Catholic Church Implodes

[taxexile]

Catholic Church implodes arguing where it stands on gay divorce

Vatican officials have called an urgent council to try and settle the Catholic’s official stance on gay divorce. Since new legislation allowed gay couples to enter civil partnerships, thousands of same sex couples have become ‘married’ despite fierce opposition from the Catholic Church. However with the first legal separations of gay couples now taking place, the Vatican has been unable to decide whether to stand by its historic opposition to divorce or whether they should welcome and indeed encourage the failure of same-sex marriage.

‘It’s a really difficult one for us’ said Cardinal Foyle from Galway. ‘We are opposed to these homosexuals being allowed to marry. But we also maintain that marriage is for life. Are we pleased that the sin of gay marriage is atoned for, or do we pray for those who are considering the sin of divorce? I’m ######ed if I know.’

There are factions in the Vatican that would like to have all gay people excommunicated and any children, adopted or otherwise taken in to care. Others are more tolerant, urging the church to engage with the gay community. During a recent synod, the argument became so heated that several bishops got involved in an ugly fist-fight, and had to be separated with their crooks. Accusations made about the bishop’s choirboys were later retracted but the debate continues.

‘Do two wrongs make a right? Why does the bible say that a man shall love his fellow man, but then not allow that other stuff? What if a man has a gay partner who then has a sex-change so the love is between a man and his ladyboy wife? Is there a website where I can learn more about this?’

[PeaceBlondie]

What will happen if the lady who was "Beautiful Boxer" wishes to convert to Catholicism in Thailand? Has my son in Ireland told his parish priest that Daddy has a Thai boyfriend? Can a gay Catholic Thai take communion if the priest knows the parishioner is openly gay?

The opening post is rather funny, especially since the Anglican church just told its American branch (Episcopalians) they would excommunicate all the American Anglicans if the churches don't stop confirming same-sex marriages. The opening post is also comical since the Protestant churches gave up on the 'divorce and re-marriage' issue decades ago. Let's see, if I can marry my boyfriend and get divorced, can I then get married to another boyfriend? What sayeth the bishop of the Catholic churches in Thailand?

[jumnien]

It's funny that the Catholic church says it against homosexuality when of the 10 Jesuits I know, 7 or 8 are very openly homosexual and love their little jaunts to Thailand.

[ProThaiExpat]

What little I know of Buddhism, I think they don't fall into the same power trip that the clergy of the Catholic Church do. Their dogma usually issues forth everytime dimmunition of their power over the people who follow them is challenged.

Their are liberal forces as well as concervative forces at work in the Catholic Church as their are in any other political organizations including governments who rule countries.

At present conservatism is doing its damage in the Catholic Church as it is in the U.S. government and the world is not better for it. Conservatisim is the hand maiden of dictatorships and the Catholic Church is a prime example. Catholic Bishops in the U.S. actually tell their parishoners who to vote for and deny communion to politicians who don't follow their dogma. Clearly unconstitutional activity but yet they keep their tax free status as charities when they are in fact political organizations.

George W. Bush, a born again Christian and his neocons allied with the Catholic Church have done their thing for six years and the world is witness to their record.

The pendulum is swinging back, finally, but how long will it take to recover from the carnage. Imagine if the separation of church and state is allowed to drift further into the morass of the funding of "faith based" organizaitons. Brilliant scientists have end run Bush's religious based denial of funds for stem cell research, the greatest scientific discovery toward oveall health regeneration in history.

The foregoing borders on a rant, for which I apologise, but each sentence suggests what damage to humanity religion in government brings about, and when that religion is repressive, power hungry and political, such as in the Catholic Church, mankind suffers. Sure they do some good, but how good is it if one is forced to listen to religious indoctrination inorder to get a meal in a church soup kitchen?

[farangsay]

Nice troll , Tax , but flawed logic.

As any good RC knows the marriage ceremony can only

be validly performed by an RC priest.

