Testosterone - Testoviron - Where to buy in CM

[CNXexpat]

On 9/25/2019 at 5:29 PM, WaveHunter said:

Her office visit prices are very inexpensive

She is a good doctor - I visited her once because I had a cough for 4 weeks - and compared with my home country a visit is inexpensive. But for Thailand she is far away from inexpensive. The doctor fee is 500 Baht. At Ram Hospital I pay 600 Baht and when I visited some months ago a specialist for nose, throat and ears in his doctor´s office at the Hangdong Rd., he asked for 200 Baht. Dr. Morgans doctor´s fee is 250% higher. So far I remember, I also had to pay another 500 Baht at Dr. Morgan´s office for a check at my first visit, but I am not sure. She must make a fortune.

[WaveHunter]

4 hours ago, CNXexpat said:

She is a good doctor - I visited her once because I had a cough for 4 weeks - and compared with my home country a visit is inexpensive. But for Thailand she is far away from inexpensive. The doctor fee is 500 Baht. At Ram Hospital I pay 600 Baht and when I visited some months ago a specialist for nose, throat and ears in his doctor´s office at the Hangdong Rd., he asked for 200 Baht. Dr. Morgans doctor´s fee is 250% higher. So far I remember, I also had to pay another 500 Baht at Dr. Morgan´s office for a check at my first visit, but I am not sure. She must make a fortune.

The way I look at it is "cost" is a relative thing.  I am sure you are correct regarding lower costs at RAM, but I can call Dr. Morgan and get an appointment same day, wait for no more than a few minutes in her waiting room to see her, and most importantly, I am meeting with a doctor that knows me and my medical history well; somebody who has earned my trust and respect, and somebody who has become a close friend.  I'm happy to spend a few extra baht for all of that.  Not to sound banal but "you often get what you pay for".  Just saying ????

 

[WaveHunter]

11 hours ago, flare said:

Anyone currently using the IM injection method should do a little research on the latest info regarding injecting testosterone (cypionate or enanthate) via the subcutaneous route (the recommended needle being 25G 5/8"- that's 15.875mm).

 

Both methods ultimately provide the user with the same average level over time, but the subQ injections show less variation (T level tends to spike and ebb between injection days) over IM due to the slower absorption rate of fat vs muscle- it's also way easier to inject yourself.  
 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with going IM and I'm not trying to start a big argument over how T should be injected- it's just that subQ is another option that's become popular over the last five years or so, and has shown some possible benefits.

 

One clinical test- http://www.bioscience.org/2018/v10e/af/825/2.htm

Originally I did subQ but have now switched to IM.  From everything I've read and from discussing this with my doctor, I really think the efficacy is the same either way.  My reason for switching is that sub-Q leaves bumps under the skin, and occasionally a bruise.  It just looks a bit unsightly is all.  Shooting deep into the glutes results in none of that.  

 

You might interested to know that when I did subQ, I used an insulin syringe (i.e.: 31ga !).  Most everybody I know that does sub-Q does ti this way since it is virtually painless and leaves no scarring at all; something to be concerned with if you are injecting multiple times per week.

 

25ga is what i use now for IM (1.5 inch long needle).  I can't imagine using 25ga for sub-Q.  That must not be too comfortable.  Where do you inject, and how often do you inject weekly?  I'd be a little concerned about scarring over time with such a large needle.

 

If you want to try 31ga, you'd need to draw with something like an 18ga (what I used) and then transfer to the insulin syringe.  Injecting with 31ga takes about 45 seconds due to viscosity but no big deal.

[CNXexpat]

3 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

you often get what you pay for".  Just saying

True. But the doctor I mentioned above works also in a hospital. My wife's doctor also demands 200 Baht doctor fee and works beside his office in a hospital. But if Dr. Morgan gets 500 Baht from her patients, she makes everything right. 

[WaveHunter]

9 hours ago, hyku1147 said:

I would only do TRT under a doctors supervision because the following side effects need to be treated:

HPTA suppression/shut down.

Testicular shrinkage.

Aromatase enzyme converting testosterone to estrogen.

