Water Only Fasting...Should you do it / How should you do it.

[Destiny1990]

3 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

With all due respect, I really think you're attributing way too much importance on a diet's possible effect on T.  As I suggested before, you should search genuine science-based research (not simply conduct a general google search) for an answer to the relationship between nutrition and T.

 

Just to settle your mind on this, I took a few minutes this morning and did that for you.  What I found is, yes there appears to be a possible relationship, but an indirect and unclear one.

 

And what I found was basically what I've already suggested, and that is that carbs indirectly have a negative effect on T (according to the study I will link).  The study explores very complex metabolic relationships and has many significant limitations but my take-away from it is that a diet's effect on T is indirect, not direct in the following way.  Excessive carbs lead to increased insulin levels which in turn leads to obesity.  It is the OBESITY that can possibly result in lowered T, not the diet itself.

 

So to put it even more simply,  ANY diet that results in obesity may indirectly also lead to to lowered T, and any diet that reduces obesity may be able to indirectly raise T.  IMO, carb-restricted (keto) diets are the best way to deal with obesity, so such a diet is the most effective way to protect T.

 

If you are concerned about low T, see a doctor about doing TRT.  That's the simplest and most direct solution to protecting or optimizes T levels, but IMO, the last thing you would want to do is avoid keto in the meantime in light of carbs indirect effect on T.

 

I mean, controlling T and controlling obesity should be two different clearly defined goals; don't look for a single solution that will apply to both since neither will be optimal if you do.

  

Here's the link to the study, Testosterone-Associated Dietary Pattern Predicts Low Testosterone Levels and Hypogonadism

 

Warning:  You really need to read this report carefully and not just glance over it and jump to unfounded conclusions.

 

Interesting information indeed kinda hard to understand it but i copied this part: 

 

The study results suggest that individuals who prefer Western-style food (bread and pastries, dairy products, and desserts), eat out, and eat fewer homemade foods, noodles, and dark green vegetables are more likely to have an unhealthy body composition (e.g., increased visceral fat and decreased skeletal muscle mass) and low serum total T levels, and are likely to develop Hypogonadism.

 

So in that long report they keep mentioning several times that dairy products are bad for T and that noodles are good for T ?that doesn’t make much sense to me. Anyway lets do this i will loose 10 kilos in 3 months time so from 100 kg i will become 90 kg in August. Just by lowering my carbs and limiting my eating window 16:8 ( you know my diet already) then i will do another T level measurement and they will be atleast 15% lower then my T levels are now. I am totally convinced about it and i found not a single proof where it says a weight-loss diet will not lower your T levels.

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, Destiny1990 said:

Interesting information indeed kinda hard to understand it but i copied this part: 

 

The study results suggest that individuals who prefer Western-style food (bread and pastries, dairy products, and desserts), eat out, and eat fewer homemade foods, noodles, and dark green vegetables are more likely to have an unhealthy body composition (e.g., increased visceral fat and decreased skeletal muscle mass) and low serum total T levels, and are likely to develop Hypogonadism.

 

So in that long report they keep mentioning several times that dairy products are bad for T and that noodles are good for T ?that doesn’t make much sense to me. Anyway lets do this i will loose 10 kilos in 3 months time so from 100 kg i will become 90 kg in August. Just by lowering my carbs and limiting my eating window 16:8 ( you know my diet already) then i will do another T level measurement and they will be atleast 15% lower then my T levels are now. I am totally convinced about it and i found not a single proof where it says a weight-loss diet will not lower your T levels.

It sounds good that you seem to be considering a low-carb diet to be the priority.  Yes, check your T again after several months on that diet.  If it is low and you think you will feel better with a higher level, get injections.  That's the quickest way to find out if raised T will improve the quality of life for you.

 

Even with injections, it can take several months to "feel" any difference, so anything that is less effective like fine tuning your diet will take far longer to find out if it is having any effect at raising the number.  Injections will raise the numbers reliably in weeks, and within months you will either feel a difference, or you will not.

 

Raising your T level is no "magic bullet".  The one thing that it does do reliably, as Robblok said, is that it does help you maintain lean body mass as you age, and it's easier to add muscle mass if that is your goal, but other than that, I think a lot of people way over-hype it.   

 

You should know that for many guys, raised T ends up having no effect on how they "feel".  It is a very subjective thing.  The difference in how you feel is really the gauge on whether it's doing something positive for you; not the serum level of T in your system.  If you don't feel a difference, what's the point?

 

You will feel a profound difference in how you feel however, if you cut carbs and start to shed excess body fat, and you will feel it very quickly too.  All I can really say after experiencing TRT AND a modified (lower cab) diet is if I could only choose one or the other to improve the quality of my life,I would not hesitate to keeping a handle on carbs.

 

My advise; don't over-think all of this, just avoid processed sugar completely,  get your carbs down low enough to avoid unhealthy insulin levels while maintaining a healthy macro ratio (protein, fats, carbs), and everything else will take care of itself.  It's really not rocket-science ????

 

[myjawe]

11 pages... too many...

 

Can someone say it in few sentences ?

 

Is it good to fast or not ?

 

Thanks.

 

 

[robblok]

14 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

It sounds good that you seem to be considering a low-carb diet to be the priority.  Yes, check your T again after several months on that diet.  If it is low and you think you will feel better with a higher level, get injections.  That's the quickest way to find out if raised T will improve the quality of life for you.

 

Even with injections, it can take several months to "feel" any difference, so anything that is less effective like fine tuning your diet will take far longer to find out if it is having any effect at raising the number.  Injections will raise the numbers reliably in weeks, and within months you will either feel a difference, or you will not.

 

Raising your T level is no "magic bullet".  The one thing that it does do reliably, as Robblok said, is that it does help you maintain lean body mass as you age, and it's easier to add muscle mass if that is your goal, but other than that, I think a lot of people way over-hype it.   

 

You should know that for many guys, raised T ends up having no effect on how they "feel".  It is a very subjective thing.  The difference in how you feel is really the gauge on whether it's doing something positive for you; not the serum level of T in your system.  If you don't feel a difference, what's the point?

