Marriage/Retirement - Interpretations explained.

[KhunFred]

I wish I could keep from falling asleep while reading it.

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

Some IOs are reported to be asking for documentation in excess of official TI rules, though. CM is reported to be have been requiring proof of "pension" income in addition to Embassy letters for some time now.

It's a confusing mess!

[Sheryl]

5 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Confirmed in police order No. 35/2561, for the combi method the terms refer you back to Item 4), which states the balance must not become less than 400,000. Do you have any order denying that or is it misinterpreted in your view.

It does not state "the balance must not become less than 400,000". Rather it refers back to prior paragraphs that discussed a completely different method, leaving it to the reader to guess how to apply what was in that paragraph (which concerned people with 800K lump sum) to combo method where lump sum amount could be anything. Multipkle interpretations abound both among TV members and IOs.

 

To add to the confusion, when people - both TV posters and, I suspect, IOs - - talk about balances for the combo method they may mean either of 2 very different things: (1) the balance in the bank of the lump sum portion  or (2) the balance in the bank of the lump sum portion PLUS monthly income for the year (monthly income x 12).  These are very, very different things! And a lot of the confusion we have had in talking about this stems from it.

 

If the balance that is physically in the bank at any point in time must never be less than 400K  (some say 800K, others 800k for 3 months then 400k) then many people will be required to have a combination income + lump sum of much more than 800k. Which makes no sense and is inconsistent with the opening sentence in that section of the police order.

 

I'd suggest people be very clear in talking about this what they mean by "balance" and spell it out i.e. "sum of the lump sum on deposit plus 12 months income" if that is what they mean.

 

 

[Sheryl]

25 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Their is no seasoning period for the combo.

It's an annual combination of funds and income totalling 800K.

The income can be immediately spent, but how much you could withdraw on the funds, depends on your monthly income and how much you have in funds.

 

If you have an income of 40K per month, then you need 320K in funds.

The 320K would then have to remain in the bank for the full 12 months, or you'll have fallen below the 800K.

 

If you have an income of 40K per month, but had 600K in funds, then you could withdraw 280K of the funds.

The fund on deposit portion does not need to be in the bank 3 months before application? To my reading it does, same as the 800K.

[sfokevin]

58 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

By the way - I can prove  I get  income 65K per month with 1 letter and then prove it again and where it is  taken out in Thailand at an ATM Another sheet of paper.  Written in English 2 sheets of paper- plus 4 ATM cards from the US.  Too much for the IO?  

Keep us posted with how you make out with your next extension... 

[bigginhill]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

The money in the FD securing the CC is not accessible while you still have the card, so fails the requirement for retirement Ext. 

ok. but it is accessibile  through the credit card as the fixed deposit guarantees the sums spent on the credit card. No?

Edited February 14, 2019 by bigginhill
bad spelling :-(

[sfokevin]

11 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

The fund on deposit portion does not need to be in the bank 3 months before application? To my reading it does, same as the 800K.

I would agree that the bank balance in a combo method must be seasoned 3 months... Prior to the 3 month mark one should do an analysis/estimate of the previous nine months of income transfers in plus a estimate of the next three months and then adjust/fund the bank balance to insure the 800k total at extension day...

Edited February 14, 2019 by sfokevin

[Thaidream]

28 minutes ago, sfokevin said:

Keep us posted with how you make out with your next extension..

yes- plan on doing it that way but will of course have the income transferred in when they undoubtedly say no can do.

[Kenny202]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

I'll try and clarify it another way.

 

At the point of making a combo application, you will need to supply 2 forms of evidence.

1. Funds deposited in a Thai bank.

2. The previous 12 months income deposited in a Thai bank account.

How much was your income deposited each month - 40K.

So 40K x 12 = 480K, meaning you must have 320K in funds.

You can immediately spend the 40K income each month, but if you only had 320K in funds, you can't draw down on it because you would be under the 800K minimum requirement.

 

The greater you can transfer each month, the less the funds have to be, or,

The greater the funds, then the lesser the income requirements.

It's flexible to meet either your income capacity, or your funds capacity.

Provided the two add up to 800K when your applying for the extension.

 

You can supply an Embassy letter as an alternative for the proof of income.

This statement is ambiguous to me....

You can immediately spend the 40K income each month, but if you only had 320K in funds, you can't draw down on it because you would be under the 800K minimum requirement.

 

I could interpret that 2 ways...The calculation above adds up to 800k

320k deposited and not touched for 12 months

480k monthly deposits of 40k per month

 

Are you saying the monthly deposits I can deposit from abroad then immediately withdraw leaving only the lump sum of 320k in the bank untouched all year?

