amount every month are unlikely, but that is me.

 

I just don’t like being ‘forced’ to put my hard earned income where it serves others than me. I will be happy to buy a place to live, furniture, appliances, car, TVs, room air conditioners, clothing, and whatever ‘tickles my fancy’, hire a maid, maybe a cook, and when I cannot drive, a driver. Also the local hospital, or hospitals I choose will receive my money to keep me healthy. Restaurants, stores, people, business owners, and others will be happy that I am frequently purchasing services, materials, food, and other from their establishments. Airlines and other forms of transportation will also receive some of my income occasionally. When I ‘bite the bullit’ someone can ship my frail carcass back to the USA for burial in a well deserved military cemetery. Story over.

 

I have ALL the paperwork, forms, proof of income, police criminal clearance letter completely devoid of any negative information, to apply for a ‘one-year’ NON O-A (retirement) VISA which I was planning on sending to the Thailand Consulate in Los Angeles this week. Now, that idea is ‘on hold’ for a few months. I still plan on doing the move but I am hoping that these immigrations changes will not get worse in the next few months. Yes, like others, it kind of appears that the governmental controls do not consider the positive effects we have on the kingdom and these wonderful Thai people.

 

It may not be contributing much to the Thai world financial standing but it sure doesn’t have any negative effect. I sincerely hope that the kingdom is happy to have me as a resident non-citizen and reflects that in some form of favorable consideration. BTW, I never rant!

[BritManToo]

36 minutes ago, HogRidr60 said:

As a single, 70 year old disabled veteran, even on a perpetual ‘splurge’, the chances of me spending that amount every month are unlikely, but that is me.

Better off in the Philippines, they even have a VA hospital and special VISA for USA veterans.

Why not get your 1 year Thai VISA, then pop over to PI for a few months to check that out too.

Flights are around $120-$150.

Edited February 3, 2019 by BritManToo

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, fruitman said:

Your village? This is exactly why they don't need 'poor' westerners here, they want the ones who spend 65k on a 7 days holiday.

A retiree who spends 40k per month ends up bringing 480k in the course of one year, which is still better than the 65k left by a careless tourist whom, having no connection with the country, doesn't mind what he leaves in his wake. 

 

How much of all the troubles we read on a daily basis (petty crimes, sexual assault or misconduct, littering of natural areas, monument defacing...) is the result of mass tourism, and how much is linked to out of control retirees? 

 

True enough, Thai authorities would gladly destroy what is left of their country just to collect a few extra bucks, but that doesn't mean that we have to support such policies... 

[Brunolem]

3 hours ago, Fairynuff said:

....and who doesn’t mind living with a Neanderthal 

What's with the Neanderthal thing? 

Are we talking racism here? 

[Fairynuff]

5 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

What's with the Neanderthal thing? 

Are we talking racism here? 

Explain how racism comes into my comment and I might be able to answer you, unless of course I missed your joke

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, Nyezhov said:

Well Im still young enough to want the throb of the big city. Maybe next year Ill go veg somewhere.

Of all the big cities, Bangkok probably takes the cake! 

 

Hottest city in the world

Also one of the most polluted, especially these days

World renowed traffic jams

Cost of living rising exponentially (starts a 160,000 baht per sqm says the ad) 

Constantly crowded, whether you are on the road, in the BTS, or trying to walk

 

Talk about throb... 

 

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Because of the influx of middle income and wealthy  Russians and Chinese, Thailand has the luxury of not worrying about  the westerners.

From an economic point of view, this is nonsense. 

 

The average Chinese doesn't make more than the average Thai, or said otherwise Chinese GDP per capita is very close to Thai GDP per capita, both being wayyyy below Western Europe GDP per capita. 

 

And don't even mention Russia which, as some US politician put it, is a gas station masquerading as an economy. 

 

So, despite Western Europeans being on average much wealthier than their Russian and Chinese counterparts, the Thais would be better off dropping Westerners and bet the farm on Russian mobsters and Chinese herds. 

 

Certainly makes sense, if one is an adept of Thai logic... 

[Brunolem]

27 minutes ago, Fairynuff said:

Explain how racism comes into my comment and I might be able to answer you, unless of course I missed your joke

It felt like Neanderthal was used in a pejorative way, but never mind... 