 

You will feel a profound difference in how you feel however, if you cut carbs and start to shed excess body fat, and you will feel it very quickly too.  All I can really say after experiencing TRT AND a modified (lower cab) diet is if I could only choose one or the other to improve the quality of my life,I would not hesitate to keeping a handle on carbs.

 

My advise; don't over-think all of this, just avoid processed sugar completely,  get your carbs down low enough to avoid unhealthy insulin levels while maintaining a healthy macro ratio (protein, fats, carbs), and everything else will take care of itself.  It's really not rocket-science ????

 

Testostorone by itself certainly is not going to help you lose weight a diet will do that better, but extra T from injections will make sure that what you lose is fat and not muscle. Because everyone always talks about losing weight while in reality its about losing fat.

 

I rather lose 5 kg of fat then 10 kg of weight where 6 of it is muscle.

 

As for feeling different from injecting T.. more energy perhaps in the gym it helps. But not as much as a real bodybuilding cycle of T. I have done both so I can compare. 

 

It helps certainly during a diet but it takes time to help. Partly because of the fact that it takes several weeks to reach the desired level of T. 

 

Bottom line cleaning up your diet is number one. As for dairy I eat a lot of it if protein powders count ???? otherwise not so much.

 

Yesterday after a workout that totally destroyed me I went all devil on my diet and took 250 ml of no flavor low fat yoghurt with 1 scoop of cassein and some musli. It was the best ever I was in heaven and my body loved it too. When I was done training it was like as if i was living in a fog, after that meal (cheat meal id say) i felt a lot better. Today I feel like a bus has ran over me.

 

I should really learn to control myself better and use lower weights.

[robblok]

16 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

Interesting information indeed kinda hard to understand it but i copied this part: 

 

The study results suggest that individuals who prefer Western-style food (bread and pastries, dairy products, and desserts), eat out, and eat fewer homemade foods, noodles, and dark green vegetables are more likely to have an unhealthy body composition (e.g., increased visceral fat and decreased skeletal muscle mass) and low serum total T levels, and are likely to develop Hypogonadism.

 

So in that long report they keep mentioning several times that dairy products are bad for T and that noodles are good for T ?that doesn’t make much sense to me. Anyway lets do this i will loose 10 kilos in 3 months time so from 100 kg i will become 90 kg in August. Just by lowering my carbs and limiting my eating window 16:8 ( you know my diet already) then i will do another T level measurement and they will be atleast 15% lower then my T levels are now. I am totally convinced about it and i found not a single proof where it says a weight-loss diet will not lower your T levels.

Then just try to do some weight lifting (if you are not already) with your diet. It will serve a great purpose in making sure your 10 KG are fat not muscle. I know I am a weight lifter but it has been proven its the most effective way to keep on muscle while dieting and to make sure you lose fat not muscle.

 

T injections im sure you thought about them are an option too. 

 

But the low T won't really affect your diet as much as you think (might have other problems). But for diet its all about how much you eat and what you eat. 

 

I like that you are a realist and take 3 months for it. Don't forget you need to lose more then 10kg if you go low carb as the first losses are water. 

[monkeycu]

On 5/8/2019 at 9:35 AM, meinphuket said:

To all those who think they know it all;  water fasting is about fasting on food, Not water.

 

I just finished a 7 week fast, and I was by no means overweight, but am now rail thin. Whether good or not I don't know, but it was easy.

My only question is WHY ????

[WaveHunter]

13 hours ago, myjawe said:

11 pages... too many...

 

Can someone say it in few sentences ?

 

Is it good to fast or not ?

 

Thanks.

 

 

In a word, yes.  Is that simple enough for you?  

 

This thread was not intended to provide simple, pat answers!  It was intended as a forum for intelligent people to explore, discuss, and intelligently debate a controversial and complex subject, using science-based facts to do it, not unfounded personal opinions, and troll-like behavior that seems so prevalent in forums like this.

 

if you want simple, pat answers that really amount to nothing more than biased mis-information or half-truths, get your information from YouTube health gurus, or info-tainment sources like Oprah, or Dr. Oz.

 

[JungleBiker]

On 5/12/2019 at 2:19 AM, WaveHunter said:

Hi JB,

I think the real key to a strong nutritional strategy is NOT to follow any prescribed mainstream diet to the letter, and instead customize a diet that is right specifically for you.  Everybody is unique and "one size does not fit all". 

 

Above all, no one should do weight loss diets.  If a person feels the need to "diet to lose weight", there is a bigger underlying problem that needs to be addressed and that is poor metabolic health.  A short term weight loss diet is like putting a band-aid on an infected would!  If you have a healthy long-term nutritional strategy, there should never be a need to "go on a weight-loss diet"    

 

Your concerns about lack of protein on a plant-based diet are unfounded; you need to do more research.  Getting enough protein as a Vegan is actually quite easy and there is no need for supplementation at all.  Of all the nutritional strategies I've tried, plant-based seemed the most complete.  The only thing that's lacking in a Vegan diet is really just Vitamin B-12.  Most serious Vegans I know (and I know a lot of them from living in Chinag Mai for a year LOL) simply get B-12 by self-injection.  It's cheap and not as scary as it sounds. 

 

Eating a plant-based diet is IMO an excellent way to eat.  My only issue with Vegan was it just felt too restrictive to me, and I felt I was missing something by not having animal product in my diet (plus, I LOVE steak LOL).  So, I incorporated some Paleo.  Now I think of myself as "Pagan".

 

Even though I think of myself as a Pagan, I now also embrace the concept of being keto-adapted (yes, Paleo, Vegan and Keto can work together).  I think it is important (for me), not only for health reasons, but for cycling performance reasons as well. 

 

FYI, I am a VERY cautious person by nature.  If there was any reason that I felt keto was dangerous, I wouldn't be doing it.  I feel confident of that it is safe because I paid my dues and researched the subject well. 

 

You need to do the same thing because everybody is unique; what works for me, may not work for you.  What is right for me, may be wrong for you.  One size does not fit all, but I can say confidently that if you are in reasonably good health, a ketogenic diet is not unsafe.  My best advice is to find a doctor who is truly knowledgable about nutrition (which is no easy task these days), and seek his/her advice after having some blood tests done.   ????

