Do you believe in God and why

[VincentRJ]

2 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

Behind all your posts there is always the unspoken assumption that modern science will eventually unveil 'all mysteries of the universe' (and thus - in one go - eradicate the need for (a) God as answer to what we do not understand yet).

Call me the Anti-Scientist, which is indeed correct in view of the arrogance of modern science as Only Way towards Knowledge and Understanding,

That's not my assumption. In my opinion, science is revealing that the more we know, the greater becomes our awareness of what we don't know. An obvious example is the current Hypothesis that 95% of the matter and energy that surrounds us is invisible and undetectable (Dark Matter and Dark Energy).

 

Consider the implications of that. After a few centuries of significant scientific and technological development that allows us to even fly to the moon, we are at the stage of considering that our most sophisticated scientific instruments are currently able to detect, potentially, only 5% of the matter and energy in the universe. 

 

The word 'potentially' is significant here, because we are still unable to detect most of the details. Whilst the Hubble telescope can detect the presence of a galaxy billions of light years away from Earth, it cannot detect the presence of planets revolving around individual stars in that galaxy.

 

Science has informed us that the total sum of our entire knowledge of the universe and our immediate surrounding in still minuscule. Only certain mystical Gurus and Meditators claim to know everything. ????
 

[mauGR1]

28 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

You seem to be falling into the dichotomy of 'either/or'. Chance or randomness is often a part of many events and processes. It is defined by 'degrees of probability'.

 

The number of atoms, molecules, sub-atomic particles, photons and electromagnetic waves, just in the room where you are sitting, is absolutely enormous, in the trillions upon trillions; and those particles and waves are continuously bouncing around, emitting and absorbing electromagnetic energy every microsecond (millionth of a second).

 

Theoretically, or hypothetically, if we had control over the movement of every particle and wave in our surroundings, and also within our own body, we could call ourselves 'God'. ????
In that sense one could argue that what is chance or randomness is no more than our inability to understand and observe all the minor details that would enable us to predict a particular chain of events.

 

You've probably heard of the 'butterfly effect'. If a butterfly flaps its wings in South America, then a hurricane could result in Europe (or some other location).
This is an analogy (you do understand an analogy, don't you? ????  ), which emphasizes that a very small initial event can gradually lead, through many processes of 'cause and effect', to a much more significant result.

Funny that you ask me if I understand the concept of analogy,  when I have put loads of analogies under your nose.

That said,  we were talking about randomness just a couple of days ago, and there was some consensus about the non-existence of randomness.. my opinion instead was, and is, that a minuscule part of randomness can be an active ingredient of the soup we call "life".

But my main point is, the order of the universe,  which is in agreement with universal laws,  cannot happen by chance, but is the result of an intelligent design, which for some reason is invisible to you and others. 

 

 

[VincentRJ]

5 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

 

But my main point is, the order of the universe,  which is in agreement with universal laws,  cannot happen by chance, but is the result of an intelligent design, which for some reason is invisible to you and others. 

 

There is a reason, just like Dark Matter and Dark Energy is invisible, for a good reason. It doesn't appear to interact much with conventional Baryonic matter, which is what we and our detectable surroundings are all made of. ????

[fondue zoo]

Humans are an imaginative species, so far we've come up with approximately 3000+ deities.

[Surelynot]

Just now, fondue zoo said:

Humans are an imaginative species, so far we've come up with approximately 3000+ deities.

Yes, but 2999 of them are false.

[fondue zoo]

 

There have been 3000 Gods so far but only yours actually exists.The others are silly made up nonsense. But not yours. Yours is real.  ????

[mauGR1]

22 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

There is a reason, just like Dark Matter and Dark Energy is invisible, for a good reason. It doesn't appear to interact much with conventional Baryonic matter, which is what we and our detectable surroundings are all made of. ????

Now I am surprised,  perhaps a lack of understanding on my side. 

There is a reason for everything,  but, as I think you said before, life can happen "by chance"...?

Nothing to worry anyway,  apparently contradictions are a sign of intelligence ????

[Sunmaster]

2 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

That's not my assumption. In my opinion, science is revealing that the more we know, the greater becomes our awareness of what we don't know. An obvious example is the current Hypothesis that 95% of the matter and energy that surrounds us is invisible and undetectable (Dark Matter and Dark Energy).