Otherwise it is not a valid marriage.

Now the thing to watch out for is this :

Nookie outside the marriage bed gets you the hot place for ever

Nookie with someone of the same sex gets you ditto

For ever and ever

Amen

PS

Any Pope is de facto a conservative.

Several centuries one of the holders of this office of dodgy origins

decided he was infallible. Ever since any Pope has to review everything

his predecessors have said on a given subject so as not to contradict them.

Kinda limits his options doesn't it ?

[jdinasia]

Catholic Church implodes arguing where it stands on gay divorce

Vatican officials have called an urgent council to try and settle the Catholic’s official stance on gay divorce. Since new legislation allowed gay couples to enter civil partnerships, thousands of same sex couples have become ‘married’ despite fierce opposition from the Catholic Church. However with the first legal separations of gay couples now taking place, the Vatican has been unable to decide whether to stand by its historic opposition to divorce or whether they should welcome and indeed encourage the failure of same-sex marriage.

‘It’s a really difficult one for us’ said Cardinal Foyle from Galway. ‘We are opposed to these homosexuals being allowed to marry. But we also maintain that marriage is for life. Are we pleased that the sin of gay marriage is atoned for, or do we pray for those who are considering the sin of divorce? I’m ######ed if I know.’

There are factions in the Vatican that would like to have all gay people excommunicated and any children, adopted or otherwise taken in to care. Others are more tolerant, urging the church to engage with the gay community. During a recent synod, the argument became so heated that several bishops got involved in an ugly fist-fight, and had to be separated with their crooks. Accusations made about the bishop’s choirboys were later retracted but the debate continues.

‘Do two wrongs make a right? Why does the bible say that a man shall love his fellow man, but then not allow that other stuff? What if a man has a gay partner who then has a sex-change so the love is between a man and his ladyboy wife? Is there a website where I can learn more about this?’

Thailand?

[PeaceBlondie]

C'mon, JD, I closed the other non-Thailand thread, but the gay forum is a whole lot less rigid - you might say, not as hard - about topics related to Thailand.

Okay folks, let's see how to make this Thai related. Catholic church, gay sex, and Thailand. I've written a novel where a famous gay Protestant comes to Thailand and 'marries' a Catholic hill tribe young man, and the local Catholic missionary priest doesn't object. And the powers that be in Thailand don't object. The pope objects, but he's in Rome, not Thailand.

Until I started attending mass here, the only Catholic I knew was a Hill tribe straight man, married with children, who drives the tuk-tuk at the gay sauna.

Should I tell the priest I'm gay in Thailand? Should you?

[stevejones123]

Ever since any Pope has to review everything

his predecessors have said on a given subject so as not to contradict them.

Kinda limits his options doesn't it ?

Nope, as the Pope is infallible he's not bound by what anybody else, or even himself, said. I'd miss out on theology. It's not your strong point.

[farangsay]

Ever since any Pope has to review everything

his predecessors have said on a given subject so as not to contradict them.

Kinda limits his options doesn't it ?

Nope, as the Pope is infallible he's not bound by what anybody else, or even himself, said. I'd miss out on theology. It's not your strong point.

Neither logic or the workings of the papacy are your strong point.

Actually the rule only applies to statements made "ex Cathedra" but before

it is made every previous "ex Cathedra" statement has to be examined

for conflict. Were a Pope to make an "infallible" statement which contradicted

an "infallible" statement by a predecessor one of them would have to be wrong

and the whole principal of "infallibility" would be in the toilet. Do not make the

mistake of relying on a quick answer from your local curate on issues such as

this. He is probably no more intelligent or knowledgeable than you are.

[jumnien]

Bringing it back to the Catholic church in Thailand, am I the only one who seems to run into hordes of gay priests on sex tourism trips to Thailand vaguely veiled as "leading seminars" or educational travel?