 

I am not going to try and convince you that keto is a good thing, nor should you let others on this forum attempt to convince you that it is bad.  That's a choice you should make for yourself and it should be based on information you get from genuine science based sources like PubMed and scientific journals, not YouTube and health blogs that merely rehash third-party interpretations of original research, and more often than not result in mis-information and half-truths. 

 

Don't be afraid of reading scientific research reports or journals.  There's a lot that may go over your head, but if you use your brain, and have the patience to google for things you don't understand, sources like those can give you everything you need to make a well-educated decision, ands feel confident you have made the right choice.

 

 

Thanks WaveHunter for your reply and advice. 

 

I am not trying to lose any weight now but reduce some belly fat and increase some muscle (upper body and/or legs).

 

B12 I am already taking. 

 

Protein - well it depends on how much I require. Looking at the literature, it seems that being older (60) and athletic means I need more than a sedentary & younger person needs. Some sources suggest that I need to take in around 1.8 - 2.0g/kg body weight. So for me that means around 144 - 160g per day. Easily achieved if eating meat, fish, eggs, etc. But not so easy if following a vegan diet. I found myself feeling weak and not recovering well after exercise, so I went back to consuming whey protein isolate and found I felt better. Hence I now want to find a vegan protein supplement like the sacha inchi powder (60% protein). And it's cheaper but I guess the amino acid profile may not be as good as the isolate, though I get protein from other foods, so I don't see any need to get into too much detail on amino acids. 

 

I do do research (reading pubmed abstracts) but I find that many times the information varies considerably between sources, (and I know there is a lot of "bad science" around) so then you still have to make a personal decision about which research/advice you think is sound and trustworthy.

 

"Find a doctor who is truly knowledgable" - I trust the advice of the cycling doctor Dr Gabe Mirkin https://www.drmirkin.com because (a) he's a medical doctor, (b) he's a cyclist, (c) he's a lot older than I am and still cycling lots, (d) he is living proof that a plant-based diet works, (e) he bases his advice on scientific articles, (f) the advice he gives is free and he is not trying to sell anything. 

 

Returning to the topic of dietary fibre and the keto diet - perhaps not relevant for you but others - is this from the UK:

 

Dietary fibre is found in cereal foods, including bread, beans, lentils, fruit & vegetables
It cannot be broken down by human digestive enzymes
In the UK most people do not eat enough fibre (the average intake is 17.2/day for women and 20.1g/day for men). The recommended average intake for adults is 30g per day.
A low fibre intake is associated with constipation and some gut diseases such as bowel cancer
A high fibre diet can help reduce cholesterol, reduce the risk of diabetes and can help protect against overweight

https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritionscience/nutrients-food-and-ingredients/dietary-fibre.html 

 

And this from the USA:

 

The American Heart Association Eating Plan suggests eating a variety of food fiber sources. Total dietary fiber intake should be 25 to 30 grams a day from food, not supplements. Currently, dietary fiber intakes among adults in the United States average about 15 grams a day. That's about half the recommended amount.

https://www.ucsfhealth.org/education/increasing_fiber_intake/

 

The above numbers concern the "average person" not just people following a keto diet. And I reckon that if the typical keto diet is low in plant-based foods then it will be lower in fibre than the average person's non-keto diet. 

 

Furthermore, one of the main consequences of inadequate dietary fibre can be colorectal cancer and this kind of cancer is a major cause of death in many countries. And my understanding is that cancers in general can take many years to develop. So it seems plausible to me that many people following a keto diet may be at higher risk of getting colorectal cancer but may not see the cancer until some years down the road. 

 

You mentioned blood tests, so I am curious to know if any of these blood tests provide early warning signs of colorectal cancer? Just because your blood pressure, lipid levels, sugar/insulin levels, etc, look good, does not mean you don't have cancer growing in your gut, does it? 

 

Finally, since I last posted, I have come to learn that although you say you are a competitive cyclist, you are doping on T. That's against the rules of competitive sports. It's cheating! Shame on you. 

 

JB

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, JungleBiker said:

...Finally, since I last posted, I have come to learn that although you say you are a competitive cyclist, you are doping on T. That's against the rules of competitive sports. It's cheating! Shame on you. ...

Regarding my use of T; firstly I am not a professional cyclist, just to set the record straight. 

 

No offense, but you seem to be ignorant of the fact that testosterone is not simply a performance enhancing drug but is also prescribed to treat certain medical conditions.

 

My use of injectable testosterone is to treat a such a condition and is done under the supervision of a physician.  The amount that is injected is not within the range that would be considered to be "performance enhancing"...not even close!

 

Furthermore, If I were to compete in a sanctioned event where I needed to be blood tested I would be allowed to do so.  All that is required is getting a "Therapeutic Use Exemption" from WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency).  https://www.wada-ama.org/en/what-we-do/science-medical/therapeutic-use-exemptions

 

Instead of making an unfounded and prejudiced comment as you have done, you should have considered that my use of T might have been medically justified instead of simply assuming I am, in your words, "a cheat" !  You owe me an apology.

 

[WaveHunter]

HOW MANY MEALS PER DAY REQUIRED FOR ABSORPTION OF DAILY PROTEIN REQUIREMENTS?

 

NOTE:  This is a long post and is really directed to a few people that I’ve been discussing this with through PM’s.  I’m posting it publicly because what I’ve learned is pretty eye-opening and should be of interest to everyone who is really curious about protein metabolism, and with the specific question of how much protein the body can make use of from a single meal.  I'm sorry that It is a long post but it needs to be in order to properly explain the underlying science.

 

In regard to previous discussion concerning the amount of protein that can be assimilated in a single meal, I’ve been wrestling with the notion of whether or not my own One-Meal-Per-Day (OMAD) strategy can provide sufficient protein for an active lifestyle or not.  By “active” lifestyle, I mean one that involves an average daily calorie burn of about  2500 kcal (1500kcals for Basal Metabolic Rate + 1000 kcals for athletic activity).  I am also assuming that the total amount of protein required per day is somewhere between 1.5 - 2.0 grams per kg of lean body mass (for my BMR and level of activity).

 

First of all, regarding the total amount of protein needed daily, The recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for protein is 0.36g/lbs of bodyweight which for an average individual weighing between 150-180 pounds would be 55-70 grams of protein per day.

