Worth Airconditioning My House?

[taotoo]

Hi, first post from me - hoping to benefit from your collective wisdom! I want to install aircon in my house, but fear it may be a lost cause.

Right now it's about 30 deg inside, but I know from last year it will average about 35 during the hot season. It always feels a few degrees cooler when I go outside. I've tried using a big fan to blow air through the house but it doesn't seem to help a lot. I suspect little effort was made when the house was built to keep it cool.

The wall you can see in the first picture faces approx north-east and I think heats up during the morning, and is warm to the touch. I guess it's just a single layer of either those thin breeze blocks or those small red bricks. The metal roller doors to the front seem to heat up during the afternoon, and get fairly hot.

As you can see in the second picture, there is a false ceiling. There doesn't appear to be any ventilation in the roof, and suspect there isn't any insulation either. The interior walls dividing the houses stop at the point of the false ceiling i.e. the void above the false ceiling spans the entire length of the building.

We actually rent the second unit along as well, suspect this may be cooler but I like to keep that as a shield between me and noise generated from the other units.

So....I'm thinking that given the construction of the house, any aircon is likely to be running flat out all day struggling to fight off the heat, with the cool air leaking out through holes in

the roller door etc.

The house is about 44 sq.m or 140 cubic m. Any comments gratefully received.

[GuestHouse]

A couple of suggestions, the first is FIRE SAFETY.

I strongly recommend that you consider closing the wall in your roof space that seperates your unit from the neighbour's unit.

The reason I say this is SMOKE... Smoke, not Fire is the killer, and if there is a fire in any of the buildings in the row you and your family could be aesphixiated with smoke or worse still, poisonous fumes from paint/chemicals/fules stored by your neighbours.

The sepearation wall will also keep sneek theives out, or at least make it more difficult for them to get in.

Also be aware that the following measures to keep heat out will not be as effective if you have hot air coming in from the building next door.

Keeping the heat out.

There are a number of easy(ish) options.

Firstly and esiest is to put a covering of bulk insulation in your roof space. (In the past this was fibreglass, but other options are available ie rock wool) 4~6 inches of this bulk insulation laid above your ceiling tiles will greatly reduce the heating within the house. I've shown this as a green line on your photo. See below.

Secondly you could try putting some vents in, essentially windows (Complete with bars and bug screens) these usually have louvered covers to let air through but not let rain in. I've represented these as yellow boxes on your photo. If you take this option insist on the bars and bug screens and be absolutely sure the builder installs a lintle (Cross beam) above the vent hole to maintain the strength of the wall.

Finally, if you want to reduce heat gain further, consider reflective aluminium foil below your roof tiles (See red line below). This reflects heat away from the house but may be difficult to retro fit because working under your false ceiling is not going to be easy.

Edited February 26, 2007 by GuestHouse

[GuestHouse]

Just thought I should mention.

If you go the bulk insulation route, make sure you get either fibre glass or rock wool.

Absolutely refuse to have polistyrene of any kind of foam (like the stuff they put in furnature).

Either of these two would be highly flammable and highly toxic when burning.

[taotoo]

Hello Guesthouse - thanks for the great (and very quick) reply!

I probably didn't make it very clear, but we rent this house so we would have to clear anything we did with the landlord first, and also I would obviously want to keep the cost down.

Building up the dividing wall sounds like a good idea, but I would need to consider that it would probably entail some disruption for our neighbour. I take your point re security as well, though I kind of think if somebody wants to break in, they're going to manage it one way or the other. I imagine they could get in through our front/back door easily enough.

The rockwool idea sounds easy to implement - I wonder if that might also slow down any toxic fumes entering. I presume I can just pick this up in HomePro or somewhere.

The vents and particularly the reflective foil sound good to me, but again the fact we're renting may be a problem.

It's crazy because I go to my girlfriend's family's traditional style house and it feels about ten degrees colder there. I have no idea why they even build houses like mine at all.

If I can trouble you further, if I went with the rockwool only, do you think it would be worth adding aircon, or would it be fighting a losing battle?

Thanks again for your help!

[The Dan Sai Kid]

With all due respect, why don't you just move and get something decent?

EDIT: Where are you btw?

Edited February 26, 2007 by The Dan Sai Kid

[GuestHouse]

If you want to keep the cost down I'd just add the rock wool and get yourself some fans.

[taotoo]

With all due respect, why don't you just move and get something decent?

