URGENT - Dog Re-Homing Needed

[cliveshep]

We urgently need to re-home our bitch Laika. She is a beautiful dog just over 26 months old who is up to date on her jabs and is a good family dog BUT cannot live with other dogs. She is one of a litter of 3 we adopted as puppies but randomly attacks one of the other two litter mates and my wife's little cocker spaniel whom she bites quite seriously.

 

With  people in the home she is lovely - so long as she is the only dog I think. Cats also are not safe.

 

If anyone can offer a home to this lovely dog - we're about 5km from Minburi in Khlong Sam Wa Tawan ok  please send me a message. She normally lives in the home - not outside - UK style as part of the family but if I cannot home her we're heading for divorce because my wife loves her cocker we brought from England like a baby. This is Laika...........

 

 

With my daughter - Laika loves cuddles

 

 

With my wife...................

 

[jak2002003]

Have you considered getting her spayed?  That probably will help with her aggression.  Also some dog training? 

 

Sorry you are in this situation, but it's going to be hard to re home a dog that will attack other dogs and animals for no reason, but I wish you luck finding her a new home.

[cliveshep]

Got to tell you I love my dog to bits but I love my wife too! it is breaking my heart to think of losing Laika, and my wife loves her too - usually. She is perfect on the lead, fun to play with and walk, rides between us on the motorbike half on my wife's lap as we take her for her daily walks and really, apart from sudden attacks on the others that are dangerous and cause real injury she is a lovely dog.

 

She is in most respects a good house dog, but she is jealous of treats, her sleeping spaces (anywhere under the dining table) and our attention giving to the other dogs. We have to separate her from the others for treats, and make sure she gets lots of attention - she is a needy dog for petting and cuddles.

 

But lots of dripping blood on the floor from an injured foot on our poor cocker spaniel really upset my wife into almost hysteria. 

 

But if spaying would help I'll look into it as a solution that would solve all our problems. Thanks.

[cliveshep]

Apparently there is a Government Pet Hospital that will carry out this operation for 2500 baht but you have to do the after-care yourself. Given our poor financial position that sounds good but is there such a place in Northern Bangkok, or where is it?

[Denim]

3 minutes ago, cliveshep said:

Apparently there is a Government Pet Hospital that will carry out this operation for 2500 baht but you have to do the after-care yourself. Given our poor financial position that sounds good but is there such a place in Northern Bangkok, or where is it?

We went to our local vets to get our birch spayed. The cost was 1700.

Took the stitches out myself as it was less stressful.

Took the dog in at 10.am and waited with her for blood test results and until she was sedated. Collected her at 2.00 pm.

 

Can't say it made her less aggressive though as she still chases motorcycles whenever she manages to escape our compound.

[BestB]

Of course desexing helps but it takes time for dog to settle down.

 

she is basically at age where she is establishing her alpha dominance .

 

attacks are not for no reason.

 

there are some things you can do.

1. Desexing her

2. Keep her separate from others when you not there

3. Stop her before she snaps

 

i had a similar situation with my 2 bitches, but one was a pitiful .

 

it was some kind of competition and small one never gave up.

 

had to watch them all the time and never allow to go near each other. Lasted for about 1-2 years and then just settled down and they learned to respect or tolerate each other . 

 

So desex first then keep separated and ot should settle down, also be fair , can not pet or give treats to one but not another. All has to be equal.

[wildewillie89]

Spaying makes few dogs less aggressive, and it makes just as many dogs even more aggressive. It is just a line the councils and many vet clinics put out to promote desexing your pets. Environment and genetics dictate the majority of aggression issues, not removing ovaries. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5834763/

It is well known not to ever take litter mates. They either become too attached to each other or very aggressive towards each other. 
 

[BestB]

5 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

Spaying makes few dogs less aggressive, and it makes just as many dogs even more aggressive. It is just a line the councils and many vet clinics put out to promote desexing your pets. Environment and genetics dictate the majority of aggression issues, not removing ovaries. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5834763/

It is well known not to ever take litter mates. They either become too attached to each other or very aggressive towards each other. 
 

i had a litter and kept all.