Gynecomastia.

Emotional instability.

 

Agree you should only do TRT under a doctor's supervision.  I know a lot of guys don't because it's so easy to get Test here in Thailand without any prescription being required.  Even worse, it's very easy to buy fake Test which can be a pretty bad thing to do...so only buy from a trusted pharmacy or through a doctor. 

 

That doesn't mean you have to visit a TRT doctor every week for your shots, though there are some TRT doctors who will try to get as much money from you as they can with unnecessary visits. 

 

At the very least, you should consult IN PERSON with a good doctor familiar with TRT protocols.  It doesn't need to be a specialist necessarily.  A battery of blood tests should be performed so that you having a starting benchmark of things besides testosterone levels like, estrogen, hematocrit, etc.  Then follow-up panels a month later or so the doctor can titrate your dosage and determine is things like an aromatase inhibitor are necessary (for E2).  Then after that, most doctors recommend quarterly testing. 

 

Blood testing in Thailand is incredibly inexpensive and you can simply walk into any of many independent labs to do it...no big deal, and typical battery of panels may cost you around 1,000 baht or so.  

 

Doing it the RIGHT way is not really a big cost in time or money.  Doing it the wrong way can cost you YOUR HEALTH in no uncertain terms!

 

HPTA suppression is a given with TRT; no way around that but not really a big deal as long as you are injecting the proper amount of exogenous test on a regular basis.  For most, when and if you quit TRT, HPTA will rebound; permanent, irreversible shutdown is largely a myth.   Testicular shrinkage; again no big deal, mainly a vanity thing and it doesn't happen to all guys.  If you're concerned, there are ways to deal with it (i.e.: hCG).  A doctor can advise; don't self-administer!

 

Controlling estrogen is another matter entirely; that can be very serious if it gets out of hand.  Again, it doesn't happen in every TRT case but if E2 gets too high or especially if it gets too low, you can be in a LOT of trouble without any apparent warning.  Same is true with hematocrit levels (i.e.: thick blood....NOT GOOD...as in coronary event!!)  

 

What I'm really saying is that there are a lot of things that happen when you are using exogenous test, and a simple blood test for testosterone is NOT the answer.  Other blood tests are seriously important and they need to be interpreted by a physician, not the internet or somebody at the gym...yeah I know use of Test is very popular in gym crowd! 

 

TRT is very safe and effective providing you are not stupid about it ????

 

Sorry for blabbing on but I feel strongly on this and know a lot of guys underestimate the importance of being safe with TRT.

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

39 minutes ago, CNXexpat said:

True. But the doctor I mentioned above works also in a hospital. My wife's doctor also demands 200 Baht doctor fee and works beside his office in a hospital. But if Dr. Morgan gets 500 Baht from her patients, she makes everything right. 

I don't mind paying a premium to a doctor I really believe in and who I can think of as MY personal physician.  In Dr. Morgan's case, I know she charges a premium but IMO she deserves it, and like I said before I like the small clinic atmosphere, the fact that everybody there speaks fluent English, and it doesn't have that cold impersonal feeling of a hospital clinic.

 

Besides I come from the USA where cost of medicine is simply obscene!  I consider the cost of health care in Thailand to be one of the best bargain of living here, and I'm not just speaking of cost but quality as well.  I think we're both in agreement on that.  A few baht one oway or the other is no big deal ????

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by WaveHunter

[flare]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

Originally I did subQ but have now switched to IM.  From everything I've read and from discussing this with my doctor, I really think the efficacy is the same either way.  My reason for switching is that sub-Q leaves bumps under the skin, and occasionally a bruise.  It just looks a bit unsightly is all.  Shooting deep into the glutes results in none of that.  

 

You might interested to know that when I did subQ, I used an insulin syringe (i.e.: 31ga !).  Most everybody I know that does sub-Q does ti this way since it is virtually painless and leaves no scarring at all; something to be concerned with if you are injecting multiple times per week.