 

[https://books.google.co.th/books?id=nbR80wOZGz8C&pg=PT184&lpg=PT184&dq=0.36g/lbs+of+body+weight+RDA&source=bl&ots=CTijDAO15o&sig=ACfU3U3bFqZhuKQt0HhI16v1YLSxn6p_Uw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiPwtjcr5_iAhWLr48KHUcyCdYQ6AEwCXoECDAQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false]

 

However, this is not ideal for the majority of the population and most people actually need more, especially if you’re exercising…but not as much as many people believe.

 

In general, the optimal amount of protein tends to be somewhere between 0.7-1.0 g/lbs or 1.5-2.0 g/kgs of lean body mass (LBM), which for the same average individual weighing between 150-180 pounds would be 110-160 grams of protein at a minimum. There are no seeming benefits to eating more than 0.8 g/lbs of LBM, even when trying to build muscle. You definitely don’t need to be eating above 1.0g/lbs of LBM as you’ll simply waste that protein. 

 

[https://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/]

 

I think the body can actually assimilate all protein required on a daily basis from one-meal-per-day (OMAD) though it may be slightly borderline for an extremely active person.  I definitely think that more than 30 grams of protein per meal can be used by the body for protein building blocks in the form of amino acids and for triggering protein synthesis, and the discussion that follows is why I believe this.  

 

Id’ welcome feedback, both positive and negative, in the form of intelligent and informed comment and debate that includes references to underlying science-based facts…not simply opinion or conjecture.  

 

So, to start, the commonly accepted view is that your body can not assimilate any more than 20-30 grams of protein per meal, and this is based on the view that the body can not store dietary protein.  I don't agree with this notion and this post explains why.  

 

It’s mostly true that the body can not store protein.  To store protein requires that it be converted to glucose through gluconeogenesis first.  That glucose will then either be burned off as energy or if you’ve already met your daily caloric needs, stored as fat.

 

Gluconeogenesis is driven by demand, not supply.  In the short term, an influx of increased protein supply won’t trigger gluconeogenesis of your own muscle tissue because there is no demand there. The body will have met its need for amino acids and thus doesn’t require additional glucose. Temporary protein stores fluctuate throughout the day and they’re connected to the feeding and fasting cycles.

 

[ http://archive.unu.edu/unupress/food2/UID07E/UID07E05.HTM ]

 

One of the main arguments in favor of splitting total total protein requirements over several meals is that you have to keep muscle protein synthesis (MPS) active by frequent spiking throughout the day with multiple meals because there is only a limited amount of protein that can be absorbed in a given meal.  

 

The argument continues with the notion that when you digest protein, it gets broken down into amino acids that will be transported into the bloodstream to be used as building blocks. There are a limited amount of transporter cells and receptors in the small intestine which restricts how many amino acids can be moved into the blood. Hence the theory that your body can only absorb a certain amount of protein in one meal.

 

Certain proteins are absorbed faster than others which allows the amino acids to be used more quickly as well. However, there are many other factors that determine protein absorption such as the pH levels of the gut, the permeability of the intestinal lining, protein sensitivity, and the presence of hormones related to gastric emptying

 

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12646289]

 

The general consensus is that you can only absorb 30 grams of protein per meal and you need to spread your protein intake across multiple meals to maximize protein synthesis over the 24-hour period. However, it doesn’t mean that eating fewer meals with higher amounts of protein would make you waste away that protein. Humans in nature wouldn’t have a steady intake of protein either yet they function perfectly well.

 

This is where things get interesting!  Amino acids and some peptides are able to self-regulate their time in the intestines. For example, the digestive hormone cholecystokinin (CCK) can slow down the contraction speed of intestines in response to protein intake. 

 

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17940422 ] 

 

CCK gets released when you eat dietary protein and it slows down your digestion as to absorb it better. 

 

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20938986] 

 

Here is a visual depiction showing CCK control of gallbladder contractions

 

If you were to absorb protein too quickly, your liver wouldn’t be able to maintain a steady stream of amino acids into the blood over the 24-hour period because you’ll burn them all for energy.   Even if you’ve eaten a large piece of steak with over 60 grams of protein, you wouldn’t be converting those amino acids into energy immediately anyway. Because of CCK and the generally slower speed of digesting steak, the protein from that steak will be digested over the course of many hours and your body will slowly assimilate those nutrients without wasting them away.

 

A Mayo Clinic study found that, on average, it takes about 24-35 hours for food to fully travel through the digestive tract and be completely absorbed  [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3023168 ]

 

• As soon as you consume something with calories, you’re entering into a fed state and your body’s going to be breaking down that food. 

 

• After a few hours of digestion, your body goes into the post-absorptive stage, wherein the nutrients of the last meal are still circulating in the bloodstream. This can last up to 8-12 hours and that’s when you’ll truly enter a fasted state.

 

This is where things start getting very interesting!  The intestines will contract according to the speed at which it can digest food. If they can’t handle any more protein, then they won’t waste this precious resource away but will simply slow down gastric emptying. After a few moments, when you’ve digested the protein you already consumed, the intestines will then move the remaining protein down the line so to say and continue absorption.

 

If you eat more protein than your body needs right now to trigger protein synthesis, it slows down the digestion of the excess and then gradually releases the amino acids into the blood over the course of the coming hours when your protein synthesis gets lower. Some amino acids can even be temporarily stored inside muscle cells for future use whether for maintaining amino acid homeostasis or for energy production. 

 

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26882/]

 

The reason it’s thought that you can only absorb 30 grams of protein in one sitting is that you only need about 20-30 grams of protein to trigger muscle protein synthesis and actually build muscle [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19056590]. Any more than 40 grams doesn’t stimulate MPS further.

 

Muscle Protein Synthesis Peaks at 20-40 grams of protein

 

Triggering muscle protein synthesis is mostly regulated through leucine, which is the main anabolic amino acid. It requires about 2-3 grams of leucine to activate MPS and generally, you can get that amount of leucine from 20-30 grams of a complete protein. That’s where this rationale originated from.

 

However, this doesn’t really tell you much about how much protein you can end up absorbing in one meal. It just tells you that if you want to keep the muscle building signal activated more frequently then you’d have to spike muscle protein synthesis more frequently as well. There’s no indication of how it affects muscle protein synthesis over the 24-hour period.