 

all 4 are boys. They love each other but on occasion also get into fights

 

fights are due to establishing dominance.

 

there are trigger points, as long as one figures out and observes the trigger points fights are easily avoidable.

 

in my case 1 is the instigator of all fights, he is just claiming dominance, he now does not get fed first, does not go into car first and he has accepted it, for now anyway .

 

dogs are not hard as long as you can understand them ????

 

ohh and I have 9 of them in total, including father and mother who occasionally help to discipline the pups

[wildewillie89]

3 minutes ago, BestB said:

i had a litter and kept all.

 

all 4 are boys. They love each other but on occasion also get into fights

 

fights are due to establishing dominance.

 

there are trigger points, as long as one figures out and observes the trigger points fights are easily avoidable.

 

in my case 1 is the instigator of all fights, he is just claiming dominance, he now does not get fed first, does not go into car first and he has accepted it, for now anyway .

 

dogs are not hard as long as you can understand them ????

 

ohh and I have 9 of them in total, including father and mother who occasionally help to discipline the pups

Recommendations are usually set on the majority, not a minority. The fact is, it is advised not to take on litter mates as there are generally more cons than pros. Littermate Syndrome doesn't occur in all littermates, however it does occur often enough for experts to advise against taking littermates on. It is why most shelters never place brothers or sisters together when they come in. The bond becomes so important (whether that is closeness or fighting), that the puppies never develop the necessary social skills. Your dogs clearly do not have Littermate Syndrome (better genetics), that is fantastic. However, it doesn't really help the OP when his dogs clearly do have it. 

Similar as to why it is recommended to have different gender dogs. Of course with a good environment and good genetics these things may be able to work themselves out. However, for the majority of people and the majority of environments they do not, hence the recommendations. We just end up with dogs needing to be re-homed...as in this case. 

So for the OP is recommended to keep the puppies from developing this emotional dependence (a little late for him). All he can do is this: Three dogs may mean three crates in this case if the OP uses that style. However, what is important is that three dogs means three individual training sessions where sole focus can be put on one dog at a time. The dog needs to develop its confidence and independence away from its littermate who is giving it signals to play second fiddle. Three dogs also means three play sessions. Dogs need to learn to weaken the social bond they have with each other (whether that is reliance/anxiety or control/fighting).

[wildewillie89]

23 minutes ago, Arjen said:

To make dogs less aggressive spaying only works when you do this before they are adult. So before the homons has started to work. Spaying male dogs will remove the sex-drive (mostly for 80%, not  complete!) and on this way reduce some aggression. In your situation spaying is unlikely to work. 

 

Training will help. But you must be around.

 

I am not sure if it is correct about litter mates what WW89 states.

It probably depends on the other dogs in your pack also.

 

We have quite a lot of dogs, most are not alone but have brothers and sisters also here. And it looks to me the brothers and sisters from all different litters are a kind of "Sub-pack" in the "main-pack" 

 

Arjen.

Not true Arjen. May reduce roaming, which will help stop getting hit by cars etc, but aggression is learnt (environment) or inherited (genetics). 

"Neither gonadectomy nor age at gonadectomy showed an association with aggression toward familiar people or dogs. However, there was a low but significant increase in the odds of moderate or severe aggression toward strangers for all gonadectomized dogs compared with intact dogs, but this effect was driven entirely by data for dogs gonadectomized at 7–12 months of age, which were 26% more likely to demonstrate aggression toward strangers. This large, comprehensive study of the relationships between gonadectomy and aggressive behavior in dogs demonstrates that when the many factors affecting aggressive behavior are considered, there is no evidence that gonadectomy at any age alters aggressive behavior toward familiar people or dogs, and there is only a minimal increase in aggression toward strangers. Given the increasing evidence of significant negative health effects of gonadectomy, there is an urgent need to systematically examine other means of preventing unwanted procreation, such as vasectomy and hysterectomy".