 

25ga is what i use now for IM (1.5 inch long needle).  I can't imagine using 25ga for sub-Q.  That must not be too comfortable.  Where do you inject, and how often do you inject weekly?  I'd be a little concerned about scarring over time with such a large needle.

 

If you want to try 31ga, you'd need to draw with something like an 18ga (what I used) and then transfer to the insulin syringe.  Injecting with 31ga takes about 45 seconds due to viscosity but no big deal.

Yes- I draw with an 18g as well.  I'm surprised you had an issue with a lump- what volume were you injecting?  Less than 1.5ml shouldn't be a problem.  It's possible that a slightly longer needle may have made a difference- I believe the max length for an insulin needle in 0.5", with some being shorter.  If you're really lean that would be OK, but I find the 5/8" works well- it's very rare that I get a bruise, and never a lump- everyone reacts differently, of course.

 

31g is the narrowest needle I've heard yet for shooting T- I have a friend who uses a 29g, and he says it takes ~20 seconds- I don't have the patience to leave the needle in for 45 seconds like you????, and like to get it over with as soon as possible- the 25g really isn't bad (I shoot about 2" left or right of the navel).
 

I go to the gym most days, and the mild soreness of the IM shot (which I wouldn't have noticed without exercising) was exacerbated when I lifted weights and was bothering me, and subQ took care of that.

 

I do believe in the research re: level variation being less with the slower absorption via the fat layer, but, as I inject twice per week, it's not really a big concern- if I injected once per week, I think going subQ would definitely make a difference.

[WaveHunter]

40 minutes ago, flare said:

Yes- I draw with an 18g as well.  I'm surprised you had an issue with a lump- what volume were you injecting?  Less than 1.5ml shouldn't be a problem.  It's possible that a slightly longer needle may have made a difference- I believe the max length for an insulin needle in 0.5", with some being shorter.  If you're really lean that would be OK, but I find the 5/8" works well- it's very rare that I get a bruise, and never a lump- everyone reacts differently, of course.

 

31g is the narrowest needle I've heard yet for shooting T- I have a friend who uses a 29g, and he says it takes ~20 seconds- I don't have the patience to leave the needle in for 45 seconds like you????, and like to get it over with as soon as possible- the 25g really isn't bad (I shoot about 2" left or right of the navel).
 

I go to the gym most days, and the mild soreness of the IM shot (which I wouldn't have noticed without exercising) was exacerbated when I lifted weights and was bothering me, and subQ took care of that.

 

I do believe in the research re: level variation being less with the slower absorption via the fat layer, but, as I inject twice per week, it's not really a big concern- if I injected once per week, I think going subQ would definitely make a difference.

I do 30 units per injection (i.e.: 0.3ml), twice a week.  My doctor told me anything under 50 units (0.5ml) is not a problem for putting too much Test under the skin in sub-Q but still I get cosmetic bumps.  They're hardly noticeable and not painful or anything like that, but I can feel them with my hand and it just bothered me, and an occasional black & blue spot is not very pretty LOL! 

 

Also, I think the oil that the test is suspended in stays in the fat layer much longer than it does in muscle.  I think the actual testosterone is dispersed throughout the body just the same whether it is sub-Q or IM, but with subQ, the remaining oil deposits stay in the fat layer right under the skin much longer than in muscle because the oil is a fatty substance and fat mixing with fat just takes longer to dissipate.

 

Also, I have to confess I just got tired of spending the time involved with an insulin syringe and that was the other reason I switched to IM.

 

There's a lot about TRT that is best left to personal discretion I think.  Even though I've read as much as I can on TRT and think subQ vs IM is moot at TRT levels, psychologically I feel like injecting deep into the glute is more effective.  I know it really probably isn't, but I like to think it is. 

 

It's funny you mentioned the "pain in the butt" thing about IM in glutes.  I remember the first time I did a glute injection.  It was right after a heavy lower body workout at the gym (free weight squats and deadlifts).  I went to bed after the injection and then the next morning I got up and my butt was sore, and I was so proud of how intense my workout must have been to feel like that...until I realized it was on only one side LOL!