 

However, the stimulation for muscle growth after resistance training will remain elevated for a long period of time. Studies have found that the potentiation of exercise-induced increases in myofibrillar protein synthesis and AKT/mTOR signaling by protein consumption is sustained for at least 24 hours post-workout [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204]. Even if you stimulate MPS twice (2 meals) within those 24 hours compared to 3 or more times (meals) you can still build muscle if you eat enough protein within that time frame.

 

Additionally, more frequent spikes of protein synthesis won’t necessarily mean more muscle growth either because if you just eat 30 grams of protein then there aren’t many amino acids in that small meal to build new tissue either. If you were to eat that large steak again with 60 grams of protein, you’ll activate protein synthesis and you’ll have more than enough building blocks as well. So, in theory, it could be that less frequent spikes in muscle protein synthesis but with a higher amount of protein could potentially build more muscle just because of the higher availability of amino acids that could be absorbed much more efficiently.

 

Eating fewer meals and consuming more than 30 grams of protein in one sitting with intermittent fasting has not been shown to have any negative consequences in terms of lean tissue maintenance. One study done on women who ate their daily protein requirements of 79g of protein in either a single meal or 4 meals saw no difference in terms of protein metabolism and absorption. 

 

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10867039].

 

Several intermittent fasting studies have also shown that eating your entire days' protein in a 4-hour eating window has had no negative effects on muscle preservation

• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19776143
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21410865
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17413096
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30470804

 

When it comes to body composition and fat loss, then meal timing has been shown to be irrelevant as intermittent fasting doesn’t slow down your metabolism or make you lose muscle.

 

Recent research indicates that, when fasted, we can use up to 3.5g/kg/day of protein and breakdown and metabolize up to 4.3g/kg/day.

 

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28807333].

 

This makes sense in an evolutionary context where would be primed to use a lot of protein after going without and then making up for lost time after a successful hunt.

 

Eating 3 or more small meals a day may elevate muscle protein synthesis more frequently, but more frequent surges of muscle protein synthesis won’t necessarily mean more muscle growth because what matters most is how much protein your body ends up absorbing over the course of the 24-hour period. If you’re doing intermittent fasting with 2 meals a day, you can spike muscle protein synthesis twice a day and that’s going to be more than enough to force your body to grow. What matters more for muscle growth is the training stimulus and adaptive signal.

 

In fact, being in a fasted state makes you more protein sparing and anti-catabolic by increasing growth hormone and ketones. Higher levels of growth hormone and IGF-1 can stimulate muscle protein synthesis and it definitely improves the body’s sensitivity to protein intake.

 

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9022951].

 

You’ll end up absorbing your food better because it’s perceived as more scarce.

 

So, simply put…splitting daily protein intake between two meals seems to be optimal and returns diminish thereafter.  OMAD is probably fine if daily protein requirements are for a sedentary person, however there is no need IMO to go beyond 2 meals per day no matte how high your daily protein requirements might be.

[Destiny1990]

9 hours ago, robblok said:

Then just try to do some weight lifting (if you are not already) with your diet. It will serve a great purpose in making sure your 10 KG are fat not muscle. I know I am a weight lifter but it has been proven its the most effective way to keep on muscle while dieting and to make sure you lose fat not muscle.

 

T injections im sure you thought about them are an option too. 

 

But the low T won't really affect your diet as much as you think (might have other problems). But for diet its all about how much you eat and what you eat. 

 

I like that you are a realist and take 3 months for it. Don't forget you need to lose more then 10kg if you go low carb as the first losses are water. 

You’re right about using weights there isn’t really an escape if want to loose weight in a correct way.

Problem is that by using weights it will make sticking with a strict diet plan harder. I believe by using weights it boost T level a bit while if do only a diet plan with minimal exercise it just is going to lower T thus resulting in a lower libido.

Anyway 10 Kilos 3 Months is a realistic time frame and way better loosing weight slowly than quickly.

So okey I will do 3 x 5 push-ups now and 3 x 8 squats without weights.

Don’t  laugh pls.????

 

[JungleBiker]

6 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Regarding my use of T; firstly I am not a professional cyclist, just to set the record straight. 

 

 

The doping rules apply to amateurs and professionals.

 

6 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

 

No offense, but you seem to be ignorant of the fact that testosterone is not simply a performance enhancing drug but is also prescribed to treat certain medical conditions.

 

 

No, I am not ignorant of that fact.  

 

6 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

 

My use of injectable testosterone is to treat a such a condition and is done under the supervision of a physician.  

 

That is irrelavent unless you have a "Theraputic Use Exemption" (TUE).

 

Do you have a TUE? 

 

 

6 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

 

The amount that is injected is not within the range that would be considered to be "performance enhancing"...not even close!

 

 

Obviously the amount you inject has a positive effect on your body otherwise why would you be injecting it? 

 

Are you willing to tell us how much you inject and what is considered to be the "range that would be considered to be "performance enhancing"". That is something I am ignorant about. I did not know there were levels of injected exogenous T that do not enhance performance. 

 

6 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

 

Furthermore, If I were to compete in a sanctioned event where I needed to be blood tested I would be allowed to do so.  All that is required is getting a "Therapeutic Use Exemption" from WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency).  https://www.wada-ama.org/en/what-we-do/science-medical/therapeutic-use-exemptions

 

 

 

Yes, I am well aware of TUEs, and I know that in the case of T, they are not easy to get. My guess is that you would not qualify for a TUE and therefore you would be guilty of cheating. 

 

And even if an event is not subjected to blood testing, it would still be cheating.  

 

6 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

 

Instead of making an unfounded and prejudiced comment as you have done, you should have considered that my use of T might have been medically justified instead of simply assuming I am, in your words, "a cheat" !  You owe me an apology.

 

 

It is not a question of whether your use of T is medically justified, it is a question of whether you qualify for a TUE for your use of T when racing competitively. If not, then you should not be racing. 

 

I don't care if you inject T but I do care that if by doing so you might have an unfair advantage over me in a competitive cycling race, regardless of whether it is a sanctioned race or not. 

 

If you can get a TUE then I will apologise. 