 

Consider the implications of that. After a few centuries of significant scientific and technological development that allows us to even fly to the moon, we are at the stage of considering that our most sophisticated scientific instruments are currently able to detect, potentially, only 5% of the matter and energy in the universe. 

 

The word 'potentially' is significant here, because we are still unable to detect most of the details. Whilst the Hubble telescope can detect the presence of a galaxy billions of light years away from Earth, it cannot detect the presence of planets revolving around individual stars in that galaxy.

 

Science has informed us that the total sum of our entire knowledge of the universe and our immediate surrounding in still minuscule. Only certain mystical Gurus and Meditators claim to know everything. ????
 

Maybe you can copy/paste another Taoist story to support your point. I'm sure one or the other here will then be kind enough to explain its meaning to you. ???? 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Sunmaster

[VincentRJ]

3 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Now I am surprised,  perhaps a lack of understanding on my side. 

There is a reason for everything,  but, as I think you said before, life can happen "by chance"...?

Nothing to worry anyway,  apparently contradictions are a sign of intelligence ????

No contradiction, just your misunderstanding. Isn't it obvious that 'reason' exists only in the human mind. You will not find 'reason' hanging on a tree, or buried in the soil, or floating on Mars. ????

 

'Chance' is a measurement of the lack of control and/or understanding we have of the variables that influence something and anything. Chance is always present to some degree. When you buy a new TV set which has a 5 year warranty, there's a very small chance the TV will malfunction within the first few weeks of use, but a far greater chance it will malfunction after 5 or 10 years of use.

 

There is a theory that predicts when you drop something it might hover for a second or more, and even momentarily rise, before falling to the ground. This is because the atoms, even in solid objects, are always in some degree of motion, and there is always a chance that most of the atoms in the object could be momentarily aligned so that they exert a magnetic force that resists the force of gravity at the precise moment the object is dropped. However, because the atoms are always in motion, such an effect would be very momentary, and the chances that so many atoms could all be in alignment at the same time you dropped the object, would be extremely remote.

 

In fact, so remote it might never have happened during the entire history of humanity, except for Yogis and Gurus who sometimes claim to see solid objects floating in the air. ????

[mauGR1]

36 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

No contradiction, just your misunderstanding. Isn't it obvious that 'reason' exists only in the human mind. You will not find 'reason' hanging on a tree, or buried in the soil, or floating on Mars. ????

It's obvious eh.. I stopped reading the verbosity here..

Pls show me factual evidence that reason exists only in the human mind, when just observing the nature at work should tell you how reasoned and reasonable is everything. 

Actually the most unreasonable beings I had the pleasure to meet were humans, or perhaps some dog badly trained by some human. 

I will read the rest of the post later, yet, even if I disagree with you sometimes,  I'd like to thank you for the staunch contribution to this interesting thread. ????

[mauGR1]

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

Chance' is a measurement of the lack of control and/or understanding we have of the variables that influence something and anything. Chance is always present to some degree. When you buy a new TV set which has a 5 year warranty, there's a very small chance the TV will malfunction within the first few weeks of use, but a far greater chance it will malfunction after 5 or 10 years

Agree on that.

The biblical tale of Lucifer, the angel who dared to sing his own songs, is a metaphor of that theory. 

Now , if the creator did add "chance" to the soup intentionally or not, that's an intriguing matter of discussion. 

[VincentRJ]

4 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

It's obvious eh.. I stopped reading the verbosity here..

Pls show me factual evidence that reason exists only in the human mind, when just observing the nature at work should tell you how reasoned and reasonable is everything. 

Actually the most unreasonable beings I had the pleasure to meet were humans, or perhaps some dog badly trained by some human. 

I will read the rest of the post later, yet, even if I disagree with you sometimes,  I'd like to thank you for the staunch contribution to this interesting thread. ????

Looks like you are failing to understand the actual meaning of some of the words you use.

Here's the etymology and meaning of the word 'reason'.

