Hi All

Went to Chiang Mai immigration today to renew my one year extension of stay submitted all the necessary docs which included Thai letter from the Bank and statements to show a monthly deposit of 65000 Bht only to be told the 65000 bht income has to be a pension income and supported by a letter/s from pension provider to confirm the amount/s

The immigration officer presented me with a list showing the requirements (See Attachment) that seemed to indicate the 65000Bht had to be pension income rather than what i figured to be as shown in the other document (See attachment again) just a income regardless where it come from.

 

My question/s is 

A is this correct now

B my extention of stay runs out on May 10th (so i will have to exit Thailand) so what is the best option/s to get 30 days 90 days or longer? Lao Vietnam, Savannakhet border or any other border come to that.

I have a trip/Flight booked for a holiday back to the UK on 9th July so would really like to stay here until that date.

 

I have a more than 65000 bht income and don't have 800000 bht to hand to deposit for ever in a Thai bank. and i am not married to a Thai

Advice and suggestions would be most welcome. 

 

what a day lol

Regards

TB

Ps sorry if the attachment may be a little big i will try to edit it if and when i submit this, as i cant find a preview button before submission of post

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 20197 yr by tigerbalm
to reduce size of image

This might be interesting to watch. I have an official pension from my work with Texas state government which is part of the 65000+ baht I transfer in every month. I also have Social Security which makes up the rest of what I transfer in. Technically speaking, Social Security is not a pension. I'll be curious to see how tightly they interpret the term "pension."

 

David

 

Historically, the use of the EN term "pension" in Thai Immigration docs has been a translation of the original Thai language that supposedly means more general sources of income.

 

However, there seem to be some Immigration offices that at times interpret the term literally, which isn't the way it's mostly been treated in the past.....

 

What a PITA....

 

What type of income sources make up your 65K?  And is it possible for you to get any confirming letters from those sources?

 

For example, if you were doing a monthly account from your retirement account back home, would CM Immigration accept a monthly account statement from your retirement account showing confirmation of the transfer?

 

Or they only want pension letters?  And what about Social Security payments?

 

Edited April 25, 20197 yr by TallGuyJohninBKK

#3 (left document) says "proven income"

 

#1 on the right says "showing documents and statement from bank in Thailand to show transfers from abroad..."

 

 

Not seeing any requirement for documentation detailing the source of the funds? "Pension" is loosely used here as "retirement income", or even just "income". Asking for letters from the "pension provider" is going down a strange hole. What will these letters look like? How will they be authenticated? U.S. SSA will not generate a "letter", although they do issue both a 1099-SSA and a new year's notification of any increase, and expected monthly benefit. Wonder which one of those would qualify?

 

tigerbalm: You had some record of monthly qualifying transfers? How many months? All above 65,000? All correctly coded as foreign inbound transfers? WHich bank? What did the bank document(s) look like?

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 20197 yr by mtls2005

The center column of the police order states this. Which is an example of what can be used.

 

 

According to that they cannot legally reject your application for not having proof of a pension.

59 minutes ago, tigerbalm said:

My question/s is 

A is this correct now

B my extention of stay runs out on May 10th (so i will have to exit Thailand) so what is the best option/s to get 30 days 90 days or longer? Lao Vietnam, Savannakhet border or any other border come to that.

I have a trip/Flight booked for a holiday back to the UK on 9th July so would really like to stay here until that date.

A. Individual Immigration Offices can make up their own rules. A few Offices are choosing to reserve the monthly 65k method for only those with pensions.  Your monthly 65k extension will probably be accepted if you go through a visa agent.

B. Options
1. Go to a visa agent and most likely receive the extension.  This agent was recommended by another poster: 
http://www.chiangmaivisaservice.com/services/retirement-visa/

 

2a. Leave Thailand and get a 60 day tourist visa. Since your flight to the UK is right at the end of the 60 days, get a 30 day extension towards the end of the 60 days to guarantee you don't overstay, even though that is unlikely to happen.  Vientiane requires an online appointment and it may be too late to book at this point.  Savannakhet requires that you show the equivalent of 20k baht in a bank account (does not have to be a Thai bank) for a tourist visa.  Others can tell you about other Embassies and Consulates.

 

2b. Obtain a Non-Immigrant OA visa when back in the UK (assuming you are a UK citizen). The 1 year OA visa can be stretched to almost two years if timed right by exiting and reentering Thailand shortly before the 1 year expiration date.  If you choose to travel outside of Thailand during the second year of the OA visa, obtain a reentry permit before leaving Thailand. 