 

 

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, JungleBiker said:

 

The doping rules apply to amateurs and professionals.

 

 

No, I am not ignorant of that fact.  

 

That is irrelavent unless you have a "Theraputic Use Exemption" (TUE).

 

Do you have a TUE? 

 

 

 

Obviously the amount you inject has a positive effect on your body otherwise why would you be injecting it? 

 

Are you willing to tell us how much you inject and what is considered to be the "range that would be considered to be "performance enhancing"". That is something I am ignorant about. I did not know there were levels of injected exogenous T that do not enhance performance. 

 

 

Yes, I am well aware of TUEs, and I know that in the case of T, they are not easy to get. My guess is that you would not qualify for a TUE and therefore you would be guilty of cheating. 

 

And even if an event is not subjected to blood testing, it would still be cheating.  

 

 

It is not a question of whether your use of T is medically justified, it is a question of whether you qualify for a TUE for your use of T when racing competitively. If not, then you should not be racing. 

 

I don't care if you inject T but I do care that if by doing so you might have an unfair advantage over me in a competitive cycling race, regardless of whether it is a sanctioned race or not. 

 

If you can get a TUE then I will apologise. 

 

 

Grow up and stop talking trash.  I have absolutely no need for a TUE because I only race socially with fellow Strava riders, and as I said before my prescribed dosage would not provide me with any competitive advantage whatsoever...not even one extra frigg*n watt!

 

Furthermore, both my physician ( a sports doctor), and my endocrinologist have assured me that if I decide to race formally as an amateur I would absolutely qualify for a recreational competitor exemption (RCTUE) and they would support me in the process of getting one.

 

Finally, I want to say I think it's pretty offensive to actually call me a cheat before you even knew any details whatsoever about my prescribed use of T or the type of racing I do.  But of course, this is ThaiVisa so I guess I shouldn't be surprised at your troll-like behavior.

[Destiny1990]

28 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Grow up and stop talking trash.  Have you nothing better to do with your time than make mean-spirited, unfounded, and troll-like comments?  Don't bother answering; the answer is more than obvious.  This conversation is over.

In all openness wouldn’t you be feeling a lot less positive on this fasting and one meal a day food plan without doing T shots? lets be fair here.

By the way i got nothing against T shots.

[WaveHunter]

23 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

In all openness wouldn’t you be feeling a lot less positive on this fasting and one meal a day food plan without doing T shots? lets be fair here.

By the way i got nothing against T shots.

Truly, no offense intended here, but this conversation is getting a little silly.  My use of T is to treat a medical condition, not to enhance performance.  If I were using 500mg of test per week, THAT would be for performance enhancement.  TRT dosages are only intended to restore serum test levels to "physiological normal" ranges, not to become SuperMan ????

 

Again, I assure you that there is no meaningful relationship between testosterone and diet.  One's ability to fast has nothing at all to do with testosterone levels.  Don't take this the wrong way and I only am saying this to be helpful, but it sounds to me like you are looking for excuses to avoid taking positive action at improving your metabolic health.

 

Forget about your T level and focus on your nutritional strategy, whatever you decide it should be!  If T is a real concern, get the injections and be done with your concerns about it.  Really it is just that simple.

 

Whether you believe it or not, I am really rooting for you to succeed!  As the Nike ad goes, "Just Do It!" ????

 

[WaveHunter]

43 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

In all openness wouldn’t you be feeling a lot less positive on this fasting and one meal a day food plan without doing T shots? lets be fair here.

By the way i got nothing against T shots.

Oh, and BTW, I have decided to go to two-meals-per-day; no more OMAD for me.  I posted a long-assed post earlier today outlining my reasons.  It simply has to do with protein absorption though.  I still will continue monthly 72 hour fasts in the interest of staying keto-adapted and promoting autophagy.

 

I hope you understand that I am not promoting my nutritional strategy to anyone else, including you.  Simply put, it works for ME. 

 

What I am promoting to you and anyone else who cares to listen, is simply to find a long-term strategy that works best for YOU.  It took me a number of years of exploring different ones like Vegan, Paleo, and variations of them to finally figure out that none of them really work out-of-the-box, and the real key is to adopt the best elements of all of them into a strategy that is right specifically for you. 

 

It shouldn't be a short term goal of "going on a diet" to shed a few pounds or you will spend your life going from one crazy fad or in-vogue diet to the next.  Instead you should adopt a sound, science-based long-term nutritional strategy for optimum metabolic health that will keep you healthy and happy for the rest of your life.  That's the way I see it at least.

 

[WaveHunter]

51 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

In all openness wouldn’t you be feeling a lot less positive on this fasting and one meal a day food plan without doing T shots? lets be fair here.

By the way i got nothing against T shots.

BTW, the comment of mine you quoted:

 

"...Grow up and stop talking trash.  Have you nothing better to do with your time than make mean-spirited, unfounded, and troll-like comments?  Don't bother answering; the answer is more than obvious.  This conversation is over.... "

 

was NOT directed at you.  I hope you understand that, and I'm not sure why you are quoting it ??

 

[Destiny1990]

44 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

BTW, the comment of mine you quoted:

 

"...Grow up and stop talking trash.  Have you nothing better to do with your time than make mean-spirited, unfounded, and troll-like comments?  Don't bother answering; the answer is more than obvious.  This conversation is over.... "

 

was NOT directed at you.  I hope you understand that, and I'm not sure why you are quoting it ??

 

I know ????..but since ur discussion with him  it was about T so than since i am concerned about that too I bounced inside.

I understand that you only restore T to optimum levels or lets say to healthy levels anything higher would be foolish.

But understand me too i am saying loosing weight will lower T so than to restore it is tempting.

i am doing 16:8 with less carbs now and maybe next month try 5:2 for a month.

Will try loose 10 kilos first and check T afterwards is the plan.

Will keep you posted.

[WaveHunter]

28 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

I know ????..but since ur discussion with him  it was about T so than since i am concerned about that too I bounced inside.

I understand that you only restore T to optimum levels or lets say to healthy levels anything higher would be foolish.

But understand me too i am saying loosing weight will lower T so than to restore it is tempting.

i am doing 16:8 with less carbs now and maybe next month try 5:2 for a month.

Will try loose 10 kilos first and check T afterwards is the plan.