[Pattaya46]

28 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

The average Chinese doesn't make more than the average Thai, //

Maybe, but if you consider only the Chinese people who travel abroad (including in Thailand) they are nearly all from the very big Chinese cities, and incomes in these areas is far more than global China average. I remember reading (long ago already) that the monthly average in big cities was more than $1'000, more than in several European countries... and far more than Thailand...

[Baerboxer]

On 2/1/2019 at 4:20 PM, marcusarelus said:

Daft.  You must not have read the most recent rules. It is because of the brown envelopes that all the recent hassle has started.  BJ is trying to get rid of the brown envelopes to his people without firing them ergo retirees suffer and pay the price because of the brown envelopes not because they want brown envelopes but because they want to rid the system of the brown envelopes.  So you are 100% in error nuff said wink wink.

 

He/she is as right as you! The whole cause was brown envelopes. New regime and boss want to get rid - but want to avoid actually enforcing punishments for those who transgress; can't just outlaw the rogue agents who do it for whatever reasons; so come up with a convoluted system of more bureaucracy to attack the "customers" i.e. those seeking the extensions. They just love the tail wagging the dog and creating loads and loads more bureaucracy and paperwork to be stamped!

 

 

[FritsSikkink]

38 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

From an economic point of view, this is nonsense. 

 

The average Chinese doesn't make more than the average Thai, or said otherwise Chinese GDP per capita is very close to Thai GDP per capita, both being wayyyy below Western Europe GDP per capita. 

 

And don't even mention Russia which, as some US politician put it, is a gas station masquerading as an economy. 

 

So, despite Western Europeans being on average much wealthier than their Russian and Chinese counterparts, the Thais would be better off dropping Westerners and bet the farm on Russian mobsters and Chinese herds. 

 

Certainly makes sense, if one is an adept of Thai logic... 

You are comparing the wrong things. The poor pensioner has a lot less than the average Westerner AND the average Chinese isn't traveling to Thailand but the far above average does.

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

New regime and boss want to get rid

Unlikely - I'm betting he gets his share.

[JackThompson]

 

3 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

What are desirable, are the wealthy retirees.

Why is it one or the other?  The wealthy do not want to live where we do, eat where we do, etc - right?  The Chinese are not unable to come because Western pensioners are "in their way." 

 

As I have pointed out before, each one of us spends enough to support several Thai jobs with "free" foreign-money, so there is no significant "downside" to our being here.  In fact, they should make it easier for pensioners to stay now, given they have greatly lowered the quality of life in some areas, due to mass low-rate tourism. 

 

I do not mean every Chinese tourist is poor.  But those coming in on cheap package tours (the majority) are - relative to even poorer Western pensioners - and they degrade the quality of the experience for everyone else.  Western pensioners do not crowd-out others from visiting, or overburden the infrastructure by clogging up the airports, streets (with buses), etc.

 

3 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Sad to say, but the  higher end demographic of westerners left or is dying out. They are not picking Thailand. Because of the influx of middle income and wealthy  Russians and Chinese, Thailand has the luxury of not worrying about  the westerners.

Many Russians I have met are having problems with immigration staying too, and it is resulting in the closure of many businesses that served them.  After the ruble recovered, they started coming back - but immigration cranked up its "cracking down" to stop them (and the rest of us), doing a lot of damage to the businesses that served them.

[lamyai3]

2 hours ago, HogRidr60 said:

I have ALL the paperwork, forms, proof of income, police criminal clearance letter completely devoid of any negative information, to apply for a ‘one-year’ NON O-A (retirement) VISA which I was planning on sending to the Thailand Consulate in Los Angeles this week. Now, that idea is ‘on hold’ for a few months. I still plan on doing the move but I am hoping that these immigrations changes will not get worse in the next few months. Yes, like others, it kind of appears that the governmental controls do not consider the positive effects we have on the kingdom and these wonderful Thai people.

Fully agree your sentiments, but irrespective of your plans it might be advisable to get the visa anyway, in case they raise the bar on Non O-A applications too (compulsory insurance has already been mentioned as one possibility for new applications). The police and medical reports have a limited period of validity too, wait a few months and you'd need new ones. 