EDIT: Where are you btw?

That's a fair question. Probably mostly because there's nothing decent around here. I sometimes consider building something, but i quite like living in the community rather than separating myself off in a mini-palace with a wall around it. I like knowing that I can move anytime I want. I can tolerate the noise and other small annoyances better than I probably would if I'd just built my dreamhouse and knew I wouldn't be able to sell it. We get on with the neighbours, I don't think I'm particularly seen as a rich westerner - don't feel we're going to get broken into any minute. We're in the countryside in Phitsanulok.

[taotoo]

If you want to keep the cost down I'd just add the rock wool and get yourself some fans.

Thanks GuestHouse, I'll do the Rockwool. I don't mind paying for aircon, more concerned about the hassle to effectiveness ratio. I'll start with fans and see how it goes...

Thanks again for your help!

[tutsiwarrior]

I would tell Da Kid ta get fcuked...I live inna shophouse and it is perfectly adequate accommodation, although I have two floors...

I would suggest installing a sliding glass door arrangement behind the roller door with 100% glass on the open aspect...easy to do and cheap...all made to order from a local person...this is what we have at our house...easy enuf then to put in a split A/C unit; ye just need to be creative about where to put the outside compressor unit...also follow Guest House recommendation regarding insulation in de ceiling space; de A/C ain't much good if the heat ingress exceeds the capacity ob de A/C to remove it...

Edited February 26, 2007 by tutsiwarrior

[HenryLongfellow]

One of those roof ventilators would do a good job of extracting the heat from the roof cavity and would make a big difference.

Edited February 26, 2007 by HenryLongfellow

[chownah]

Taotoo,

Can you do light carpentry work and do you have access to tools? Do you worry about making improvements and then having to leave and losing them?

Chownah

[taotoo]

I'm very impressed by and grateful for all the help being offered.

Tutsiwarrior: The sliding door sounds like a great idea, in fact my girlfriend just suggested that a couple of minutes ago. I've just checked the roof and there's definately no foil there, so will add the insulation above the ceiling tiles. They're held up by some thin wire so I hope they can take the weight.

Henry: I take it you mean a single extractor fan type thing. Sounds like that would be fairly easy to install and something the landlord wouldn't have a problem with.

Thank you to everybody who's replied!

[londonthai]

if you believe that your north-east wall gets hot from the morning sun than plant some fast growing trees/shrubs.

owners of all units should chip in to make at least 2 attic windows, possible more, (at your unit and at the other end of the building), same goes for the roof funs.

all the work/material should be payed by the landlord and not by you - especially that you are renting 2 units (probably from this same landlord). You can do some work DIY and charge the landlord at least some minimal wage.

[taotoo]

Taotoo,

Can you do light carpentry work and do you have access to tools? Do you worry about making improvements and then having to leave and losing them?

Chownah

Hi Chownah - thanks for the reply. I'm not bothered about having to leave improvements, up to a point. I'm not sure where I would draw the line though.

I think I'd rather pay a local to do any work, partly to contribute a little to the neighbourhood and partly so as not to be seen doing something that could be construed as taking work away from Thai's. That and the fact I'd probably screw it up anyway!

[taotoo]

if you believe that your north-east wall gets hot from the morning sun than plant some fast growing trees/shrubs.

owners of all units should chip in to make at least 2 attic windows, possible more, (at your unit and at the other end of the building), same goes for the roof funs.

all the work/material should be payed by the landlord and not by you - especially that you are renting 2 units (probably from this same landlord). You can do some work DIY and charge the landlord at least some minimal wage.

Hello Londonthai. I'm sure right that planting trees would be a good thing to do. I'm not sure who owns that land, maybe the landlords brother. I'll mention trees to him and see what's what.

I'm not sure how far I'll get asking the other tennants to chip in. I suspect they wouldn't be to receptive to the idea. I might ask the landlord if I can put in a window at my end, suggest a second one, and see what kind of a response I get. From what he paid t

 build the units, and what he charges in rent it's going to take him 20 years to get his investment back - my girlfriend thinks he just did it to have some land to pass on to his childre

 at a later date. I'm not sure he's too bothered about it as a commercial venture so probably not too keen on 

pending money on it. It's maybe best if my girlfriend talks to him and gets feel for what he's prepared to do. Thanks for the suggestions, it's given me something to consider.