 

"intellectual faculty that adopts actions to ends," also "statement in an argument, statement of explanation or justification," from Anglo-French resoun, Old French raison "course; matter; subject; language, speech; thought, opinion," from Latin rationem (nominative ratio) "reckoning, understanding, motive, cause," from ratus, past participle of reri "to reckon, think," from PIE root *re- "to reason, count.

Meaning "sanity; degree of intelligence that distinguishes men from brutes" is recorded from late 13c."

https://www.etymonline.com/word/reason

 

The most important quality that distinguishes humans from other animals is our capacity for abstract thought and language, which is associated with a particular set of genes, and which enables us to reason. Reasoning is a thought process. It doesn't exist outside of the mind. It might exist in a very limited sense in other animals, but if it does, it still exists only in the mind of those animals.

[Peter Denis]

8 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Now I am surprised,  perhaps a lack of understanding on my side. 

There is a reason for everything,  but, as I think you said before, life can happen "by chance"...?

Nothing to worry anyway,  apparently contradictions are a sign of intelligence ????

 

5 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

No contradiction, just your misunderstanding. Isn't it obvious that 'reason' exists only in the human mind. You will not find 'reason' hanging on a tree, or buried in the soil, or floating on Mars. ????

@VincentRJ

mauGR1 in his post stated 'There is a reason for everything, ...' (in the sense that there is a CAUSE for everything) and that led you then to claim that 'reason exists only in the human mind'.

Looks like you are failing to understand the actual meaning of some of the words you use. ????

 

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

wouldn't you agree?

No.

Do you think that if enough monkeys were given typewriters eventually they would come up with a Shakespearean play?

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Looks like you are failing to understand the actual meaning of some of the words you use.

Here's the etymology and meaning of the word 'reason'.

 

"intellectual faculty that adopts actions to ends," also "statement in an argument, statement of explanation or justification," from Anglo-French resoun, Old French raison "course; matter; subject; language, speech; thought, opinion," from Latin rationem (nominative ratio) "reckoning, understanding, motive, cause," from ratus, past participle of reri "to reckon, think," from PIE root *re- "to reason, count.

Meaning "sanity; degree of intelligence that distinguishes men from brutes" is recorded from late 13c."

https://www.etymonline.com/word/reason

 

The most important quality that distinguishes humans from other animals is our capacity for abstract thought and language, which is associated with a particular set of genes, and which enables us to reason. Reasoning is a thought process. It doesn't exist outside of the mind. It might exist in a very limited sense in other animals, but if it does, it still exists only in the mind of those animals.

I'd be more convinced by your argument re "reason" if more humans used it. Most I know are quite unreasonable, let alone lacking in consideration, empathy or sense. Then again, perhaps I'm just unlucky in the sort of people I have encountered.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Consider the implications of that. After a few centuries of significant scientific and technological development that allows us to even fly to the moon, we are at the stage of considering that our most sophisticated scientific instruments are currently able to detect, potentially, only 5% of the matter and energy in the universe. 

Which would certainly apply to the existence or otherwise of God. If we can't even detect 95% of the matter and energy in the universe, then how can anyone state as a fact that God does not exist? At best it's an opinion.

[VincentRJ]

6 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

 

@VincentRJ

mauGR1 in his post stated 'There is a reason for everything, ...' (in the sense that there is a CAUSE for everything) and that led you then to claim that 'reason exists only in the human mind'.

Looks like you are failing to understand the actual meaning of some of the words you use. ????

 

Wow! I'm so grateful that you are able to correct me. I might learn something new. ????

Please show me the evidence, from whatever dictionaries you use, that 'cause' means 'reason', and 'reason' means 'cause', or that the two words are synonyms.

 

My understanding is that reason, and reasoning, are thought processes which occur in the mind. Such thought processes may or may not accurately describe and explain the 'cause and effect' processes we observe in our surroundings, but whether or not the explanations are correct, such explanations or reasons exist only in the mind.

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No.

Do you think that if enough monkeys were given typewriters eventually they would come up with a Shakespearean play?

 

Not really, because they would have better priorities than sitting at a typewriter all day. They have to feed themselves, search for mates in order to procreate, and fight off predators. However, inanimate chemicals have no priorities. They spend 24 hours a day bumping into each other. Not even sleep is required. ????