Edited November 26, 2019 by WaveHunter

[Somnambulist]

On 11/25/2019 at 7:25 PM, WaveHunter said:

It's across the street from her office.  Here's link to Dr. Morgan's office:  https://goo.gl/maps/VbJJ7p3ihvwSFK2p6

I agree that Dr. Morgan is an excellent choice.  Her English and professionalism are top notch, she took time to explain everything very thoroughly without any prodding, and she just obviously cares.  
I got tested and am good to go, 0.5 ml of enanthate every fifth day.  She said there is a much better option called Nebido, injection every 3 months,  but the initial 2 shots are 6 wks apart. The only down side of it - price , it costs 8600 THB/shot. I might switch to that eventually.  I have to go back for blood count and liver enzyme test in 2 months because we need to try to find the optimal dosage that will give me good results without any serious side effects. 
If anyone is self administering testosterone without any tests, you are playing with fire.  You can end up with pituitary problems, prostate cancer, and man boobs.  

[WaveHunter]

On 12/16/2019 at 12:24 AM, Somnambulist said:

I agree that Dr. Morgan is an excellent choice.  Her English and professionalism are top notch, she took time to explain everything very thoroughly without any prodding, and she just obviously cares.  
I got tested and am good to go, 0.5 ml of enanthate every fifth day.  She said there is a much better option called Nebido, injection every 3 months,  but the initial 2 shots are 6 wks apart. The only down side of it - price , it costs 8600 THB/shot. I might switch to that eventually.  I have to go back for blood count and liver enzyme test in 2 months because we need to try to find the optimal dosage that will give me good results without any serious side effects. 
If anyone is self administering testosterone without any tests, you are playing with fire.  You can end up with pituitary problems, prostate cancer, and man boobs.  

Just my personal opinion but I think Nebido is not a wise choice.  I certainly may be mistaken but I think Enanthate provides a more stable level of Testosterone in your system over time.  It's just hard for me to imagine that your Testosterone levels are not going to decline some over a 3 month period between injections.

 

Also, over a 3 month period, Enanthate is going to be significantly less expensive, and also probably much more readily available than Nebido at most pharmacies.

 

Doing two injections per week of Enanthate is no big deal.  Considering the half-life of Enanthate, even one injection per week is probably fine but I like the idea of 2/week for a more stable level of Test in your system and less Test introduced per injection (not really sure it's a plus to do it like that but I like to think it is.)  If I were still doing it sub-Q, I would definitely split up weekly dosage into two injections just to avoid "lumps" under the skin from the oil build-up.

 

Newbs might be uncomfortable about frequency of injections but two per week is no big deal as long as you rotate injection sites (i.e.: left glute / right glute or with sub-Q, left side of abs / right side of abs).  You get used to injections after a while and to the point where it's no more bothersome than brushing your teeth ????

 

Just my personal view on this, but I've been on TRT for over 3 years now and I'm very happy with my protocol, and my blood work is always spot-on.

 

Most importantly, as op said, doing TRT without MD supervision is just plain dumb, so everything I am saying here are just suggestions to discuss WITH YOUR DOCTOR!  If one tries to be their own doctor with TRT, then they have a fool as a patient.

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by WaveHunter

[Vacuum]

On 4/25/2019 at 8:28 AM, MickeyDelux said:

exercise everyday, eat a healthy whole food diet, regularly practice fasting, don't drink alcohol, don't smoke cigarettes, don't use non-prescription drugs, don't watch porn/masturbate. If you're overweight, lose it. Do this and your libido will improve immensely, in as little as 30 days, and you'll save money. Keep doing it and you'll surprise yourself and your partner(s) with your vitality. 

Sounds like joining the monkhood.

[DLock]

On 12/17/2019 at 2:01 PM, Vacuum said:

Sounds like joining the monkhood.

 

...well, except the drinking, smoking, porn and drugs...that's apparently still allowed in the monkhood.

[NaamGin]

On 11/25/2019 at 7:21 PM, Somnambulist said:

Is HCMC in the Geriatric Medical Center?  If not, could you post a map or link?  

It's directly cross the street from the Geriatric Hospital.