Edit: The above results looked at 13,000+ dogs. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by wildewillie89

[dick dasterdly]

It does sound like an insecure/dominance 'thing'.

 

When you brought the litter into your home, did you already have a 'dominant type' dog?  Alternatively, have you since brought in another dog that COULD be dominant, if they were inclined that way?

 

I ask, as I had 2 dogs (no problems at all - they loved each other) and brought in another dog - and then the problems started....  Consequently, I learned to be dominant myself, and managed to solve the problem.

 

Recently, a neighbour moved in and he had a Pitbull pup (now fully grown), and the problems started again with my previously 'problem' dog starting to attack not the Pitbull, but my remaining other dog!  Fortunately, I have been able to stop this too by first recognising, addressing and controlling the situations that lead to an 'attack' - and becoming personally more dominant again....

[BestB]

24 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

Recommendations are usually set on the majority, not a minority. The fact is, it is advised not to take on litter mates as there are generally more cons than pros. Littermate Syndrome doesn't occur in all littermates, however it does occur often enough for experts to advise against taking littermates on. It is why most shelters never place brothers or sisters together when they come in. The bond becomes so important (whether that is closeness or fighting), that the puppies never develop the necessary social skills. Your dogs clearly do not have Littermate Syndrome (better genetics), that is fantastic. However, it doesn't really help the OP when his dogs clearly do have it. 

Similar as to why it is recommended to have different gender dogs. Of course with a good environment and good genetics these things may be able to work themselves out. However, for the majority of people and the majority of environments they do not, hence the recommendations. We just end up with dogs needing to be re-homed...as in this case. 

So for the OP is recommended to keep the puppies from developing this emotional dependence (a little late for him). All he can do is this: Three dogs may mean three crates in this case if the OP uses that style. However, what is important is that three dogs means three individual training sessions where sole focus can be put on one dog at a time. The dog needs to develop its confidence and independence away from its littermate who is giving it signals to play second fiddle. Three dogs also means three play sessions. Dogs need to learn to weaken the social bond they have with each other (whether that is reliance/anxiety or control/fighting).

All well said , in my case all 4 pups were together from birth at which I was present. 

 

I have not seen a case of littermate syndrome to comment on my case but they do love each other and always terrorise everyone and everything together.

 

as I suggested earlier and you confirmed , need to be isolated and controlled. There is always a trigger point for attacks just need to figure out what it is.

 

i an only guessing but would appear wife loves cocker spaniel which may get more attention than Laika, so it’s jealous rage, it could also be that Laika reached the age to claim her position and wants to be an alpha female but others are not allowing it.

 

again from my case, one of the pups had tried to assert his dominance with other pups and older dogs, I intervened and did not allow it , he settled down , but no doubt will try it again.

 

pups father is a very dominant red nose pitbull, no matter how cuddly or sweet he is , he is watched at all times and never ever left alone with other dogs . He is always isolated when I am not around.

 

point of my rant and help to OP, need to develop some dynamics in the house and it should settle things down , not overnight but it will if OP can follow through ????

[cliveshep]

On balance then it seems the following has been learnt from all the helpful posts in response.

 

1. Gratefully going to keep Laika, in fact as my wife loves her every bit as much as i do my wife is not presenting a problem. FWIW Laika might be "my" dog, but she thinks she's Arisa's dog, in fact they all do. Possibly because although I pet them and give treats Arisa is far younger and can get down with them whereas I have arthritis in my knees. So she got bonded more than I did.

 

2. We will, also gratefully for both humane as well as economic reasons, forgo the spaying route. This means we are back to square one with 3 siblings and the far smaller Cocker.

 

She might be small but she is noisy and at times frankly provocative. She chased a far larger soi dog while on our walk one day, it was joined by another of equal size and both fled tails between their legs. It was only when a 3rd dog joined that all 3 turned at bay and I had to rush in and save the cocker suicidal cocker. All 3 stood almost twice her height so she is quite foolhardy. I think it is this challenging attitude, barking in other dogs faces, that creates the problems, not immediately but perhaps saved up for later.