 

It's also interesting to note that the common ancestors of both humans and the current apes were able to eventually write Shakespearean plays without using any typewriters. The typewriter was a later invention. ????

 

 

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'd be more convinced by your argument re "reason" if more humans used it. Most I know are quite unreasonable, let alone lacking in consideration, empathy or sense. Then again, perhaps I'm just unlucky in the sort of people I have encountered.

You're falling into the duality trap of 'either/or'. There's a wide spectrum of different shades or degrees of reasoning complexity. Even those whom you think are rather stupid will probably be able to offer a 'reason' why it is not a good idea to stick their hand in a fire. ????

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Which would certainly apply to the existence or otherwise of God. If we can't even detect 95% of the matter and energy in the universe, then how can anyone state as a fact that God does not exist? At best it's an opinion.

In such discussions I don't recall any atheists claiming that it is a 'fact' that God does not exist.

 

Most reasonable people take the view that whether or not there exists an entity that fits the definition of a 'God', is an 'unknowable'.
Even Buddhists, Taoists, and Confucianists, centuries ago, understood it was impossible to determine if there existed an ultimate or absolute 'Creator God'.

[mauGR1]

10 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Looks like you are failing to understand the actual meaning of some of the words you use.

Here's the etymology and meaning of the word 'reason'.

 

"intellectual faculty that adopts actions to ends," also "statement in an argument, statement of explanation or justification," from Anglo-French resoun, Old French raison "course; matter; subject; language, speech; thought, opinion," from Latin rationem (nominative ratio) "reckoning, understanding, motive, cause," from ratus, past participle of reri "to reckon, think," from PIE root *re- "to reason, count.

Meaning "sanity; degree of intelligence that distinguishes men from brutes" is recorded from late 13c."

https://www.etymonline.com/word/reason

 

The most important quality that distinguishes humans from other animals is our capacity for abstract thought and language, which is associated with a particular set of genes, and which enables us to reason. Reasoning is a thought process. It doesn't exist outside of the mind. It might exist in a very limited sense in other animals, but if it does, it still exists only in the mind of those animals.

Reason exists independently from the human mind. 

We are learning to use what we call "reason", but this is not a proof that reason can't exist without humans. 

I can have some respect for your anthropocentric vision,  but I can't accept it as the ultimate truth. 

If i asked you,  what is the reason for the existence of life, not you, nor i would be able to give a clear,  definitive answer, but to say that there's no reason for the existence of life would be a bit arrogant imho. 

[sirineou]

8 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

f i asked you,  what is the reason for the existence of life, not you, nor i would be able to give a clear,

I can give a perfectly clear answer,   . 

To make more life, everything else a constructs toward that goal

13 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Reason exists independently from the human mind. 

I beg to differ, but by definition "reason" is a function of the mind

rea·son

the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Peter Denis]

3 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Wow! I'm so grateful that you are able to correct me. I might learn something new. ????

Please show me the evidence, from whatever dictionaries you use, that 'cause' means 'reason', and 'reason' means 'cause', or that the two words are synonyms.

...

Easy.  I simply typed in 'meaning of reason' in Google > and this is the first that came up:

[mauGR1]

16 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I can give a perfectly clear answer,   . 

To make more life, everything else a constructs toward that goal

I beg to differ, but by definition "reason" is a function of the mind

rea·son

the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, as you say, there is a reason for the existence of life, ergo reason doesn't need humans to exist.

 

[Sunmaster]

3 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

In such discussions I don't recall any atheists claiming that it is a 'fact' that God does not exist.

 

Most reasonable people take the view that whether or not there exists an entity that fits the definition of a 'God', is an 'unknowable'.
Even Buddhists, Taoists, and Confucianists, centuries ago, understood it was impossible to determine if there existed an ultimate or absolute 'Creator God'.

You're kidding, right?!?! ????

 

That was one of the main issues I had with atheists (you included!) here in this thread. All they ever do is camouflaging their opinions as facts. The ones you talk about are the rare exceptions here.

 

"There is no God" ain't the same as "I don't think there is a God".

 

Buddhists and Taoists don't teach about God because they prefer to focus on the non dual/impersonal aspect of All-There-Is. Others prefer the personal aspect, according to their own inclination.

