Driving the car in violation of the yellow light signal

[Damrongsak]

I've passed under a few "pink" lights as I call them.

[chang1]

On 4/25/2019 at 7:19 AM, gmac said:

Where did this happen, it's good to see the law being enforced for a change even if seeming a little harsh in this instance?  To be fined for going through an amber light when so many Thais think it's ok to drive through a red 4-5 seconds after it has changed is almost a breath of fresh air!

It was in Ubon Ratchathani on the Det Ubon road as it crosses the ring road. Today I was near it at another set of lights that started flashing green (no count down timer) as I approached so I stopped just before they started flashing yellow. Once bitten twice shy. I was only doing about 20kph but I expect the drivers behind me were rather puzzled. 

[chang1]

On 4/25/2019 at 4:26 PM, dotpoom said:

Where I come from (Ireland) it is an offence to drive through an Amber light. I never assumed it would be any different anywhere else?

If that was true drivers would be fined several times a week. 

Why have amber? As all you need is red and green.

Unless all lights have some way of telling you that they are about to change to amber, if you are too close to the line to stop safely you may cause a collision or be unable to stop no matter how hard you brake.

In the UK I have never heard of anyone being prosecuted for crossing a stop line when the lights are on amber but many are for crossing on red.

How do you judge if it is safe to stop? This is such a grey area that it would be almost impossible to make a charge stick. eg. "I thought there was a motorcycle close behind me". The police would have to prove you didn't think that, prove how long the amber light had been showing before crossing the stop line, prove how fast you were traveling, prove the distance was sufficient in the prevailing conditions, prove the lights were working correctly, prove the road surface was not slippery, prove lighting and visibility was adequate. prove the stopping distance of your vehicle (not the same as shown in the highway code) and of any following vehicles. Then add in a safety margin.

Of course in this case a lot of these are proved by the photos rather than an officers memory. 

 

[chang1]

On 4/25/2019 at 5:00 PM, tandor said:

..defend it.

It's only 500 Baht so not worth the hassle. This goes against the grain but I am a visitor in a foreign country so will add it to the list of good/bad points of choosing Thailand over another destination to spend our hard earned cash. 

As I see it, I could have stopped safely as the count down timer gave me ample warning. 

My real beef is that it is an automated fine with only 2 photos as evidence of what is basically a judgement call. If it showed me crossing the line on red it would be clear cut but as I said in my last post yellow is a different case entirely.

What if there was a diesel spill on the road (or I thought there was) and I judged it unsafe to stop?

This is not an offence that a camera should be used to send out fines for - red light yes, yellow light no.

[richard_smith237]

47 minutes ago, chang1 said:

On 4/25/2019 at 4:26 PM, dotpoom said:

Where I come from (Ireland) it is an offence to drive through an Amber light. I never assumed it would be any different anywhere else?

 

Misinterpretation which may seem like semantics... but here goes...

 

Its not an offence to drive through on an Amber light... It is an offence not to stop on Amber unless deemed not safe to do so (i.e. you are traveling too fast, but within the speed limit to stop before the stop line once the Amber light is illuminated).

 

I maybe mistaken, but am of the belief that this is the only explanation when dealing with the Amber Traffic light.

 

Im 'some' states in the UK (yes not Thailand, but it's been brought up) it is only illegal to enter a junction if the light is on red. The issue there is, if you see an Amber light you still need to stop as you only have a short distance / time before it turns red and you are taking a chance, hence the Amber light on which you 'should' stop, the law in these states handles this ever so slightly differently the the principle remains the same - stop on amber if you can.

Edited April 29, 2019 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

22 minutes ago, chang1 said:

It's only 500 Baht so not worth the hassle. This goes against the grain but I am a visitor in a foreign country so will add it to the list of good/bad points of choosing Thailand over another destination to spend our hard earned cash. 

As I see it, I could have stopped safely as the count down timer gave me ample warning. 

My real beef is that it is an automated fine with only 2 photos as evidence of what is basically a judgement call. If it showed me crossing the line on red it would be clear cut but as I said in my last post yellow is a different case entirely.

What if there was a diesel spill on the road (or I thought there was) and I judged it unsafe to stop?

This is not an offence that a camera should be used to send out fines for - red light yes, yellow light no.

 

Agreed - using photos alone there is no evidence that the Op broke the law. 

[chang1]

On 4/26/2019 at 3:10 PM, utalkin2me said:

It does not matter what amber means in the UK or here. All that matters is you got a ticket for it for a very paltry sum. You can usually negotiate these tickets onsite too, or even get out of many of them completely. It is so great. 