[endure]

I simply cannot understand why any self-respecting homo would have anything to do with any organisation that cast them as less worthy than the rest of society.

[jumnien]

I simply cannot understand why any self-respecting homo would have anything to do with any organisation that cast them as less worthy than the rest of society.

Actually, the gay Catholic priests I know are treated very well by the Church and definitel no less worthy than heterosexual and renunciate priests. They are very open and obvious. What the Church says and what it does are two different things. Kind of like Thailand having very rigid laws against pornography and prostitution, but I'm told that both exist here quite openly.

[LaoPo]

I simply cannot understand why any self-respecting homo would have anything to do with any organisation that cast them as less worthy than the rest of society.

Strong point. I suppose you mean Catholic homo-priests?

This thread is highly controversial and difficult as any discussion about 'a' religion is sensitive and even more when it's about homosexual Catholic priests.

As a 'born' and baptized Catholic myself (that was the choice of my parents, not myself of course) I started 'doubting' Rome when I was a teenager; but what can you do as a young boy when you are 'forced' to go to church....not only by your parents but also by the Catholic school you were attending to....which was also, of course, a choice made by your parents....?

'Rome' was very powerful in those days in Europe and as a child you just do what your parents 'thought' what was best for you.

In the end 50's, 60's and 70's people started to 'free' themselves; liberation, the flower-power era, the Beatles, Rolling Stones and other movements changed a lot to the 'believes/religions' of a lot of people.

In the meantime there were a lot of young men who -than- became priests...out of believe....out of other 'feelings....maybe pressure from the family.......? I don't know.

Fact is that in those days, homosexuality wasn't really something openly discussed ! It was a 'forbidden' subject in the newspapers, magazines and the than upcoming Television -and radio.

We didn't even know the word 'homosexual' !

Of course there were some 'secret' rumours about priests, living next door to the church who always had a Lady (Oh boy!!) living in the same quarters, taking care -cooking, cleaning etc- of him and his fellow priests, but still no word about homosexual priests.

That came later and I would think untill 15-20 years ago when the press and televison started their stories about priests, abusing young boys and girls, but mainly boys.

In the meantime, because of declining interest of becoming a priest (in the West, but maybe not so strong in Africa, South America, Philippines etc) since times changed so rapidly, the stories became stronger and stronger -and proven true in many cases- an thus 'Rome' had a problem, a big problem.

Point is, that Rome is still covering-up many -proven- stories about abuse by homosexual priests whilst at the same time there was and still is an enormous discrepancy about the use of condoms, sex before marriage, same-sex marriage and so on.

My father, on his deathbed 10 years ago, being a true and honest -as well as phylantrope to the church- Catholic, had great moral difficulties with the 'decisions' of Rome, knowing at the same time that the world had changed, the truth had came out, and that 'his' religion wasn't anymore he believed in, all his life. That was a tragic and sad moment for him.

But, although the topic is about 'Rome', the deceipt, denial and cover-ups in any church is the same in all other religions all over the world, whether Islam, Buddism (sorry), Lutherian, Protestant, Judaism, or any other; some are more liberal than others (Islam springs to mind as an extreme 'tough' religion)

But the leaders of all religions and churches are very powerful and will try to cover up all misbehaviour from their 'priests'.

ALWAYS,........................................................... untill the moment comes that their followers wake up.

LaoPo

[endure]

I wasn't so much talking about priests but about the laity who allow the teachings of the churches to ruin their lives. I know a grown-up guy who spent years denying his sexuality and spending his time in great depression because he believed the nonsense that he was being told at his church. It was only when he saw it for the nonsense that it was that he got his life back and started to become a happier man.

[PeaceBlondie]

I wasn't so much talking about priests but about the laity who allow the teachings of the churches to ruin their lives. I know a grown-up guy who spent years denying his sexuality and spending his time in great depression because he believed the nonsense that he was being told at his church. It was only when he saw it for the nonsense that it was that he got his life back and started to become a happier man.