Will keep you posted.

Yes, please do keep me posted; I'm really interested to see how you do ???? 

 

As regard the T though, I wouldn't worry about it.  Lots of things can make your T level drop.  Simply training hard in the gym or in athletics can and usually will make it plummet, and most people aren't even aware of it by how they feel. 

 

There are times when I intentionally stop injecting for weeks just because I think it's wise to give my body a break, or I'm traveling a lot and don't want the hassle of bring the stuff on international trips, and I have to say that I feel no worse for it.  In all honesty, I sometimes wonder whether all I'm getting is a placebo effect from it.  Fact is, if it weren't so cheap to buy and to do the blood testing here in Thailand, I would probably discontinue using it I think!  If you had asked me a year ago, I probably would not have said that, but that's the way I feel about it now.

 

As I said before, I think there is just too much hype put out by the pharmaceutical companies and TRT clinics about all the supposed positive benefits from TRT, and it's not hard to see that their motive is primarily profit-driven, and not so much the health and welfare of the patient.

 

[robblok]

13 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

You’re right about using weights there isn’t really an escape if want to loose weight in a correct way.

Problem is that by using weights it will make sticking with a strict diet plan harder. I believe by using weights it boost T level a bit while if do only a diet plan with minimal exercise it just is going to lower T thus resulting in a lower libido.

Anyway 10 Kilos 3 Months is a realistic time frame and way better loosing weight slowly than quickly.

So okey I will do 3 x 5 push-ups now and 3 x 8 squats without weights.

Don’t  laugh pls.????

 

Why would i laugh about what others do for training. We all need to start somewhere the weaker you are the more progress you can make. Its even possible then to lose fat and gain muscle for beginners. Just keep your protein at about 1,5g per kg of bodyweight. You need more protein to keep your muscles if your trying to lose weight.

 

If you can try to increase weights reps ect, progressive overload builds (and keeps) muscle. Yes you might be a big more hungry though I am usually not hungry after a workout. 

[robblok]

6 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

I know ????..but since ur discussion with him  it was about T so than since i am concerned about that too I bounced inside.

I understand that you only restore T to optimum levels or lets say to healthy levels anything higher would be foolish.

But understand me too i am saying loosing weight will lower T so than to restore it is tempting.

i am doing 16:8 with less carbs now and maybe next month try 5:2 for a month.

Will try loose 10 kilos first and check T afterwards is the plan.

Will keep you posted.

Its not that injecting T (TRT not bodybuilding doses) would not help you during you diet. But not in the way you think. It would not speed up the loss of fat, rather it would help you hold on to muscle and even build a bit if your T was real low and you start doing weightlifting exercises. 

 

But its not something you really feel, i have used in the past far more then TRT when i first came here and saw it all available i wanted to try. So i did 500 (a week) mg of test for 12 weeks. That is something you feel (after a few weeks and because its the first time) and then you build muscle. TRT is much lower and you don't feel much. Does not mean its not there it just not as big a difference then. (for muscle building). 

 

On TRT the dosage is much lower still I am happy i tried it (bodybuilder doses) i know its effects and can talk about it with experience not just about what I have read. You still need to work your ass off in a gym, you still need to eat good to maximise muscle gain. There have been studies that just injecting bodybuilding doses gains muscles without training. But its not as much as what would have been gained without.

 

Anyway don't expect that on TRT but it will help in the gym but not hugely. But at our age we can use every advantage we can get.

 

Anyway I don't compete and people can call me a cheat for having used it and using TRT now... and even this period I am using peptides for HGH to help me lose more fat (not sure if its working or not as my weight went up.. could be water or muscle). I don't really care now.. just going to wait it out as how i look is good enough now. I want more but know it won't happen soon. The last bits of fat are the hardest.

[robblok]

@JungleBiker

 

Yes using testosterone and competing is cheating. Unless of course you stay under the allowed levels. I have cheated for real using bodybuilder doses, I always wanted to try and I did. Still happy I did as now I can talk about it from experience not from what i read and repeating what people say. 

 

Its been a years since I done it but I remember the first time quite well as its the best time. I tried a second time but it just did not give the same results at all. That is why you see huge doses for bodybuilding. You need more and more if you want to get past a certain size. Not my goal so no need.

 

I train at home (nobody to impress but myself) and compete with myself and nobody else. So I don't really care what people think. Now on TRT and since 1 1/2 week on peptides GHRP 2 too. To see if it helps. The peptides have helped me in one way. My sleep has improved a bit. I feel more rested. (not every day). 

 

I don't get it why you came down so hard on Wavehunter, he was not competing professionally or as an amateur. He was just doing TrT and those dosages stay within normal limits. Sure it helps but it just puts him on equal foot with a healthy person.. or to be honest just above one. Depending a bit on the levels. But its not that much of an advantage. But its a great advantage for general life. 

 

My T was low, and Thyroid too, fixed the T with Trt, did not fix the thyroid as those medicine kept me from sleeping. I tried quite a few shortcuts / drugs to lose extra fat. The reality is some do work, but only if your diet and exercise are great already. Then they can help speed things up or break through certain plateau's. I am now again at a plateau (i think) but will see if I can add more cardio to break through it.

[wisperone]

Forget about fasting, dieting, or any other of the du jour antics.

 

The science is to eat a well balanced diet, involving clean foods, exercise, breather clean air, don't smoke or over indulge, ...everything in moderation.  Easy peasy.

[WaveHunter]

4 hours ago, robblok said:

@JungleBiker

 

...I don't get it why you came down so hard on Wavehunter, he was not competing professionally or as an amateur. He was just doing TrT and those dosages stay within normal limits. Sure it helps but it just puts him on equal foot with a healthy person.. or to be honest just above one. Depending a bit on the levels. But its not that much of an advantage. But its a great advantage for general life. ...

@JungleBiker

Well put Robblok.  Perhaps I over-reacted to JungleBiker's post but it is incredibly insulting to call someone a cheat without even knowing them or anything about their medical condition or their competitive intentions.  I race purely as a recreational rider.  Most of the people I race against and have gotten to know on Strava know I am on TRT.  None of them have ever accused me of cheating when I beat them or when I achieve a PR, so what gives you that right when you don't even know me?

