Problems with accountant, need some advice

[BestB]

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Question is for Thailand based business owners.

 

Have been having nothing but trouble with my current accountant for past 12 months so.

 

Lately its gotten too much so looking for advice or suggestions on what my options are.

 

Latest problem, went to extend my business visa, she prepared all the documents as she does every year for which i pay.

 

Submit all the paperwork to immigration and cut the story short, turns out last month for social security payment, even though she provided payment receipt, was never actually made.

 

When i asked her, she replied, she paid but can not find the original, but will go pay AGAIN tomorrow and provide original.

 

Naturally immigration smelt a rat, as she did provide payment receipts, originally, only as it turns out a fake one.

 

SO they asked to see original receipts for previous 2 months, Now as it turned out, even though she provided payment receipts of 4 staff, she only really paid for 2.

 

I pay monthly full amounts but as it turns out it is not what she pays, anyhow problems with extensions,

 

Fast forward to current month.

 

She suppose to pick up all documents on the 1 or 2 of each month to then invoice for service fee and all the taxes, this month she has not shown up or called and its already the 6th

 

So contacted her today, reminding , response was "kha" and still no show.

 

Personal tax payments deadline is the 7th and then 200 baht fine or something along the lines.

 

I am changing accountants, no question about that, but naturally want to finish it off in a nice way because i have no idea what she has ready done with my accounts for past 4-5 years. and last thing i want or need is a rat. BUT at the same time if she is not picking up documents and not paying taxes, it puts me in a difficult position and i may need to press.

 

I could demands all company papers, which she may or may not return, may return in full or may "loose" some important parts.

 

I could get police assistance, but prefer not too, what are my options? if to go down the unpleasant route, where would i start? 

 

In essence, she has been forging payment receipts, she has been stealing money, how much and how often i do not know, she may well have done something more stupid, but i do not know until i see all the paperwork or get a knock on the door.

 

Useful and knowledgeable replies much appreciated

 

[Boomhauer]

Moral of the story here is always do your accounting yourself in Thailand. Sorry I can't be of more help.. Best of luck and do it all yourself in the future. 

[KittenKong]

I would never trust anyone here with money. That includes lawyers and accountants.

 

I think you need to try and find a more honest accountant who can go back through everything that the other one has done to check for other irregularities.

 

And you could try filing a lawsuit against the first accountant, but that will probably only make Thai lawyers rich. As a precursor to that you could try your local Consumer Protection office who may be able to put some pressure on the first accountant. http://www.ocpb.go.th/

[blackcab]

Change your accountant. Be aware that she has your accounts for this year and last year, and also it is getting near the time when your annual accounts need to be finished and certified.

 

Part on amicable terms and be absolutely sure to get your previous accounts.

[BestB]

1 minute ago, blackcab said:

Change your accountant. Be aware that she has your accounts for this year and last year, and also it is getting near the time when your annual accounts need to be finished and certified.

 

Part on amicable terms and be absolutely sure to get your previous accounts.

That is exactly what my plan was/is to let her finish off this month and then move, but as i explained its not happening.

 

Personal tax already late and i will be fined, how much longer should i hold it off? 

 

This is why i am looking for advice on where or how i could put pressure from the top? or is it possible at all?

 

PS. Balance sheets and audits  were just finished last month.

[CharlieH]

I think you need a 'sit down" with her, keep it all pleasant dont make her feel threatened or vulnerable.Retrieve what you can there and then. Then move forward with your next step. If she feels rumbled or potential trouble ahead lord knows what she may do to cover her tracks and create a sh*t storm for you. I would tread very carefully here. (Imho)

Best of luck.

[BestB]

1 minute ago, CharlieH said:

I think you need a 'sit down" with her, keep it all pleasant dont make her feel threatened or vulnerable.Retrieve what you can there and then. Then move forward with your next step. If she feels rumbled or potential trouble ahead lord knows what she may do to cover her tracks and create a sh*t storm for you. I would tread very carefully here. (Imho)

Totally agree, only she is not showing up since last cork up with fake receipts

[blackcab]

I think you might need to check your year end has been audited and filed correctly.

 

Audit fees can be substantial, and all it would take would be a quick photocopy and a fake signature. Just saying.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Boomhauer said:

Moral of the story here is always do your accounting yourself in Thailand. Sorry I can't be of more help.. Best of luck and do it all yourself in the future. 

Do yourself or...

 

An old buddy from UK was in business here for a couple of decades, made good money, sold the business and retired.

 

One evening the 'accountant' came up for discussion and this is what he mentioned, which he had learned from problems when the bus. first started:

 

- Insist, strongly if needed that all accounting records had to be on his desk by 9.00 am on the 1st of the month.