I think most of us have met several guys like that, especially in Thailand. Including gay Buddhists.

[lannarebirth]

I wasn't so much talking about priests but about the laity who allow the teachings of the churches to ruin their lives. I know a grown-up guy who spent years denying his sexuality and spending his time in great depression because he believed the nonsense that he was being told at his church. It was only when he saw it for the nonsense that it was that he got his life back and started to become a happier man.

I think most of us have met several guys like that, especially in Thailand. Including gay Buddhists.

Well, if you've met 2 Buddhist monks, odds are you've met at least one gay Buddhist.

[endure]

I wasn't so much talking about priests but about the laity who allow the teachings of the churches to ruin their lives. I know a grown-up guy who spent years denying his sexuality and spending his time in great depression because he believed the nonsense that he was being told at his church. It was only when he saw it for the nonsense that it was that he got his life back and started to become a happier man.

I think most of us have met several guys like that, especially in Thailand. Including gay Buddhists.

I don't know enough gay buddhists intimately enough to have an informed opinion about this but it seems to me from what I've seen that Buddhism induces nowhere near the self-loathing that the Judaic-Christian religions do in their followers. As far as I'm aware Buddhism has nothing to say specifically about homosexuality, only about inappropriate sexual conduct. The mores of Thai (especially Thai-Chinese) society may very well be a different matter but the lack, up until recently, of a 'gay community' in Thailand might seem to indicate that such organisations simply haven't been necessary. Any Thais reading this who want to comment - we welcome your views.

[bossyboss07]

Man, some of you people's posts are just nuts! I've never seen such hate over a minor article on some legal twist due to someone changing their sex.

IMHO, I say Florida can't have it both ways, if they have caselaw saying a trannie can't get married to someone of the opposite gender after their sex change operation because "you are what you are when you're born", the the judge came out exactly right on the issue. The person is still a female in the eyes of the law and the ex is required to pay alimony.

Moreover, to the person who said men are not entitled to alimony...that's bunk. If a married woman makes more money than her husband, the ex-husband should be entitled to alimony until he marries or dies the same as any ex-wife (depending on what other variables Florida law might say are factored into requiring alimony or not requireing it). Sexism is bull no matter how you cut it.

[ProThaiExpat]

The problem with the rule of law, whether in the west or in Thailand, is that is is usually made by politicians and interpreted by judges.

Thus in a fast changing political climate, such as same sex laws, politicians are maneuvering constantly to stay on the side of majority who they hope will elect them as they reflect the majority view.

Same sex marriage is an example. California, so far, has been the only state in which the duly elected legislature voted to permit same sex marriage but the governor vetoed the law. It is arguable that is was passed because the legislators knew the governor would veto it, but suffice to say, the "will of the people" of California through their duly elected representatives, was not fulfilled due to one man's political aspirations.

Such anomaly's abound between legal jurisdictions and unjust laws are there until they are overturned. Religion is just another organization of people infected with power hunger and as long as people have anything to do with anything, there will be injustice. Man's inhumanity to man, if you will.

Thailand is no more immune.

[jumnien]

Denying gay people the experience of divorce is inexplicable. What makes them so special?

[geriatrickid]

This was an amusing thread. As an agnostic heterosexual, I do wonder how people can be so clueless and in denial. The Catholic Church has specific rules, regulations and doctrines. If you want to be part of that group then you have to subscribe to the rules & regulations or you can't reallly be catholic. What's so hard about getting that? No one is forcing people to be members of the catholic church. You can join any cult or competing religion that you want.

The Church's position is on gays is consistent with its other historical positions. Classic examples are the vilification of jews, ,,,,,,, the view that Bhuddists and others with their use of godly images are sinful but the wholehearted acceptance and encouragement of people worshipping before statues of the "Virgin" Mary is ok.

Of course, the other option is to accept the fact that the Catholic church does not allow the gay lifestyle and to say ...