 

Not sure how to deal with that - even out on the motor-bike she barks challenges to all the dogs she sees - mad cocker syndrome LOL. She has always been crazy mad excitable!

 

Put that with Laika, now the biggest dog's "top dog" behaviour and it is a clear recipe for trouble. When I'm around I'm Boss, all 4 dogs know and respect that, but if I'm not watching them and they can see I'm not of course they take advantage, like digging holes in the lawn which they know full well is forbidden or ripping the stuffing out of their beds - "not me guv, must have been another dog!" Typical young dogs in fact.

[BestB]

2 hours ago, cliveshep said:

On balance then it seems the following has been learnt from all the helpful posts in response.

 

1. Gratefully going to keep Laika, in fact as my wife loves her every bit as much as i do my wife is not presenting a problem. FWIW Laika might be "my" dog, but she thinks she's Arisa's dog, in fact they all do. Possibly because although I pet them and give treats Arisa is far younger and can get down with them whereas I have arthritis in my knees. So she got bonded more than I did.

 

2. We will, also gratefully for both humane as well as economic reasons, forgo the spaying route. This means we are back to square one with 3 siblings and the far smaller Cocker.

 

She might be small but she is noisy and at times frankly provocative. She chased a far larger soi dog while on our walk one day, it was joined by another of equal size and both fled tails between their legs. It was only when a 3rd dog joined that all 3 turned at bay and I had to rush in and save the cocker suicidal cocker. All 3 stood almost twice her height so she is quite foolhardy. I think it is this challenging attitude, barking in other dogs faces, that creates the problems, not immediately but perhaps saved up for later.

 

Not sure how to deal with that - even out on the motor-bike she barks challenges to all the dogs she sees - mad cocker syndrome LOL. She has always been crazy mad excitable!

 

Put that with Laika, now the biggest dog's "top dog" behaviour and it is a clear recipe for trouble. When I'm around I'm Boss, all 4 dogs know and respect that, but if I'm not watching them and they can see I'm not of course they take advantage, like digging holes in the lawn which they know full well is forbidden or ripping the stuffing out of their beds - "not me guv, must have been another dog!" Typical young dogs in fact.

Just keep trouble makers away from each other and when you not home keep Laika outside or caged. 

 

Common for a pack to listen , fear and respect one human but totally disregard another.

 

You could also determine who is the smartest alpha and throw your weight behind that dog , once other one accepts , they will settle down 

[dick dasterdly]

15 hours ago, BestB said:

Just keep trouble makers away from each other and when you not home keep Laika outside or caged. 

 

Common for a pack to listen , fear and respect one human but totally disregard another.

 

You could also determine who is the smartest alpha and throw your weight behind that dog , once other one accepts , they will settle down 

"Common for a pack to listen , fear and respect one human but totally disregard another."

 

Hopefully not "fear"!

 

But I agree that it is reasonably common for dogs to only 'respect/pay attention' to one person that they respect (because they have not allowed the dog to get away with bad behaviour - which often starts with food aggression?) and therefore trust that person to protect them.

[BestB]

2 minutes ago, Arjen said:

 

That is great news! I am happy to hear this!

 

People with more knowledge about dog behavior will maybe step in, but there is not such a thing as "an Alpha" dog. In different situations are different Alpha's. We can see this very clear in our pack. The oldest dog never fights. When we give food, he is allowed to eat from the bowl from every other dog, they just step backwards.

 

We have the "house Alpha" he likes to sit in our house, and no other dog is allowed to enter.

We have the "peace Alpha" when ever there is a fight or a struggle between dogs, he interferes and stops the agressor. Except when one of the other "Alpha's" protects their speciality, because then he remains on the background.

We have the "intruder Alpha" (a female) she mobilises the other dogs when she thinks she sees an intruder. Can be human, but also cats, rats, snakes, chickens from our neighbours.

 

We have one dog, maybe he can be a kind of "super Alpha" all dogs walk away for him, But he never interferes with what the other dogs are doing. He is not interested at all in them.