 

- For items like banking a a copy of the full months daily bank statements had to be included and the accountant knew that 4 or 5 times a year he would immediately take all of these records to the bank, accompanied by the accountant, no mention in advance, to ask for a certificate, on the spot from the bank, accountant had to sit with him but not allowed to speak to the bank staff.

 

- Every month he would indicate 3 or 4 items that had to be proven immediately on request from other records, Social Security payments was one checked regularly, payment of various taxes was another.

 

Over 20 years he dismissed 2 accountants on the spot for fraud and theft. And twice dismissed lawyers.

 

He did similar processes with sales data, production data, purchasing data. and HR data.

 

He did his research to learn how to make comparisons of raw materials purchases, production numbers and revenue and margin numbers to check if the numbers were realistic.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by scorecard

[BestB]

20 minutes ago, blackcab said:

I think you might need to check your year end has been audited and filed correctly.

 

Audit fees can be substantial, and all it would take would be a quick photocopy and a fake signature. Just saying.

thankfully or hopefully audit was done prior to her turning into "her" 

 

Also to my knowledge she does not do the audits and contracts it out to someone else.

 

Problem right now is getting all the paperwork back or at least getting her to pay taxes which are due in 2 hours.

 

I could show up to her house with police and demand and take all the papers on the spot, making it impossible for for to screw with accounts, but really do not want to do that as she knows all the skeletons and if there are none, she could invent some, so really wanting to end it in a nice way.

 

I have not gone off on her for messing up each time being well aware of the consequences, but have to act now and again taxes being due in 2 hours makes it even more pressing

 

I know she uncomfortable or whatever the word is for providing fake receipts and being caught,my fear is there is a lot more "fake" and this is why she is doing MIA act.

 

I usually get personal tax refund every year, this year nothing, which makes me wonder a little if my personal taxes were paid.

 

Silly thing is we talking about small money, 3000-4000 per month, but i suppose do this with 10 clients for few years and all over sudden you can afford a new house , haha

[blackcab]

I would go see her, and get all of your accounts. Everything. Politely tell her that if you get all the documents from her you will walk away and that will be the end of it. 

 

Prepare to pay taxes, penalties and interest when your new accountant goes through things.

[KittenKong]

13 hours ago, BestB said:

This is why i am looking for advice on where or how i could put pressure from the top? or is it possible at all?

My suggestion made earlier:

As a precursor to that you could try your local Consumer Protection office who may be able to put some pressure on the first accountant. http://www.ocpb.go.th/

 

You have nothing to lose as it's free.

[BestB]

3 hours ago, KittenKong said:

My suggestion made earlier:

As a precursor to that you could try your local Consumer Protection office who may be able to put some pressure on the first accountant. http://www.ocpb.go.th/

 

You have nothing to lose as it's free.

Consumer Protection board have no authority over matters like this

[KittenKong]

54 minutes ago, BestB said:

Consumer Protection board have no authority over matters like this

I'll take your word for it but I dont see why not. I have known them to get involved with similar issues.

[scorecard]

18 hours ago, BestB said:

thankfully or hopefully audit was done prior to her turning into "her" 

 

Also to my knowledge she does not do the audits and contracts it out to someone else.

 

Problem right now is getting all the paperwork back or at least getting her to pay taxes which are due in 2 hours.

 

I could show up to her house with police and demand and take all the papers on the spot, making it impossible for for to screw with accounts, but really do not want to do that as she knows all the skeletons and if there are none, she could invent some, so really wanting to end it in a nice way.

 

I have not gone off on her for messing up each time being well aware of the consequences, but have to act now and again taxes being due in 2 hours makes it even more pressing

 

I know she uncomfortable or whatever the word is for providing fake receipts and being caught,my fear is there is a lot more "fake" and this is why she is doing MIA act.

 

I usually get personal tax refund every year, this year nothing, which makes me wonder a little if my personal taxes were paid.

 

Silly thing is we talking about small money, 3000-4000 per month, but i suppose do this with 10 clients for few years and all over sudden you can afford a new house , haha

 Could be wrong but I think in Thailand audit must be done, by law, by a separate person / company.

[BestB]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

 Could be wrong but I think in Thailand audit must be done, by law, by a separate person / company.

Yup, it was done by someone else and it took much longer than usual. Like 3 months longer than usual 

[BestB]

3 hours ago, KittenKong said:

I'll take your word for it but I dont see why not. I have known them to get involved with similar issues.