 

Whether you are right or wrong does not matter in the slightest. Whether tou figure out the Thai law does not matter in the slightest. 

 

Just think if these tickets as tax to drive in Thailand. Like adding .001 baht to every liter of gas you put in your vehicle. Just pay it up, be glad you do not have to deal with western style bureaucracy and ridiculously expensive points systems, and go on your merry way. The system is so good here and people won't realize it and I just can never understand that. 

There are 2 ways to take this post -

1 - What rubbish. This fine is to force me to drive safely and ensure I obey all road laws to help keep me and others safe. In a country with such poor driving standards this is a step in the right direction, even if I disagree with this particular use of cameras.

2 - Spot on - I come to Thailand to get away from the nanny state with all it's onerous fines and procedures. I want to be able to get away with braking the law now and then without having to worry about the consequences.

 

I'm inbetween these two but do take safety seriously, especially mine and my families.

 

Will this fine make me drive safer?

Look how far down the road I am when the lights changed to red. No other vehicles had even started to move. Who had I put in danger? 

Will I continue stopping when the lights are on green instead of yellow and annoying normal drivers? Probably only for the rest of this trip.

Is the fine a problem for me - paying it is proving more of a problem than the money so no big deal.

[chang1]

45 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Misinterpretation which may seem like semantics... but here goes...

 

Its not an offence to drive through on an Amber light... It is an offence not to stop on Amber unless deemed not safe to do so (i.e. you are traveling too fast, but within the speed limit to stop before the stop line once the Amber light is illuminated).

 

I maybe mistaken, but am of the belief that this is the only explanation when dealing with the Amber Traffic light.

 

Im 'some' states in the UK (yes not Thailand, but it's been brought up) it is only illegal to enter a junction if the light is on red. The issue there is, if you see an Amber light you still need to stop as you only have a short distance / time before it turns red and you are taking a chance, hence the Amber light on which you 'should' stop, the law in these states handles this ever so slightly differently the the principle remains the same - stop on amber if you can.

Not sure if you meant UK or USA but here is what the UK highway code says

 

AMBER means ‘Stop’ at the stop line. You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident

 

[chang1]

The word "might" leaves a lot of leeway.

Also interesting that they say accident instead of, the now preferred word, collision.

Edited April 29, 2019 by chang1

[tandor]

 

 

 

2

5 hours ago, chang1 said:

It's only 500 Baht so not worth the hassle. This goes against the grain but I am a visitor in a foreign country so will add it to the list of good/bad points of choosing Thailand over another destination to spend our hard earned cash. 

As I see it, I could have stopped safely as the count down timer gave me ample warning. 

My real beef is that it is an automated fine with only 2 photos as evidence of what is basically a judgement call. If it showed me crossing the line on red it would be clear cut but as I said in my last post yellow is a different case entirely.

What if there was a diesel spill on the road (or I thought there was) and I judged it unsafe to stop?

This is not an offence that a camera should be used to send out fines for - red light yes, yellow light no.

...your decision, but why let the matter go their way and a win for them financially..tell me what is going to be your reaction when demerit points are introduced?...if you feel strongly about the issue, as it appears your posts reveal, then you should go to Court and have you say regardless.

After all you have admitted guilt right here.

[As I see it, I could have stopped safely as the count down timer gave me ample warning.]

[wilcopops]

This has little to dO with driving itself, it is an example of how badly road safety principles are followed in Thailand....you'll find that many traffic lights are set up incorrectly and I inconsistently. The countdown if set to amber is particularly ambiguous as the principle on amber is STOP unless unsafe to do so. All other interpretations are incorrect, including those who set up the lights.

It would be interesting to have an explanation from a Thai road traffic engineer.

[chang1]

tandor - for some reason I can't quote you. 

You answered your question yourself - I was in the wrong.

The post you quoted clearly explained what I think is wrong and going to court won't change anything except take up my valuable time on this visit and probably end up with a guilty verdict anyway.

I started this thread mainly to highlight that cameras are being used to generate fines for crossing stop lines on yellow. As there are so many variables, how does a camera JUDGE if it is safe to stop or not? A very different situation to going through a red light which is black and white.

I am not saying the fine is wrong in my case but it certainly will not be correct everytime.

Have you ever stopped while the lights are on green because you know (countdown timers or flashing green) they are about to change to yellow (in free moving traffic)?

Yellow is the new red as the camera will not take a slippery road or many other dangers into account.

I am the first person I have heard of being prosecuted for crossing the stop line when the lights are on yellow any where in the world.

 

 

[chang1]

13 hours ago, wilcopops said:

the principle on amber is STOP unless unsafe to do so.