[tutsiwarrior]

I'm very impressed by and grateful for all the help being offered.

Tutsiwarrior: The sliding door sounds like a great idea, in fact my girlfriend just suggested that a couple of minutes ago. I've just checked the roof and there's definately no foil there, so will add the insulation above the ceiling tiles. They're held up by some thin wire so I hope they can take the weight.

Henry: I take it you mean a single extractor fan type thing. Sounds like that would be fairly easy to install and something the landlord wouldn't have a problem with.

Thank you to everybody who's replied!

I wouldn't worry too much about the weight of the ceiling insulation...a 6" thick fiberglass mat won't add much to the load that's already there...Home Pro in Rangsit has some nice R - 23, 6" thick, fiberglass insulation mats; they ain't cheap but make a world of difference...an' don't bother with A/C without them...I put in a 2 ton split unit in my uninsulated house without and could only feel the A/C effect when standing right in front of the blower; the rest of the 4 x 10 meter space was a hot box...with the addition of the insulation the difference was incredible...depending on how you like to sleep (I like a duvet) a fan could suffice...

be wise...

Edited February 26, 2007 by tutsiwarrior

[chanchao]

I think you can still live in the community but NOT have to resort to renting a shoebox. Build something cheap & cool. Quality of life will improve heaps if you just let it.

[taotoo]

I think you can still live in the community but NOT have to resort to renting a shoebox. Build something cheap & cool. Quality of life will improve heaps if you just let it.

Yeah maybe you're right Chanchao. It's not the wealthiest part of Thailand up here, which is something I try to remember. When I first came here I didn't even want to buy a car for fear of appearing ostentatious, but did and don't regret it.

[taotoo]

I'm very impressed by and grateful for all the help being offered.

Tutsiwarrior: The sliding door sounds like a great idea, in fact my girlfriend just suggested that a couple of minutes ago. I've just checked the roof and there's definately no foil there, so will add the insulation above the ceiling tiles. They're held up by some thin wire so I hope they can take the weight.

Henry: I take it you mean a single extractor fan type thing. Sounds like that would be fairly easy to install and something the landlord wouldn't have a problem with.

Thank you to everybody who's replied!

I wouldn't worry too much about the weight of the ceiling insulation...a 6" thick fiberglass mat won't add much to the load that's already there...Home Pro in Rangsit has some nice R - 23, 6" thick, fiberglass insulation mats; they ain't cheap but make a world of difference...an' don't bother with A/C without them...I put in a 2 ton split unit in my uninsulated house without and could only feel the A/C effect when standing right in front of the blower; the rest of the 4 x 10 meter space was a hot box...with the addition of the insulation the difference was incredible...depending on how you like to sleep (I like a duvet) a fan could suffice...

be wise...

Thanks Tutsiwarrior, will heed your advice.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

I think you can still live in the community but NOT have to resort to renting a shoebox. Build something cheap & cool. Quality of life will improve heaps if you just let it.

That was sort of what I meant. I didn't mean to cause offence - which I obviously did to Tutsiwarrior (sorry Tuts ). I did see your car parked outside - so I did guess it wasn't an issue of money. I lived in Phitsanulok for a very short time - there is a real lack of decent rentals. Most of the ones we saw would have required a bit of work before they would have been livable and there were other ones that had obviously not been lived in for months, if not years - yet the landlords would say the previous occupiers had moved out the day before!!. We eventually rented a grotty condo - but I couldn't stand it!!

We came up with a better solution - move to Chiang Mai!!

[chownah]

Taotoo,

Without some idea about how much you want to spend it is hard to suggest things. Do you think that if you offered to buy the materials that your landlord would offer to hire the labor to do this stuff?

The NE facing wall can be cheaply shaded with shade cloth. Just hanging it on the wall will not be a very efficient way to use it since there needs to be some space between it and the wall for it to cool the wall efficiently. You or your friend could probably locate some bamboo that you could cut. The simplest thing would be to use some long pieces (probably two or three would do) and just lean them up against the wall like a lean-to using one or two horizontal pieces at the top to stabilize the top. Then drape the shade cloth on this bamboo frame. Get the 80% shade cloth and you could even put it on double thick. If you are on a really strict budget you could have a local show you how to make bamboo tieing strips and use them to tie the bamboo poles...or for 30 baht or so you could buy some iron wire like they use for tieing rebar used in construction or you could even buy some plastic twine and tie them with that. Of course you could do a more complicated design...all the way up to a bent bamboo art nouveau masterpiece...just depends on your time and interest and skill development.