So at the end of the year the sum of total deposits would equal 800k but during the year the actual balance in the bank will be well under 800k?

 

Or are you saying that I could only draw down on amounts over and above the monthly deposits and lump sum deposit if I had deposited money over and above 800k? (320 + 480k)

 

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Kenny202

[Justin Side]

33 Pages. ????????⚰️

[steve73]

I'm still concerned about the income method (and possibly also the combo).  You may have a fixed pension income of say 1500GBP/mon but due to varying exchange rates it does not give a fixed THB.  

 

This time last year, 1500GBP would have given you just over 65k bt.  Now it would be less than 60k.  Clearly the income method would now fail.

 

So you could try to ensure you have kept some funds in your bank above a certain minimum for the seasoning period.... But how much?

Will the I/O use the total income, or use the lowest income X12.

 

If he is happy to use the total figure for the year, then it open the possibility for using quarterly income, and if your quarterly income is over 200k/qtr, then this should be acceptable for to 100% income method.

 

I would suggest that anyone who is intending to use an income OR combo method to support an extension during the rest of this year should visit their local office as soon as possible and discuss exactly what will be required or expected.   As a minimum, I would expect them to want to see regular monthly deposits to your Thai bank from Jan 2018 at the latest (which of course may already be too late for some, so perhaps a double deposit this months would suffice).

 

I will be doing my extension soon using the seasoned funds method, but I intend exploring the possibility of moving to a combo method in the following year.

[AjarnMartin]

K. Tanoshi,

When referring to the Retirement Extension under 2.22, I take it that a letter from an Embassy regarding Income is NOT AN ADDITIONAL requirement to the depositing of the requisite monthly monies into a Thai Bank.

After all, it is the TI’s demands on our Embassies that has caused them to remove this facility, so therefore impossible!

Thanks

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

The fund on deposit portion does not need to be in the bank 3 months before application? To my reading it does, same as the 800K.

Not on the figures being mentioned to just reach the 800K requirement for the year.

You'd have to leave the funds in the bank all year round to meet the 800K total for the year.

 

If you had 500K in funds and an income of 50K per month totalling 1,100,000 per annum, then you can draw down 300,000 on the funds, 3 months after the extension is issued. In that scenario the 3 months seasoning of the funds is required before you can withdraw.

 

Crazy and not surprised everyone is confused, but that's exactly how it was demonstrated to me.

Like yourself I'm hoping this meeting next week irons some of these issues out.

As I've stated before, I think the 2 months, then 3 months after has been misinterpreted by every IO.

I believe it was meant to read 2 months (1st app), then 3 months before next app.

Even then according to the order you'd still have to leave 400K in the bank.

 

Personally if that's how it stood for the funds and combi method, I'd be switching to the income method if I could afford the 65K per month transfer.

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

I could interpret that 2 ways...The calculation above adds up to 800k

320k deposited and not touched for 12 months

480k monthly deposits of 40k per month

 

Are you saying the monthly deposits I can deposit from abroad then immediately withdraw leaving only the lump sum of 320k in the bank untouched all year?

So at the end of the year the sum of total deposits would equal 800k but during the year the actual balance in the bank will be well under 800k?

Yes.

 

2 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

Or are you saying that I could only draw down on amounts over and above the monthly deposits and lump sum deposit if I had deposited money over and above 800k? (320 + 480k)

You can withdraws the income deposits immediately for your living expenses.

You can draw down on your funds provided the combined total doesn't fall below 800K per annum.

Read post 481 above.

 

With a meeting set next week to clarify this new order about funds and combo methods, it would be better in my opinion to now wait for the outcome of that meeting. I could have been told a load of '<deleted>', then again it could be correct.

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, steve73 said:

This time last year, 1500GBP would have given you just over 65k bt.  Now it would be less than 60k.  Clearly the income method would now fail.

 

So you could try to ensure you have kept some funds in your bank above a certain minimum for the seasoning period.... But how much?

Will the I/O use the total income, or use the lowest income X12.

 

If he is happy to use the total figure for the year, then it open the possibility for using quarterly income, and if your quarterly income is over 200k/qtr, then this should be acceptable for to 100% income method.

Depends what your using for proof of income.

Embassy letter will be in a foreign currency and converted by the IO using the BKK exchange rate for that day.

Incomes transferred into a Thai bank account will be in baht.