 

I think as human it is possible to have the position from "super alpha" in the pack. Well... at least I think I am more or less in our pack....

 

Arjen.

In my pack I have 1 alpha , he is the boss. All others listen to him. He does not fight and does not mind to wait for his food or for others to take his space but when he speaks all others stop.

 

my pitbull is the strongest and largest  in the pack but if other one speaks he backs down even though he could rip him apart in seconds .

 

i supported my now alpha into his position and support he remains there as he is very smart and non confrontational.

[dick dasterdly]

On 3/7/2019 at 4:21 PM, cliveshep said:

Got to tell you I love my dog to bits but I love my wife too! it is breaking my heart to think of losing Laika, and my wife loves her too - usually. She is perfect on the lead, fun to play with and walk, rides between us on the motorbike half on my wife's lap as we take her for her daily walks and really, apart from sudden attacks on the others that are dangerous and cause real injury she is a lovely dog.

 

She is in most respects a good house dog, but she is jealous of treats, her sleeping spaces (anywhere under the dining table) and our attention giving to the other dogs. We have to separate her from the others for treats, and make sure she gets lots of attention - she is a needy dog for petting and cuddles.

 

But lots of dripping blood on the floor from an injured foot on our poor cocker spaniel really upset my wife into almost hysteria. 

 

But if spaying would help I'll look into it as a solution that would solve all our problems. Thanks.

Re-reading this thread (because I've had similar problems and so understand the worry and frustration), I'm concerned at the comment "she is jealous of treats, her sleeping spaces (anywhere under the dining table) and our attention giving to the other dogs."

 

Most/all (?) dogs are protective of their treats - but when this happens (along with sleeping spaces/giving attention to other dogs) I've found that it's imperative to correct this behaviour immediately.

 

Take away the treat they are protecting, and give it back when they are in submissive 'pose'/push them out of the way and make it clear you're not happy when they are trying to insert themselves in front of the dog getting the attention.

 

In short, make it very clear that you make the decisions - not them.

[cliveshep]

Quote: 

"Take away the treat they are protecting, and give it back when they are in submissive 'pose'/push them out of the way and make it clear you're not happy when they are trying to insert themselves in front of the dog getting the attention.

 

In short, make it very clear that you make the decisions - not them."

 

We do that, she never reacts badly if we take things from her nor exert dominance over her. With us, my wife and I, you couldn't wish for a sweeter, more loving or patient dog. We always say we can do anything with  her which is why her behaviour with the others is so mystifying. You can pull her around, turn her on her back, inspect her body minutely, trim her long coat (around her face and jaws because she gets mucky there) trim her claws, pull her tail - hard enough to drag her backwards and she puts up with all of it with equanimity. She is almost impossible to upset.

 

[cliveshep]

It all kicked off again this morning and I'm at my wits end. We let the dogs out in the front yard to do their business as usual, someone walked past and they all ran to the front gate barking in their usual fashion, then Laika jumped on Poppy and savaged her again, and I ran out instinctively trying to pull her off - she wouldn't let go. Poppy was screaming then crying.

 

Laika got an angry hard smack from me, Arisa is totally upset that I pulled Laika off instead of scaring her off with a chair because she says Laika's teeth will tear, better she releases.

 

Arisa is right but at the time it is shocking to both of us, Laika uttering death threat snarls and Poppy screaming and the whole upsetting scene. On top of that even posting this is upsetting Arisa - easy for her but I have no English friends in Thailand to talk to, only family and friends back in the UK. Fortunately Poppy seems only to have a little cut on her injured paw from last week, Laika is caged and will stay there for a time it seems as we don't know what to do with her.

 

She looks pitifully at me through the cage but I cannot trust her right now. Poppy is outside under the truck, amazingly pretty much unhurt. I asked Arisa if she wants Laika euthanised - killed - but she does not. 

 

We will have to keep Laika caged as I don't know how to deal with this and neither does Arisa it seems.