So who decides if it is unsafe or not?

If I stop and the lorry following me can't stop because of his inadequate brakes and rear ends me, should I then be fined as it obviously was unsafe to stop?

 

If I err on the side of caution and safely carried on through well before the lights changed to red, should I be fined?

 

These are the kind of split second decisions drivers have to make on the fly. Unlike someone taking their time to look at 2 photos. If they do even get looked at.

I am the driver so I make the decision about whether or not it is safe to stop. No-one else can make that decision at that moment.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by chang1

[wilcopops]

On 4/27/2019 at 9:25 PM, brokenbone said:

in the civilized world, you will not get fined for

running a yellow light, period

This premise is both subjective and false so it follows that the rest of your argument is invalid.

[gmac]

10 hours ago, chang1 said:

So who decides if it is unsafe or not?

If I stop and the lorry following me can't stop because of his inadequate brakes and rear ends me, should I then be fined as it obviously was unsafe to stop?

 

If I err on the side of caution and safely carried on through well before the lights changed to red, should I be fined?

 

These are the kind of split second decisions drivers have to make on the fly. Unlike someone taking their time to look at 2 photos. If they do even get looked at.

I am the driver so I make the decision about whether or not it is safe to stop. No-one else can make that decision at that moment.

 

 

Therein lies the problem, common-sense is required to make the decision on the fly, something particularly lacking in Thailand anyway, and something that is not used by cameras which only see the 'offence' totally out of the context in which it occurred.

[Damrongsak]

In the USA today (Virginia), I went through 3 yellow lights, along with the cars on either side of me.  In my area, yellow means look around for traffic and cops and get the heck through the intersection.  Drivers here are so stupid, slow and laid back that sometimes 3 or 4 cars will get through a light when it turns green and the following 4 or 5 cars will run the red light, especially a turn lane.  Go to New York or New Jersey, it's a different ball game.  So I think a lot of it boils down to local conditions and driving habits (culture).

[chang1]

2 minutes ago, Damrongsak said:

In the USA today (Virginia), I went through 3 yellow lights, along with the cars on either side of me.  In my area, yellow means look around for traffic and cops and get the heck through the intersection.  Drivers here are so stupid, slow and laid back that sometimes 3 or 4 cars will get through a light when it turns green and the following 4 or 5 cars will run the red light, especially a turn lane.  Go to New York or New Jersey, it's a different ball game.  So I think a lot of it boils down to local conditions and driving habits (culture).

This is why stopping on green to avoid running a yellow light is dangerous here. Other drivers will not expect it as it is so against the Thai driving culture or most other driving culture's for that matter. But this is what these fines force you to do.

[chang1]

10 hours ago, wilcopops said:

On 4/27/2019 at 9:25 PM, brokenbone said:

in the civilized world, you will not get fined for

running a yellow light, period

This premise is both subjective and false so it follows that the rest of your argument is invalid

https://samotor.raa.com.au/can-i-be-fined-for-running-a-yellow-light/

Looks like this could be a new revenue raiser. Note - it says cameras will not be used to enforce the law.

Maybe the yellow light rules need changing to how they are actually used in the real world. 

Yellow means the lights are about to change to red. You can carry on providing the front of your vehicle crosses the stop line before the lights change otherwise you must stop. 

This would not change safety at all as it is what we all do already and are used to. It also removes the chance of being fined because the police THINK it was safe to stop and you did not think it was safe.

[chang1]

On 4/25/2019 at 2:21 PM, VocalNeal said:

In The UK there used to be a line before the light. If you were over the line when it changed to amber OK

 

DON'T BE AN AMBER GAMBLER.

 

This is not a problem here as there is no amber when changing from red to green.

Note - in the UK amber comes on at the same time as red just before changing to green. So you are not "an amber gambler" you are running a red light. This is the cause of the crash in the video not going through the amber before red. In reality lights are timed with a bit more of a safety gap. The one light will be red before the red+amber shows. 

In my 2 photos you can see I had totally cleared the junction before any other lanes had started to move. This is how lights should be set up.

[wilcopops]

Sorry the Thai Highway Code is translated as follows

"the driver shall prepare to stop the vehicle behind the stop line. If the driver has passed the stop line when the traffic light turns yellow, he may go through."

so it depends where the OP was as interpreted by a competent police officer.

[wilcopops]

4 hours ago, chang1 said:

This is why stopping on green to avoid running a yellow light is dangerous here. Other drivers will not expect it as it is so against the Thai driving culture or most other driving culture's for that matter. But this is what these fines force you to do.

Fines are imposed AFTER an offense is committed.