40 minutes ago, Genericnic said:

This might be interesting to watch. I have an official pension from my work with Texas state government which is part of the 65000+ baht I transfer in every month. I also have Social Security which makes up the rest of what I transfer in. Technically speaking, Social Security is not a pension. I'll be curious to see how tightly they interpret the term "pension."

 

David

 

Social security benefits will be seen as pension income, here or anywhere. 

15 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

#3 (left document) says "proven income"

 

#1 on the right says "showing documents and statement from bank in Thailand to show transfers from abroad..."

 

 

Not seeing any requirement for documentation detailing the source of the funds? "Pension" is loosely used here as "retirement income", or even just "income". Asking for letters from the "pension provider" is going down a strange hole. What will these letters look like? How will they be authenticated? U.S. SSA will not generate a "letter", although they do issue both a 1099-SSA and a new year's notification of any increase, and expected monthly benefit. Wonder which one of those would qualify?

 

tigerbalm: You had some record of monthly qualifying transfers? How many months? All above 65,000? All correctly coded as foreign inbound transfers? WHich bank? What did the bank document(s) look like?

 

 

 

Ok it was Bangkok Bank.

'Letter from the bank (Immigration the day before gave me a example letter from a previous applicant with name and account number scrubbed out) so i used that and went to My local Branch they were well aware what i needed as they were doing about 10-15 a month according to the Lady at the Bank.

I took all my Transfer wise statements that the Immigration guy married up with the Bank statement entries then added up the entries for each month to confirm the totals for each month cane to 65k or more.

Statements from the 1st January 2019 to middle of April so 4 months in all showing 65k income.

Regards

TB

If a local office especially a major one like CM says it's pension only, then they can probably get away with applying that rule even if it is contrary to national guidance. But again, CM and any office will definitely accept U.S. social security old age benefits as a pension. Keep in mind though the average U.S. social security check is well under 65K per month. 

16 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The center column of the police order states this. Which is an example of what can be used.

 

 

According to that they cannot legally reject your application for not having proof of a pension.

Hi

Are you saying the No 3. is indicating pension or interest or dividends are an example of income that can be used, as opposed to just pension.

The way they have worded this particular example is a little bit open to different interpretations.

Personally i like the other one where to qualify you need a monthly income deposited in to a Thai bank of 65k a month after all a income is a income where ever it comes from (Legally)

As far as they cannot legally reject it goes, and i am sure you are quite correct, but can you imagine if i contested it, saving face and conceding wrong doings or mistakes are not part of Thai culture.

the ironic thing is i am pretty certain if i went to another immigration office i would be walking out with a new Extension.

 

Regards

TB

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

If a local office especially a major one like CM says it's pension only, then they can probably get away with applying that rule even if it is contrary to national guidance. But again, CM and any office will definitely accept U.S. social security old age benefits as a pension. Keep in mind though the average U.S. social security check is well under 65K per month. 

Hi
I am sure you are correct, is there any one you know who has been successful in gaining a extension of stay based on benefits being accepted as pension i only ask because a pension is some thing that belongs to you and can not be taken away (Unless recession and the crash of financial investments happen) the government don't give you it it is yours paid for by your self.

Benefits depending on your financial income can be given but equally taken away, you might be given housing benefits if you are low income but if you suddenly won the lottery i doubt you could still continue to claim them. 

I should mention i am from the Uk so our circumstances will be a little different, but what i can say is i never ever come across any one on Benefits (Hand outs) securing a car loan or a mortgage from a Bank

Regards

TB

Consistent inconsistency already,and early days.

54 minutes ago, SEtonal said:

A. Individual Immigration Offices can make up their own rules. A few Offices are choosing to reserve the monthly 65k method for only those with pensions.  Your monthly 65k extension will probably be accepted if you go through a visa agent.

B. Options
1. Go to a visa agent and most likely receive the extension.  This agent was recommended by another poster: 
http://www.chiangmaivisaservice.com/services/retirement-visa/

 

2a. Leave Thailand and get a 60 day tourist visa. Since your flight to the UK is right at the end of the 60 days, get a 30 day extension towards the end of the 60 days to guarantee you don't overstay, even though that is unlikely to happen.  Vientiane requires an online appointment and it may be too late to book at this point.  Savannakhet requires that you show the equivalent of 20k baht in a bank account (does not have to be a Thai bank) for a tourist visa.  Others can tell you about other Embassies and Consulates.