[metempsychotic]

On 3/9/2019 at 3:38 PM, cliveshep said:

2. We will, also gratefully for both humane as well as economic reasons, forgo the spaying route. This means we are back to square one with 3 siblings and the far smaller Cocker.

humane reasons?  do tell.

as for the cocker, they are know to be nasty, especially as they age.

 

Are you sure laika is the problem?

[cliveshep]

Looking into the e-collar issue. As for the Cocker being a problem she is a noisy little bugger and I'd call her a provocative trouble maker, but of course she is the one that always gets hurt as Laika is twice her size and weight. Even so, the aggression has to be controlled! before Poppy the cocker spaniel gets severely injured or perhaps killed. My wife would never forgive me and she'd be desolate if Poppy was crippled or blinded. We've had a couple of near misses on her losing an eye already, and her big front paw pad was split badly. It was late at night and really needed stitches but we bandaged her and she is walking normally after about a week.

 

We just don't have the money for vet bills, having just inoculated all 4 dogs plus other big bills that cleaned us out.

 

[wildewillie89]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ALPHA DOG!!!!! Whether that is dogs around other dogs, or humans thinking they are alphas. 

Training methods that employ dominance are ineffective. Yes, the dog may do what you desire, but they are doing it out of FEAR! As soon as the dog become fearful it poses a huge risk for biting in the future. I am sure people will go on about how their dog isn't fearful, but if you have had to kick your dog like Milan does for example, then the dog is fearful. The respectful relationship has been broken. We can simply see this with the way Thais treat their dogs on the most part. Yeah, the dog stays loyal, but flinches every time you raise a hand. 

It is why every single governing dog behaviour body, respectable trainer and animal cruelty groups are disgusted with the way people like Cesar Milan do things. They believe it has set dog training back decades. Yes, his methods may 'seem' to work for a small amount of people who are able to keep their cool, but they are with extreme risk as they create an antagonist relationship between dog and person. Hence, the cruelty part. It is a lazy short term fix that allows for potential aggression later on. 

Dog training should be based on positive, respectful and consistent environments. As Arjen said, the alpha dog situation has been found to be a myth. The reason people believe it exists is their home environment is usually a constant. You put the exact same dogs you have in your home out in the street with continual changes in environment and that dog you thought was alpha is suddenly not depending on the stimulus. Different dogs change leadership or show dominance extremely often as the environment changing. Even in the home many dogs will change leadership. Dogs showing dominance (not alpha) is a response to stress, fear, threats or worry. So for my home the Caucasian shows dominance if cars/motorcycles etc are around as they are the threat to her and the Fila shows dominance over the Caucasian if people are around as he has been specifically bred to be people aggressive so people are the concern for him. A dog behaving dominantly is not an alpha thing, it is a response to the stimulus.

In terms of a house situation, we teach respect and we are supposed to do that by creating positive conditioning with what we deem respectful behaviour to be. Like we have the thread re training dogs not to kill chickens - reward the dog when it shows no interest in the chook. "Reinforcing desired behaviors, removing the reinforcer for inappropriate behaviors, and addressing the emotional state and environmental conditions driving the undesirable behavior."

[wildewillie89]

More simplistically, we just have to look at abusing dogs (whether verbally or physically) when they bark and smacking children when they are naughty. Similar concept as dogs have the social maturity of a young child. The dog learns that barking means getting attention. Doesn't matter if it is attention in the form of abuse, it is still attention. 

The same with little kids. You smack a kid and they are happy (even if cry from the pain), as they have received the attention (love in child and dogs eyes). They were only being naughty in the first place, or dog barking in the first place, to get attention from you.

If you remove that reinforcer of the undesired behaviour (abusing the barking or being naughty), and fix up the emotional state (actually giving calm and positive attention when the dog or child is showing desired behaviours), and fix the environment (removing stimulus that creates issues) then suddenly things start to change. Remember for every negative you say to a child you must say six positives for that child to grow up well behaved. Similar with dogs as again, their social maturity is on a par with young children. 

[cliveshep]

I love my dogs and do not want to abuse or hurt them, but 3 of them are feral dogs from the countryside just abandoned in a ditch where the bitch whelped under a bush. We used to go out and feed the many dogs living down the road and this litter was pointed out to us.