Maybe they (Buddhists  and Taoists) didn't talk about a God figure, but they certainly talked about a unifying divine force.

The focus of Confucianism was not the esoteric teaching but mainly to give moral and social guidelines.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Sunmaster

[jvs]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

There is no God" ain't the same as "I don't think there is a God".

Both are just an opinion by whom ever says it.

Goes right back to the essence of this topic,neither can be proved or disproved.

 

[Sunmaster]

19 minutes ago, jvs said:

Both are just an opinion by whom ever says it.

Goes right back to the essence of this topic,neither can be proved or disproved.

 

Yes, they are both opinions. The first one though, is a categorical statement and does not leave any room for discussion. Far from being the "reasonable people" mentioned above. 

As for proof...we've talked about this at length. If you require scientific proof for the existence of God, then yes...you'll be disappointed. No amount of proof will ever be enough to satisfy your doubts.
However, once you understand that the subjective experience of the divine is the only proof you'll ever need, then you're in for a world of wonder.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Sunmaster

[jvs]

7 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Yes, they are both opinions. The first one though, is a categorical statement and does not leave any room for discussion. Far from being the "reasonable people" mentioned above. 

As for proof...we've talked about this at length. If you require scientific proof for the existence of God, then yes...you'll be disappointed. No amount of proof will ever be enough to satisfy your doubts.
However, once you understand that the subjective experience of the divine is the only proof you'll ever need, then you're in for a world of wonder.

There is also no scientific proof that god does not exists,there seems to be a lot of room for discussion,nearly 750 pages already.

Saying ";i do not believe there is a God;can mean different things motivated by different ideas.

I consider myself being a reasonable person and i am totally baffled by the opinions by some here and the opinions by the same people in other topics.

That is one of the main reasons i am against(most)religions and their followers,they don't practice what they preach!

I am not really well versed on all that there is about this topic on the internet,i have no quotes

or others peoples ideas to hide behind.

It is how and what i feel about this subject and i believe in the very end it will be just me and death and whatever(if anything) comes than.

If there is a God or another entity that will judge all of us i believe he or she will judge us

by the way we lived and not by which church or God we followed.

 

 

[Sunmaster]

14 minutes ago, jvs said:

There is also no scientific proof that god does not exists,there seems to be a lot of room for discussion,nearly 750 pages already.

Saying ";i do not believe there is a God;can mean different things motivated by different ideas.

I consider myself being a reasonable person and i am totally baffled by the opinions by some here and the opinions by the same people in other topics.

That is one of the main reasons i am against(most)religions and their followers,they don't practice what they preach!

I am not really well versed on all that there is about this topic on the internet,i have no quotes

or others peoples ideas to hide behind.

It is how and what i feel about this subject and i believe in the very end it will be just me and death and whatever(if anything) comes than.

If there is a God or another entity that will judge all of us i believe he or she will judge us

by the way we lived and not by which church or God we followed.

 

 

Fair enough.
I won't answer in regards of the religious people because that's not really my department, but I get what you're saying. People (religious and not) have certain ideals or ways they like to see themselves. How those ideals hold up in times when they're put to test, is another thing entirely. Not restricted to religious people though.

 

[Tagged]

6 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Fair enough.
I won't answer in regards of the religious people because that's not really my department, but I get what you're saying. People (religious and not) have certain ideals or ways they like to see themselves. How those ideals hold up in times when they're put to test, is another thing entirely. Not restricted to religious people though.

 

The question is: Why is it so important to know a god, that really do not want to be found, even people claim to know many variants of a god, power or a source? But most people will never know what the other is talking about, or understand each other even they warship the same god, spirit or force. Why not embrace and warship what this god or creator created for us all? It is everywhere around us, right here right in front of all if us? Everybody can see, feel, touch, smell and taste it everyday!

 

So much energy of egoistic narsistic reasons to find something there id not to be find exept intheir own mind only and personal reasons. A perfect example to run away and escape life diving in to religion and spiritualisn and warshipping in something of no other value than keeping themdelves focused, busy and in the end trying to convince everyone else they know and they found it.

 

Btw I did find it, and I know and I already told you. Simplicity,,,,,,,,,,, 

 

Right here right now!