 

It's a minimum of 65K per month. Anything under 65K for even 1 month could disqualifies your application.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Tanoshi

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, AjarnMartin said:

K. Tanoshi,

When referring to the Retirement Extension under 2.22, I take it that a letter from an Embassy regarding Income is NOT AN ADDITIONAL requirement to the depositing of the requisite monthly monies into a Thai Bank.

After all, it is the TI’s demands on our Embassies that has caused them to remove this facility, so therefore impossible!

Thanks

Either, an Embassy letter, OR, Thai bank statements + bank letter.

[Sheryl]

35 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Not on the figures being mentioned to just reach the 800K requirement for the year.

You'd have to leave the funds in the bank all year round to meet the 800K total for the year.

 

If you had 500K in funds and an income of 50K per month totalling 1,100,000 per annum, then you can draw down 300,000 on the funds, 3 months after the extension is issued. In that scenario the 3 months seasoning of the funds is required before you can withdraw.

 

Crazy and not surprised everyone is confused, but that's exactly how it was demonstrated to me.

Like yourself I'm hoping this meeting next week irons some of these issues out.

As I've stated before, I think the 2 months, then 3 months after has been misinterpreted by every IO.

I believe it was meant to read 2 months (1st app), then 3 months before next app.

Even then according to the order you'd still have to leave 400K in the bank.

 

Personally if that's how it stood for the funds and combi method, I'd be switching to the income method if I could afford the 65K per month transfer.

So even the first time one does this, they do not need to season the lumo sum deposit?

 

 

BTW I think it goes without saying that people can spend down amounts in excess of what is required for the extension and it just confuses things to give examples of that - no one is asking if they can spend funds that are in excess of the  800k total, they are asking about the 800k funds.

[Tanoshi]

10 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

So even the first time one does this, they do not need to season the lumo sum deposit?

It would have to be seasoned for 2 months before, exactly the same as the funds method.

 

11 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

BTW I think it goes without saying that people can spend down amounts in excess of what is required for the extension and it just confuses things to give examples of that - no one is asking if they can spend funds that are in excess of the  800k total, they are asking about the 800k funds.

You obviously haven't read every post.

They do indeed want to know what they can spend down on from the funds, if possible.

[sandrabbit]

On 2/11/2019 at 5:41 PM, Tanoshi said:

Sorry, never saw your original post, but can answer your question as I faced the same problem when I changed from retirement to marriage extensions. I just opened a separate account with 500K in it and used that for the marriage extension.

They can hardly force you into the retirement extension if you only show them less than 800K.

had a small fight with head of Rayong imm a few years ago and forced him to change me to a marriage extension even though I had more than enough for retirement and it looks like I did the right thing. I said to him at the time that the rules might change and wanted to make a marriage extension before the rules got worse.

[jacko45k]

9 hours ago, bigginhill said:

ok. but it is accessibile  through the credit card as the fixed deposit guarantees the sums spent on the credit card. No?

Not in my case. The CC is actually paid in full from a savings account, and I believe this is a requirement and the FD remains stoically untouched. 

You can't draw any of the money out, how can that be construed as money to live on? (Just as much as the money being locked to 800/400/800 minimums as it is now, is the truth!)

[baggies666]

9 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

 

 

With a meeting set next week to clarify this new order about funds and combo methods, it would be better in my opinion to now wait for the outcome of that meeting. I could have been told a load of '<deleted>', then again it could be correct.

@Tanoshi

do you know what date the meeting has been set?, I am intrested in combi method

[DepDavid]

 

I did. I was referring to the OP


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[Martian]

"2.18 Marriage extensions.

Funds deposited in a Thai bank.

400K deposited in a Thai bank for 2 months prior to the date of application.

Passbook or bank statement + bank letter as proof.

After the extension is granted you can withdraw part or all funds."

 

So, is it correct that if you are on an O visa based upon marriage the financial requirement hasn't changed if using the deposit method, you need to have 400,000 Baht properly aged before initial application/renewal with no balance requirement after approval?

 

Apparently the "balance after approval" requirement is only with retirement O visas?

 

Thank you.

[Martian]

On 2/12/2019 at 9:21 AM, keemapoot said:

Yes, true for the visa, but I think the presumption is that even if you are "retired" from work abroad, with a marriage visa in Thailand you can still work and obtain a work permit.

 

Of course you can always also opt to renew your marriage extension to stay using the Thai income but in that case you are better off renewing using a non-B extension because the marriage extension is more trouble.