 

We tried hard to persuade the locals to adopt a puppy- there were 7 originally, one died - we buried it, three vanished, hopefully to locals and nor predators, and I brought Laika home after feeding them daily for a week and when it was obvious that no one else was going to bother. Soon we found only one left alone we thought, so we brought him home. Sister-in-law checking the following day saw another clearly sick and dying, too weak to stand, so I went and brought her home, fed her with a baby syringe as she was dehydrated, water, then milk and water, then"smoothie" boiled egg and milk and she recovered. She has scars on her back so presumably something tried to eat her.

 

So we have adopted them all, they are nervous dogs even of us in the home they flinch if you go to pet them but will come for a cuddle and pet if one sits down. They jump all over us if we come back from shopping. I have no idea how to train Laika out of aggression, we talked about shock collars as has been suggested, not expensive on e-bay, but the triggers are not easy to see that set Laija off. They all rush out if one sees a kid on a bike or a couple of folk sweeping the road, one of them barks, then there's a mad rush out the door and 4 dogs barking and howling until the passer-bye has gone. Same if they see a cat belonging to a neighbour - they go frantic. It is those moments of hysteria when Laika has attacked Poppy before, or one of her own siblings and she is quite vicious about it. We hear the snarls and they are quickly followed by the cries of the wounded dog but by then it is too late. It doesn't happen every time but we have had an attack 3 times in the last 10 days, twice on Poppy and once on a sibling.

 

We just cannot foresee when it will all kick off. All this talk of Alphas and dominance and submission and so on is ok in theory, but when you've got 4 mad buggers tearing about not so easy to put into practice. So a muzzle will save dogs getting bitten but then Laika won't be able to wander into the feeding area for some biscuit or a drink as they all are free to do now. An electric collar would be ok so long as (a) we were about with the remote when needed and (b) she associates the shock with her anti-social actions.

Edited March 14, 2019 by cliveshep

[wildewillie89]

16 hours ago, cliveshep said:

I love my dogs and do not want to abuse or hurt them, but 3 of them are feral dogs from the countryside just abandoned in a ditch where the bitch whelped under a bush. We used to go out and feed the many dogs living down the road and this litter was pointed out to us.

 

We tried hard to persuade the locals to adopt a puppy- there were 7 originally, one died - we buried it, three vanished, hopefully to locals and nor predators, and I brought Laika home after feeding them daily for a week and when it was obvious that no one else was going to bother. Soon we found only one left alone we thought, so we brought him home. Sister-in-law checking the following day saw another clearly sick and dying, too weak to stand, so I went and brought her home, fed her with a baby syringe as she was dehydrated, water, then milk and water, then"smoothie" boiled egg and milk and she recovered. She has scars on her back so presumably something tried to eat her.

 

So we have adopted them all, they are nervous dogs even of us in the home they flinch if you go to pet them but will come for a cuddle and pet if one sits down. They jump all over us if we come back from shopping. I have no idea how to train Laika out of aggression, we talked about shock collars as has been suggested, not expensive on e-bay, but the triggers are not easy to see that set Laija off. They all rush out if one sees a kid on a bike or a couple of folk sweeping the road, one of them barks, then there's a mad rush out the door and 4 dogs barking and howling until the passer-bye has gone. Same if they see a cat belonging to a neighbour - they go frantic. It is those moments of hysteria when Laika has attacked Poppy before, or one of her own siblings and she is quite vicious about it. We hear the snarls and they are quickly followed by the cries of the wounded dog but by then it is too late. It doesn't happen every time but we have had an attack 3 times in the last 10 days, twice on Poppy and once on a sibling.

 

We just cannot foresee when it will all kick off. All this talk of Alphas and dominance and submission and so on is ok in theory, but when you've got 4 mad buggers tearing about not so easy to put into practice. So a muzzle will save dogs getting bitten but then Laika won't be able to wander into the feeding area for some biscuit or a drink as they all are free to do now. An electric collar would be ok so long as (a) we were about with the remote when needed and (b) she associates the shock with her anti-social actions.