 

2b. Obtain a Non-Immigrant OA visa when back in the UK (assuming you are a UK citizen). The 1 year OA visa can be stretched to almost two years if timed right by exiting and reentering Thailand shortly before the 1 year expiration date.  If you choose to travel outside of Thailand during the second year of the OA visa, obtain a reentry permit before leaving Thailand. 

Hi

Thanks for the link. bookmarked it

The visa agent seems like a good option, i will send them a message and outline the problem, and see if they think it is worth while them trying on my behalf the other options you have outlined are very useful and i might have to go down one of those avenues, but at the moment if it means replacing my old comfy slippers to don a pair of trainers to go out of the country, i think i will just keep my slippers on and take the easy route of trying the Visa agent, closer to the fire side so to speak LOL

 

Regards

TB

1 hour ago, tigerbalm said:

Statements from the 1st January 2019 to middle of April so 4 months in all showing 65k income.

Ah. That probably explains why your application was refused, you only did 4 monthly transfers, not 12.  The individual Immigration Offices were asked to show leniency this year but I have not seen one report where Chiang Mai IO has shown any leniency.

 

CM IO refused to accept a valid US Consulate Income Affidavit from the guy in the link.  Luckily, he had made 12 monthly transfers into a Thai bank, so he just had to scramble and get documentation from his bank and he was able to get his extension. 

 

 
 

1 hour ago, tigerbalm said:

the ironic thing is i am pretty certain if i went to another immigration office i would be walking out with a new Extension.

 

Chaeng Wattana in Bangkok showed leniency and issued a retirement extension with 3 monthly transfers.

 

  

10 minutes ago, SEtonal said:

Ah. That probably explains why your application was refused, you only did 4 monthly transfers, not 12.  The individual Immigration Offices were asked to show leniency this year but I have not seen one report where Chiang Mai IO has shown any leniency.

 

CM IO refused to accept a valid US Consulate Income Affidavit from the guy in the link.  Luckily, he had made 12 monthly transfers into a Thai bank, so he just had to scramble and get documentation from his bank and he was able to get his extension. 

 

 
 

There was no mention of the amount of deposits, it was put to me that the deposits had to be pension income.

Regards

TB 

 

Does the Bangkok Bank statement you showed immigration show the monthly Transferwise transfers as foreign transfers or domestic?

18 minutes ago, SEtonal said:

Chaeng Wattana in Bangkok showed leniency and issued a retirement extension with 3 monthly transfers.

 

  

Hi

I thought that might be the case, My observations are that the new rule came out in Jan so OK can show the deposits from Jan but next time one applies a year from now it has to be 12.

Just wondering how some one can show 12 months of statements to get a extension of stay and has only been in Thailand 3, 4, or 6, months.

There is probably a good answer but i am unable to think of it .

Regards

TB

1 minute ago, sfokevin said:

Does the Bangkok Bank statement you showed immigration show the monthly Transferwise transfers as foreign transfers or domestic?

yes FTT on the BKK bank statements, and i supplied the transfer wise statements for each deposit showing the date amount and the bank (BKK) it was being transferred to. he went thru them one by one checking the Transactions against the BKK Bank statements, then adding up the monthly totals to confirm it met the 65k criteria

Regards

TB

So the IO reviewed the four months of 65k foreign transfers and found them in order... Then did he balk at there not being a full 12 months or did he want you to prove that the 4 months came from a pension?...

Edited April 25, 20197 yr by sfokevin

1 hour ago, SEtonal said:

Ah. That probably explains why your application was refused, you only did 4 monthly transfers, not 12.  The individual Immigration Offices were asked to show leniency this year but I have not seen one report where Chiang Mai IO has shown any leniency.

 

But that's not the reason that tigerbalm seems to have been given? Rather, he indicates that he needs to prove his monthly qualifying transfers come from a "pension".

 

 

1 hour ago, tigerbalm said:

yes FTT on the BKK bank statements, and i supplied the transfer wise statements for each deposit showing the date amount and the bank (BKK) it was being transferred to. he went thru them one by one checking the Transactions against the BKK Bank statements, then adding up the monthly totals to confirm it met the 65k criteria

Regards

TB

 

Seems strange that the IO went through this process only to then ask for supporting documentation re: a qualifying pension as the source of your qualifying foreign transfers?

 

I'm not sure what benefit there was to providing Transferwise statements, those are totally unnecessary and probably caused confusion? The Bangkok Bank letter & statement would be sufficient.