Bamboo is a good and cheap building material. You could buy some white bead board (polystyrene foam bead insulation) and put it along the walls and then cover it with bamboo mats. A quick way to do this is to tie the bead board to the bamboo mat and then hang the mat on the wall or your roll up door with the foam hidden and the bamboo mat exposed. You could put these on the ceiling too. If this was done carefully to avoid large gaps (maybe tape the gaps with wide packing tape or do two layers of foam with the gaps staggered and taped) I think you could get good insulative factor and probably just as good as a standard type of installation. One thing to remember is that all this stuff is flammable so you need to evaluate that risk too. If you are worried abuot the flammability then you might consider using thin (about 5mm) cement boards in a light frame covering the white bead board. Of course the cement board is made with asbestos (the kind that is claimed to be safe though) so if that's a concern (its not for me, my entire ceiling and the roof of our house are made from it and I've read about it on the internet and I'm convinced that its safe) then maybe you wouldn't want that either.....you probably can't get away from the asbestos as long as you are renting cheap accomodations.

Chownah

[Cyberstar]

I'm not sure he's too bothered about it as a commercial venture so probably not too keen on spending money on it. It's maybe best if my girlfriend talks to him and gets feel for what he's prepared to do. Thanks for the suggestions, it's given me something to consider.

You might have better luck by asking for a lower rent rather than asking for him to pull money out of his pocket. First thing, of course, is to get him hooked on the idea that these things actually improve the value of his house. Don't mention money/rent-deduction until he has expressed his delight of your suggestions.

[taotoo]

Chownah thank you for your highly detailed post. I'm inclined to insulate the roof first with off the shelf insulation, since it seems relatively easy/cheap to do. I'll see how it goes and then reevaluate as necessary.

Have been to HomePro and seen own-brand rolls of insulation 6" thick and R23 for 390 baht. They're covered in silver - not sure what's inside them but presume they must be the fibreglass ones. Couldn't find the 6" tiles, only thinner ones. Anyway about 8,000 baht's worth of those would cover my roof. At that price I think it's a no brainer.

I'm rapidly forming the opinion that the landlord isn't likely to want to help. Apparantly we mentioned before that the house was too hot and he suggested that of course it would be since we don't have aircon.

[billaaa777]

Was that a house?

[wpcoe]

Chownah thank you for your highly detailed post. I'm inclined to insulate the roof first with off the shelf insulation, since it seems relatively easy/cheap to do. I'll see how it goes and then reevaluate as necessary.

Have been to HomePro and seen own-brand rolls of insulation 6" thick and R23 for 390 baht. They're covered in silver - not sure what's inside them but presume they must be the fibreglass ones. Couldn't find the 6" tiles, only thinner ones. Anyway about 8,000 baht's worth of those would cover my roof. At that price I think it's a no brainer.

I do hope you mean your *ceiling*? If I understand correctly, the "attic space" above then entire row of units is an open space? If you only insulated your part of the roof, then the rest of the roof would still be transmitting heat into the space. Laying your insulation onto your ceiling would be the thing to do, no?

[johng]

I had a déjà vu moment seeing taotoo's shophouse photo.

Looks just like mine, and it gets bloody hot in there too.

[taotoo]

I do hope you mean your *ceiling*? If I understand correctly, the "attic space" above then entire row of units is an open space? If you only insulated your part of the roof, then the rest of the roof would still be transmitting heat into the space. Laying your insulation onto your ceiling would be the thing to do, no?

Sorry, was typing too fast - I did mean the ceiling. And yes you do understand it right, doing the roof itself probably wouldn't do a lot of good! Thanks for pointing it out as I might have been about to do it wrong.

[taotoo]

I had a déjà vu moment seeing taotoo's shophouse photo.

Looks just like mine, and it gets bloody hot in there too.

..only yours is possibly tidier 

[chanchao]

LOL...!!

You should see the house my Mrs wants to buy.

(And wants to pay off over 30 years...

Someone please abduct me. Or her.

[tutsiwarrior]

LOL...!!

You should see the house my Mrs wants to buy.

(And wants to pay off over 30 years...

Someone please abduct me. Or her.

wonder what the A/C installation and associated monthly electric bill would cost ta cool down that piece ob shit...