So you are let with the idea of a fine being a deterrent......this largely depends not on the fine itself but the likelihood of it being enforced.

 

A proactive method would be as in the "don't be an amber gambler" approach - e.g. public information - Thailand patently fails in this aspect.

A countdown on Amber is actually quite dangerous as it ENCOURAGES drivers to continue or gives them the impression that they can, which is contrary to the Highway Code.

[stevenl]

On 5/1/2019 at 7:49 AM, chang1 said:

This is why stopping on green to avoid running a yellow light is dangerous here. Other drivers will not expect it as it is so against the Thai driving culture or most other driving culture's for that matter. But this is what these fines force you to do.

Yes, stopping at green is unexpected, and on top of that dangerous as well. And even stronger, it is not required.

[wilcopops]

The driving environment in Thailand is so inconsistent that decisions like this by a "competent" police officer must be open to question.....for instance at many junctions the lines on the road are either missing for so poorly maintained, they are invisible. Even with a well trained officer, the state of Thai road signage is so haphazard or even amateurish that decisions like the OP experienced are almost impossible to come to with any certainty

[chang1]

On 5/1/2019 at 12:07 PM, wilcopops said:

Sorry the Thai Highway Code is translated as follows

"the driver shall prepare to stop the vehicle behind the stop line. If the driver has passed the stop line when the traffic light turns yellow, he may go through."

so it depends where the OP was as interpreted by a competent police officer.

"so it depends where the OP was as interpreted by a competent police officer." or a camera with set programming.

[chang1]

22 hours ago, stevenl said:

Yes, stopping at green is unexpected, and on top of that dangerous as well. And even stronger, it is not required.

So you are saying it is OK to go through on yellow even if there is a count down timer to show you before it has changed? Then why was I fined?

[chang1]

50 minutes ago, wilcopops said:

The driving environment in Thailand is so inconsistent that decisions like this by a "competent" police officer must be open to question.....for instance at many junctions the lines on the road are either missing for so poorly maintained, they are invisible. Even with a well trained officer, the state of Thai road signage is so haphazard or even amateurish that decisions like the OP experienced are almost impossible to come to with any certainty

Not really an excuse for me as this junction is well laid out but certainly not the case with most junctions.

Edited May 3, 2019 by chang1

[chang1]

44 minutes ago, chang1 said:

23 hours ago, stevenl said:

Yes, stopping at green is unexpected, and on top of that dangerous as well. And even stronger, it is not required.

So you are saying it is OK to go through on yellow even if there is a count down timer to show you before it has changed? Then why was I fined?

 

If you know that the lights are about to change to yellow before you cross the stop line and you carry on after they have changed, you are breaking the law because you could have stopped safely.

I didn't slow down before the yellow light (even though I could see it was about to change)  and could not have stopped safely before the stop line at that (legal) speed.

So slowing or even stopping while still on green is required if you have a way of knowing the lights are about to change to yellow.

Totally counter intuitive and dangerous.

Edited May 3, 2019 by chang1

[stevenl]

3 hours ago, chang1 said:

So you are saying it is OK to go through on yellow even if there is a count down timer to show you before it has changed? Then why was I fined?

Huh? Where did I say that? If green you go, if yellow you stop. If turning from green to amber (or yellow) it depends on speed and positioning.

Your explanation above this post is not correct, it is not the timer that determines if you could have stopped safely, but your speed and position. Based on the photo, if driving at legal speed, you could have and should have stopped.

Edited May 3, 2019 by stevenl

[tifino]

On 5/2/2019 at 11:44 AM, stevenl said:

Yes, stopping at green is unexpected, and on top of that dangerous as well. And even stronger, it is not required.

trouble with this is that a primary obligation is to avoid an accident if possible... and if it means stopping at your green becaiuse some other somchai has 'beaten'; the lights - there really isn't any safer option

[chang1]

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

If turning from green to amber (or yellow) it depends on speed and positioning.

It now also depends on how a camera is set up. What about the different stopping distances of different vehicles and loads? How slippery is the road surface?

How hard are you expected to brake to stop? If nothing is behind do you brake like in an emergency stop or are you allowed to keep going? 

You think I could have stopped, I don't, without risking a skid. Look how far I travelled compared to the person walking in the 2 photos. I can't remember exactly how fast I was going but on the form it said "speed - legal" so I presume speed was checked as well but maybe the same form is used for speeding.

There are too many variables to use cameras for this offence.

Next time you are driving, through a city, try stopping at every amber light if you have not crossed the stop line. You will soon see it can be very uncomfortable with lots of very heavy braking and remember to make sure no-one is behind you. This is not how anyone drives.