I think the point is they need to be separated until they are actually trained. Separate crates if indoor dogs, separate training sessions focusing on positive reinforcement on the behaviours you wish the dogs to display, separate play sessions where the dogs can start to build some respect for you and separate walks down the street to get some stimulation. Do these things at set times to create a routine for the dog. If the dog has a routine, then the dog will feel safe as he knows what is happening. 

Separating the dogs not only will help with training, it will also give you control over the environment. So when a kid or cat does run by the dogs will not be able to redirect that excitement and energy into fighting as they will be separated. 

After doing this for a while then slowly try and introduce the dogs again. Positively reinforcing behaviour you wish to see. So start to walk the dogs together slowly. Still train separately, but train in the view of the other dog. Over time the dogs will hopefully lose that strong bond they have with their littermate as you have formed a stronger bond as you are working individually with them and spending more time with them than the dogs are spending together. 

This will all take many months of hard work. The alpha approach will take a much shorter time, however, if the dogs are already flinching then it is an incredibly irresponsible approach to take. Not only high risk but simply cruel with the latest information/research the dog community has.  

Edit: It is not necessary to have a feeding area. Just give the dogs a set meal if small dogs, or even better two set meals a day. Put it down for 10 minutes, if they don't eat it take it away. Dogs will not die if have no constant food source. Having on tap feeding areas is often not a good idea with even only one dog, but especially in a house with multiple dogs. Obviously always have water available. Again, TAKE CONTROL OF THE ENVIRONMENT that is driving undesirable behaviour. 

Edited March 15, 2019 by wildewillie89

[dick dasterdly]

On 3/15/2019 at 10:41 AM, Arjen said:

Agreed with (nearly all) above. Except, from experience I know that once you have separated dogs who like to fight each other, it is very  difficult to have them accept each other again. When you separate them, be sure their cages, crates, benches are very close to each other.

 

Usual it is the easiest to give the stronger dog (So Laika in this case) more rights. It will be very difficult to protect the other dog from Laika, although it seems the other dog is starting the fights, or at least initiates them.

 

And further do what WW89 suggests. Do everyday the same thing, at around the same times, in (IMPORTANT!!) the same sequence. Treat all dogs after each other. But Laika first. So first walk her, first feed her. When they are used a bit to this new "regime" you can start the walk by passing the place where you keep the cocker, and also end there. With the cocker you do the same. When they just sniffing, reward them. When they show aggression, speak a few firm words, pull the leash, and bring them direct back to the cage.

 

Probably it was not wise from me to  suggest the E-collar. They are a great tool, but you must know what you do. In my home country they are not allowed anymore because people without any knowledge used them to learn there poodle to sit on command. 

 

Good luck! Arjen.

I've used both remote control vibration and citrus spray collars in the past (when they were chasing/killing chickens or chasing 'bikes), and they work very well - without any cruelty.

 

I managed to stop my dog attacking another, without separating them - but she only attacked when I was somewhere around, and yes, I know this means I was part of the cause as there weren't any problems when I was out shopping or whatever.

 

It sounds as if the main 'trigger' for fights in the OP's case is excitement (which was a main trigger for my dog too).

 

Part of the solution in my case was to shout (in a deep voice) as soon as I heard them getting excited, and rush out to control the excitement before a fight broke out.  I concentrated on the most excited first - which was never my dog who attacked first.  The over-excited dog would do her best to avoid me, but I followed her until she realised I was determined to get my way - and eventually gave up and lay down.  Consistency is the key, until they learn to accept or avoid each other.

 

The dog who always started the fights (i.e. physically attacked first), was always the most 'submissive' towards me and the first to calm down and, I suspect, using the other dog's excitement as an 'excuse' to attack.

 

Of course all dogs are different, and so you need to find the solution that works for you.

[donim]

Does anyone know, in Bangkok North (Don Muang area) a free spaying/sterrilisation program for dogs?
Would like to see a few dogs here done that.

 

Rgds