The marriage extension may require more documentation and steps but your employer no longer has control over your ability to stay in Thailand with your wife/family. In essence, on a non-b, your employer has leverage over you because if they fire you or you quit, they can cancel your work permit AND your NON B immediately. You're left scrambling to get out of the country within 24 hours or getting to an immigration office within 24 hours to buy a 7 day extension for 1,900 Baht or go into overstay. Personally, I prefer NOT to allow an employer to have that kind of leverage over me so the extra hassles with extending a Non-O based upon marriage are worth it. Of course I always get the "why don't you do a retirement visa, it's easier" from the IO but I want to work. Now, the new O retirement visa financial rules make a marriage non-o seem even more worth it.

[Martian]

On 2/12/2019 at 12:10 PM, wobalt said:

The marriage extension way is technically much to complex, so at the time being I still stay on the old 1 year visa way.


Gesendet von iPad mit Thaivisa Connect

It's only complex the first time and if you were married outside of Thailand. If married outside of Thailand, you need to get marriage certificates officially translated and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs approval (you need this for your foreign passport anyways). This approval is usually taken care of by the translation office for an additional fee. I think the official translation, MFA approvals and express mail of documents were a total of 4,500 Baht and handled by the translation business. After the first time, you just make copies of all your previous documents, get a new Kor-ror printed and certified (they're good for one year and free at my local Amphur office), then take some new pictures, get the bank statements/letters, apply and wait for the visit to your home from the immigration office. This is far better than having to have the extra money in the bank for a retirement O or worrying about being able to stay in Thailand on your NON B if your employer wants to play games, if you are working.

[steve73]

13 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

16 hours ago, steve73 said:

This time last year, 1500GBP would have given you just over 65k bt.  Now it would be less than 60k.  Clearly the income method would now fail.

 

So you could try to ensure you have kept some funds in your bank above a certain minimum for the seasoning period.... But how much?

Will the I/O use the total income, or use the lowest income X12.

 

If he is happy to use the total figure for the year, then it open the possibility for using quarterly income, and if your quarterly income is over 200k/qtr, then this should be acceptable for to 100% income method.

Depends what your using for proof of income.

Embassy letter will be in a foreign currency and converted by the IO using the BKK exchange rate for that day.

Incomes transferred into a Thai bank account will be in baht.

 

It's a minimum of 65K per month. Anything under 65K for even 1 month could disqualifies your application.

Edited 13 hours ago by Tanoshi

I was planning on trying to use Thai bank deposits for proof of income, hopefully using income alone, but if the actual arrival amount falls below 65k (due to a further drop in Fx), then trying instead for the combo.  But should the seasoned savings amount be based on total annual deposits or the lowest monthly deposit x12. 

 

I'm thinking it through as a possible method for my next extension rather than the upcoming one... I want to make sure all the ducks are lined up, and there will be no nasty surprises that could be (relatively) easily avoided with a little foresight.

 

[wobalt]

It's only complex the first time and if you were married outside of Thailand. If married outside of Thailand, you need to get marriage certificates officially translated and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs approval (you need this for your foreign passport anyways). This approval is usually taken care of by the translation office for an additional fee. I think the official translation, MFA approvals and express mail of documents were a total of 4,500 Baht and handled by the translation business. After the first time, you just make copies of all your previous documents, get a new Kor-ror printed and certified (they're good for one year and free at my local Amphur office), then take some new pictures, get the bank statements/letters, apply and wait for the visit to your home from the immigration office. This is far better than having to have the extra money in the bank for a retirement O or worrying about being able to stay in Thailand on your NON B if your employer wants to play games, if you are working.

I apply for a marriage non O visa, not for retirement or work.


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[Martian]

On 2/12/2019 at 12:18 PM, spidermike007 said:

Immigration here is sickening. They such such disdain for foreigners. The recent pronouncement that they want good guys here, is absolutely fake news, and total deflection from the extreme paranoia, xenophobia, and fear of outsiders, gripping this pathetic, incompetent, hapless administration and the useless army. Closing the loopholes was only a small part of the recent reforms. They are largely aimed at reducing the ex-pat population, in my opinion, and discouraging more Western ex-pats from moving here. Returned from immigration recently, after renewing my marriage visa. The upside to this visa, is that only 400,000 is needed as a deposit, and it does not have to stay in the bank, once your visa is granted. The downsides are:

 

The hurdles you need to jump over, in order to get a marriage visa are stupid, ridiculous, unnecessary, draconian, wasteful, and silly. I understand the need for them to verify that you are a legitimate couple. Upon the first application. But, the dumb requirements should not relate to renewals. You should not be required to show fresh images of the house each time, copies of the marriage papers, the house documents, either come with a local Thai witness, or bring a signed affidavit from a local Thai each time, provide new maps to the house, and dozens of other requirements.