[newnative]

On 2/1/2019 at 4:53 PM, Brunolem said:

Older persons are less inclined to engage in big items purchases than younger ones. 

 

They need more money for small things, such as drinks on the beach, or a new Hawaiian shirt, but that's nothing compared with the amount required for the latest 60" flat screen, or a marble countertop for the kitchen, not to mention the education of the children. 

 

Many retirees can live a pleasant life in Thailand for much less than 65,000 baht per month. 

 

In my village, I wouldn't even know how to spend such an amount... 

 

   I disagree with your first sentence.  As an older person, in the past 12 months alone I've bought a new CR-V, a new Bangkok getaway condo, some fairly large big ticket items to furnish the condo, and about 220,000 baht in custom work to be done on the condo.  Also spent money on some travel trips, using local tour groups, and finished an expensive Pattaya condo renovation--lots and lots of big ticket items bought for that project, as well--and at least a couple dozen workers employed, too, to do all the work--plumbers, electricians, tilers, wood floor refinishers, window and window screen makers and installers, painters, granite counter installers, air con specialists, custom furniture makers and installers, wallpaper installers, plantation shutter makers and window blind makers and installers, and so on.

   I think my example backs up the OP's point that Thailand should be more welcoming to retirees.  I might spend a bit more than the average retiree but most of my retiree friends also have fixed up their houses or condos, drive late model cars, hire local Thais to do work for them, and so on.  And, of course, helping to keep many local business afloat year-round.  We contribute far more to the local economy than we are given credit for.

[Brunolem]

46 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

You are comparing the wrong things. The poor pensioner has a lot less than the average Westerner AND the average Chinese isn't traveling to Thailand but the far above average does.

The low end Western pensioner collects at least the equivalent of 30,000 baht per month, which makes him poor in his own country, but rather comfortable in Thailand, as long as he avoids the tourist traps. 

 

With 100,000 of them, Thailand gets 3 billion baht of extra spending in its economy, each month, month after month... what's not to like? 

 

And these retirees' footprint, spread over the whole country, is far less destructive than the footprint left by 100,000 high quality Chinese tourists roaming the same streets and beaches day after day. 

 

Meanwhile, I don't think that the tens of thousands of Chinese who follow the little flag, before getting back in their bus are members of the elite. 

 

The latter are more interested in buying mansions in Vancouver or Sydney, than in visiting Walking Street. 

[Brunolem]

2 minutes ago, newnative said:

   I might spend a bit more than the average retiree 

Just a bit more... 

 

One could say that you have been busy during these past months. 

 

After so many years in Thailand, I must say that I am not able to muster anymore the courage to engage into anything having to do with construction... never mind the money available to me. 

 

I'd rather preserve my mental sanity than dealing with the local "engineers", and the idea of supervising dozens of workers appears very unappealing... 

 

[BritManToo]

On 2/1/2019 at 4:53 PM, Brunolem said:

They need more money for small things, such as drinks on the beach, or a new Hawaiian shirt, but that's nothing compared with the amount required for the latest 60" flat screen, or a marble countertop for the kitchen, not to mention the education of the children. 

I bought a 60" flat screen last month, using it now as my computer monitor to post this.

It's very nice, but what has that got to do with retirees in Thailand, apart from me being one?

No marble counter-tops though, and my Thai kids attend government school.

Edited February 3, 2019 by BritManToo

[newnative]

2 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Just a bit more... 

 

One could say that you have been busy during these past months. 

 

After so many years in Thailand, I must say that I am not able to muster anymore the courage to engage into anything having to do with construction... never mind the money available to me. 

 

I'd rather preserve my mental sanity than dealing with the local "engineers", and the idea of supervising dozens of workers appears very unappealing... 

 

  Whether a retiree spends a lot or a little, it all goes to help maintain the local economy.  Hopefully, Thailand will come to realize that and loosen up some of its requirements for retirees. 

[Fairynuff]

4 minutes ago, newnative said:

  Whether a retiree spends a lot or a little, it all goes to help maintain the local economy.  Hopefully, Thailand will come to realize that and loosen up some of its requirements for retirees. 

Don’t hold your breath

[JLCrab]

Per the topic heading Thailand should welcome retirees:

 

I don't want to be welcomed. I want to be ignored.