 

I'm thinking that maybe something else influenced your experience/situation, but I'm hard-pressed to figure out what it might be.

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

Seems strange that the IO went through this process only to then ask for supporting documentation re: a qualifying pension as the source of your qualifying foreign transfers?

If the IO could have found something in the first step, he would have sent the OP packing for that.  When the OP returned the 2nd time, then out comes the next reason.  Sending people out for "one other" thing again and again is one way they try to wear you down - get you to give up and "hire" their buddy to handle it.

 

Quote

I'm not sure what benefit there was to providing Transferwise statements, those are totally unnecessary and probably caused confusion? The Bangkok Bank letter & statement would be sufficient.

Anything you give them will be used against you, if possible.  Best to only provide the minimum, then specific extras when/if asked for.

 

Quote

I'm thinking that maybe something else influenced your experience/situation, but I'm hard-pressed to figure out what it might be.

4 hours ago, SEtonal said:

 ...  I have not seen one report where Chiang Mai IO has shown any leniency.

With their famous "Use an Agent or spend all night in the parking lot" scheme shut down, I am sure they are scrambling to use every trick in the book to block legit extensions, and force agent-use.  One can assume the IOs are paying off cars and homes of a value/cost which required the income-levels from their previous agent-schemes.

Edited April 25, 20197 yr by JackThompson

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

If a local office especially a major one like CM says it's pension only, then they can probably get away with applying that rule even if it is contrary to national guidance. But again, CM and any office will definitely accept U.S. social security old age benefits as a pension. Keep in mind though the average U.S. social security check is well under 65K per month. 

Exactly.  Exclude the other sources of income, and most of those with SS can forget qualifying by income here. 

 

I ran into this same "must be a state-pension" issue up here in the boonies for a marriage-based extension - last year - before the new rules were even announced.  It will be many years before I can qualify for that.

Edited April 25, 20197 yr by JackThompson

7 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Exactly.  Exclude the other sources of income, and most of those with SS can forget qualifying by income here. 

 

I ran into this same "must be a state-pension" issue up here in the boonies for a marriage-based extension - last year - before the new rules were even announced.  It will be many years before I can qualify for that.

You would have to know how much the person from the US makes for pension SS or whatever -  I make enough I can qualify and all the US expats I know can qualify. 

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

If a local office especially a major one like CM says it's pension only, then they can probably get away with applying that rule even if it is contrary to national guidance. But again, CM and any office will definitely accept U.S. social security old age benefits as a pension. Keep in mind though the average U.S. social security check is well under 65K per month. 

The average person in the US would be unlikely to move to Thailand.  You'd need to know how much the average expat living in Thailand makes in SS. 

The average person in the US would be unlikely to move to Thailand.  You'd need to know how much the average expat living in Thailand makes in SS. 

So you're suggesting what? That most US retired expats in Thailand have a pension over 65k monthly? Based on what? Guessing? I told you a FACT. The average US social security check is much less. Too bad that the combo method has been trashed as that has been the answer for that for those using income under 65k.

 

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Exactly.  Exclude the other sources of income, and most of those with SS can forget qualifying by income here. 
 
I ran into this same "must be a state-pension" issue up here in the boonies for a marriage-based extension - last year - before the new rules were even announced.  It will be many years before I can qualify for that.

But if the combo method is preserved then no problem for most. But in actual practice the new rules combo method is very problematical.

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8 hours ago, tigerbalm said:

Hi All

Went to Chiang Mai immigration today to renew my one year extension of stay submitted all the necessary docs which included Thai letter from the Bank and statements to show a monthly deposit of 65000 Bht only to be told the 65000 bht income has to be a pension income and supported by a letter/s from pension provider to confirm the amount/s

As Ubon Joe has illustrated, the officer is wrong although the rules in their English version are somewhat ambiguous - one column states pension, the other says 'such as'. No doubt the Thai version is equally as ambiguous. Your problem lies in showing the I.O. where he is wrong.  I'd take a lawyer along.

 

Given that they allow retirment visas and extensions based on retirement to those over 50 - they must surely know that people don't get their pensions at 50?  In the UK, the state pension is paid out at 65 and rising and the earliest you can draw down a private pension is at age 55.

 

I don't really think the author of the new rules gave a damn about where the money came from - just as long as it is shown to enter a Thai bank account from overseas. The ambiguity is probably a mistake - but its a mistake that's going to cause a lot of people problems unless they sort it.

Will be interesting to see what they do with people who are below pension age with no pension who live here by renting out property etc.