It’s B2B , they only deal with consumer complaints not business to business complaints. Business to business goes through local Amphue office, however once you file a complaint , they sent out notice asking to report 3 times. If no show, they can not enforce it but refer it to court.

 

so basically b2b can take years and truck load of cash before to get resolved.

 

in a case of accountant I was hoping there was some other remedy , similar to lawyers having legal council who can investigate misbehaving 

[KittenKong]

20 minutes ago, BestB said:

It’s B2B , they only deal with consumer complaints not business to business complaints. Business to business goes through local Amphue office, however once you file a complaint , they sent out notice asking to report 3 times. If no show, they can not enforce it but refer it to court.

 

so basically b2b can take years and truck load of cash before to get resolved.

 

in a case of accountant I was hoping there was some other remedy , similar to lawyers having legal council who can investigate misbehaving  

Well, you could file a complaint as an individual shareholder, couldn't you? This is what people do who have problems with their condo management company, even though the management company works for the business collective rather than individual co-owners.

 

Otherwise you could try these people: http://www.tfac.or.th/Home/Main

Good luck with that.

[BestB]

2 hours ago, KittenKong said:

Well, you could file a complaint as an individual shareholder, couldn't you? This is what people do who have problems with their condo management company, even though the management company works for the business collective rather than individual co-owners.

 

Otherwise you could try these people: http://www.tfac.or.th/Home/Main

Good luck with that.

Thank you this is exactly what i was after. Lets see how things develop in the next few days before taking drastic measures

[wordchild]

Yes you need to check everything yourself, that is the lesson here. You literally cannot trust any “professional “ in this country. A friend of mine had several hundred thousand spirited away from his business by the company he used to do his accounts and visa stuff. The company who defrauded him is a pretty well known , farang owned, operation. ( cannot name for obvious reasons). He took them to court and got (some) of his money back, after a couple of years delay, but amazingly the perpetrators are still in operation and promoting their services on a number of expat websites. It all  goes to the point , you really cannot trust anyone (farang or Thai)

[BestB]

3 hours ago, wordchild said:

Yes you need to check everything yourself, that is the lesson here. You literally cannot trust any “professional “ in this country. A friend of mine had several hundred thousand spirited away from his business by the company he used to do his accounts and visa stuff. The company who defrauded him is a pretty well known , farang owned, operation. ( cannot name for obvious reasons). He took them to court and got (some) of his money back, after a couple of years delay, but amazingly the perpetrators are still in operation and promoting their services on a number of expat websites. It all  goes to the point , you really cannot trust anyone (farang or Thai)

In my case I guess I am lucky to have only small amounts but if she did it continuously for 4 years it may add up.

 

problem I have is I do not understand Thai accounting . It’s in the world of its own.

 

mind you I have a certificate in accounting which I obtained back home and did my own monthly accounting there but Thai system is just too confusing for me.

 

my previous accountant was good but often forgot to renew either licenses or work permit and each time instead of an apology I was getting an idiotic laugh , so I changed to current one and she was good right up till about 12 months ago.

 

when I say good, I did not catch any irregularities with taxes, this year just too many 

 

ps. I think I know which company you referring to, have read story like this, possibly the same story. 

Pps. Accountants not paying social security is more common than you think but in my case the amounts are just too little to think she would risk it over few thousand baht.

Edited March 7, 2019 by BestB

[KittenKong]

10 hours ago, wordchild said:

Yes you need to check everything yourself, that is the lesson here. You literally cannot trust any “professional “ in this country.

Indeed. Massive cheating and incompetence everywhere, regardless of skin colour. And most of it goes unpunished and unreported.

 

Always check everything and trust no one.

[MiNombreEsFicticious]

To the OP, I think you need a Thai to help you resolve this (an employee or company director, perhaps). Thais are not good problem solvers, and they get worse when farangs are involved. 

[lkn]

On 3/7/2019 at 11:58 PM, BestB said:

problem I have is I do not understand Thai accounting . It’s in the world of its own.

Proper Thai accountants have no problem doing double-entry bookkeeping, can track your inventory under assets, accrue expenses, etc.

 

But if not instructed in how to keep the books, they may opt for something closer to a single entry system, just tracking the cash flow, as that is how many of the mom & pop stores do accounting.

[BestB]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

Proper Thai accountants have no problem doing double-entry bookkeeping, can track your inventory under assets, accrue expenses, etc.

 

But if not instructed in how to keep the books, they may opt for something closer to a single entry system, just tracking the cash flow, as that is how many of the mom & pop stores do accounting.

Accounting was not a problem . Not paying social security and/ or taxes is a problem . Bigger problem is providing fake receipts it was paid when it was not.