 

I just do not even know what to say about the process. I felt like a street dog by the time I left. After hours of paperwork, copy after copy after copy, each page having to be signed, and then being grilling by the surly officer, I literally felt like a street dog. The level of disrespect that immigration shows married couples here, and foreigners in general, is totally uncalled for, beyond the pale, and inane. The copy woman, the guy sorting our papers, they were all nice. But, the officers? Such sourpusses. The woman who was helping us was so difficult to work with, when she finally rejected us over the tiniest thing she did not like, after nearly an hour of reviewing every document with a microscope, so to speak, and said no, I responded by saying yes. YES, you are going to do this. Yes, you are going to do this right now. YES, you are going to stop saying NO to me right now. This ends now. She looked at me and did not know what to say. I asked for the manager. The top brass came over, and we had it sorted in 30 minutes. Took nearly 3 hours. And as usual, it will be a month, until I have final approval. Is it worth it? NO. It is my last marriage visa. I will go back to a retirement visa next year, or leave the country, before I subject myself to that abuse one more time.

 

There is absolutely no need, that I can think of, to do this each and every year. It is nonsensical for everyone involved, to keep repeating the same steps over, and over, and over. It is humiliating, it is demeaning, it is disrespectful, it is petty, it is churlish. It is so wasteful. It is so unnecessary. It accomplishes nothing. It causes inconvenience to both foreigners and Thais. Immigration here really has it wrong. They could be doing so much better. I totally blame Prayuth, and the biggest joke. Immigration has gotten worse under their tutelage and their arrogance, and their insufferable xenophobia knows no bounds. This whole thing leaves a bitter, sour, nasty, foul taste in one's mouth, and the stench can be smelled for kilometers. It also leaves a rather bad feeling toward our hosts. They could be doing so much better. In my opinion alot of us bring alot to the table here. Thailand is moving backwards on so many levels, I do not even know where to begin. 

•  

This is the type of BS that those who try to game the system place upon others that aren't trying to game the system. Governments globally are allowing the rule breakers, criminals and irresponsible to dictate for the rule respecting and law abiding people. Many new laws are made because of the statistically few that don't want to abide by rules and laws, which is utterly ridiculous. I share your opinion about due diligence for the first marriage O but subsequent marriage O visa renewals should be less involved. Even so, I will continue with marriage renewals because of the lower financial requirements and the ability to work. If you don't want to work and have the money, a retirement O is the way to go. I've heard that in some jurisdictions, they aren't allowing work on a marriage O because so many foreigners (most not from western countries) are entering into scam marriages in order to work....again, scammers (including Thai citizens) ruining it for others. So if you have an acquaintance who's gaming the system and they ask why do you care.....this is why....they're mucking it up for everyone else.

[Martian]

On 2/14/2019 at 10:07 AM, ddotmark said:

Agree with your comments.  If the Thai Immigration relies on "pension only money" for monthly income that's going to be a problem for many Americans.

 

In the US people have multiple means of saving for their retirement other than just relying on a pension or Social Security. I receive money from a 401(b) retirement account, 403(b) deferred compensation account, Individual Retirement Account (IRA), stock dividends, company pension account, a retirement annuity and Social Security.  Does Thai Immigration even know what a 401(k), 403(b), an IRA account or what an Annuity is? I think not. These are retirement accounts and retirement income. And, are they really going to sit there and wade through all of the monthly documents, perform the calculations and then cross check these against my monthly income transfers over the course of a year.

 

My plan is to have moneys form these various retirement accounts deposited into my US checking account then transferred, as a lump sum each month (to save on a multitude of transfer fees), to my Bangkok Bank account.

 

What a nightmare they could create for themselves (Immigration) and us (retirees).

 

PS...I have not yet retired in Thailand, but plan to latter this year.  Fortunately, I have time to see how this all shakes out.  For those of you living there already on retirement or marriage visa's, my heart aches for you.

Why does your heart ache for those on marriage visas? Please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see a change to the current requirements. 400,000 in the bank 3 months before renewal and no balance requirement after that. The only caveat is the hurdles and whoops to jump through for the visa (most difficult collecting documents the first time).....it's just a step by step thing once a year really.

[Martian]

On 2/14/2019 at 10:32 AM, Hindy said:

Besides the obvious guys and the money.

What is the technical difference between a retirement visa and a marriage visa.

I am eligible for both,Which one should i go for?

Depends upon what the obvious to you is. The biggest difference is the money and a marriage visa allows you to work (with a work permit, of course) but a retirement visa prohibits working.