 

Now, if I were riding as a professional or an elite amateur, where even the very slightest competitive advantage might be the difference between winning and loosing, then I could see your point, and so does the USADA.  I'm under no illusion that, even though I am sure I could get a recreational competitor exemption, it would probably be revoked if I started winning a lot of races, but the fact is that I have no interest in competing at that level and if I ever did have that intention, I would not even seek an exemption but simply quit TRT (which I'm probably going to do anyway because I no longer believe in its' efficacy.) 

 

Even though my use of T is to treat a medical condition and the dosage is hardly performance enhancing at less then 100mg /week (performance enhancing dosages are 500mg +), I concede it could provide a VERY slight advantage on the professional or elite amateur level. 

 

For instance, I use 75mg of T per week and my serum T right now is around 700ng/dL which is in the normal range for my age group.  Let's say I'm competing against someone who has a natural T of the same level.  When training hard there is usually a slight drop in T and also in red blood cells.  For me, that drop will be slightly less but the competitive advantage would be so low that it would only be significant in extremely high level competition, if that.

 

And on the other hand, you should consider that a medical condition that puts me at a disadvantage even though I train just as hard as my competitors is equally unfair, which is why TUE's exist.

 

Anyway, I race for the pleasure of racing and for the camaraderie of riding with people I enjoy being around.  They don't give me sh*t about my TRT; neither should you.

 

[WaveHunter]

4 hours ago, wisperone said:

... The science is to eat a well balanced diet, involving clean foods, exercise, breather clean air, don't smoke or over indulge, ...everything in moderation.  Easy peasy. ...

I agree with everything you said in selected quote above, except you haven't defined what a well balanced diet is.  Aside from fasting, which is more to do with general metabolic health than nutrition, this thread is about exploring just what constitutes a well balanced diet.  So, what is your definition?

[WaveHunter]

On 5/8/2019 at 12:57 PM, lagavulin1 said:

Ketogenisis is well described and understood in the literature. I don't argue with your article. 

I am puzzled though why you have failed to mention the ketogenic Diets which seems to me a much more interesting way of living (apart from having to stop beer). Do you perceive any additional benefits from fasting? 

Water fasting and ketogenic diets are similar in nature but serve different purposes.  The biggest distinction is that water fasting should not be considered a “weight loss diet”, except to treat extreme complications of metabolic disease (I.e.: type 2 diabetes).

 

I am not obese yet I periodically fast.  I am a competitive road cyclist and I fast for the purpose keto-adaptation.  What I mean is that I train my body to be better able to use stored body fat as a alternative fuel source in situations where my glycogen stores start to become depleted like intense hill-climbing or extended rides.

 

This glycogen-depleted condition is referred to as “bonking” by athletes.  The usual remedy is to use carb-rich (sugar) sports gels during competition but these products have serious drawbacks and must be heavily consumed during competition which is far from ideal.

 

Training your body to be keto-adapted through periodic fasting improves the body’s ability to quickly access and use stored body fat as fuel, thus lessening the effects of glycogen deprivation.

 

A good analogy is to liken it to the way hybrid car engines can use both gasoline and electricity as alternative fuel sources.

 

It works well in spite of what many close-minded and uninformed naysayers will argue.  More and more endurance athletes are embracing the concept of Keto-adaptation through periodic fasting.

 

This isn’t of value only to athletes.  Anyone can benefit from keto-adaptation because it improves the body’s ability to burn stored fat, not to mention it also promotes accelerated autophagy (but that’s another topic you should explore).

 

There is a lot of sound underlying science to this which you can learn by googling.  There is also a lot of health-guru type BS out there too so you need to be careful about your information sources.

 

In essence, water fasting is a quick and sure means to becoming keto-adapted.  Periodic 72 hour fasts will allow it to happen.  Hormonal pathways of fat metabolism are redefined, and those changes “stick” after the fast is completed.  Personally I find a frequency of monthly or bi-monthly fasts are sufficient to maintain keto-adaptation.

 

Ketogenic diets will allow for this to happen too.  The reason I  choose fasting over ketogenic diets is that I need a reasonable level of carbs in my regular diet, and a ketogenic diets requires restricting carbs below 50 grams or so per day to activate ketosis; just too low for my needs.

 

Theres a lot to be said for ketogenic diets and for water fasting, but just don’t fall for the notion of water-fasting as a weight loss diet.  It can work but if you are a relatively active person, the pitfalls of fasting any longer than say, 3-5 days outweigh the benefits IMO (unless you have life-threatening complications of obesity (advanced stage Diabetes 2) and are doing it under a doctors supervision.  

 

If if you are in reasonably good health (See your doctor and get blood tests), a 3 day water fast is not going to do any harm, and can be one of the healthiest things you can do for your metabolic health IMHO.

 

 

[BobBKK]

It's really weird just finished another 3 day water fast (very strict water only) and not even lost one gram. I have been intermittent fasting for 30 years and only eat once a day but I swear it's genetic as my father was at least 70 kilo more than me. Frustrating it is.

[Mavideol]

2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

It's really weird just finished another 3 day water fast (very strict water only) and not even lost one gram. I have been intermittent fasting for 30 years and only eat once a day but I swear it's genetic as my father was at least 70 kilo more than me. Frustrating it is.

been there done that and feel for you....for the past 4 months, one meal a day, green salad, tomatoes olive oil little vinegar, no alcohol (only water), no smoke, walk 4-5 kms a day and didn't lose one damn ounce/gram

[Kohsamida]

38 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

It's really weird just finished another 3 day water fast (very strict water only) and not even lost one gram. I have been intermittent fasting for 30 years and only eat once a day but I swear it's genetic as my father was at least 70 kilo more than me. Frustrating it is.

How much water were you consuming daily, and how much were you excreting?  In other words, temporary water retention could be what's going on.  It happens often for many people, especially if they're not keto-adapted prior to the fast. 

 

Also, what about bowel movements during and after the fast?  Another factor to consider possibly.

 

You do know that ketosis is only just starting to kick in by the third day, right?  Your actual net loss of fat stores on a 3 day fast should only be about 1.5 pounds at most after refeeding.

[Harveyg]

Wondering how fermented foods may be related to the benefits of any sort of fasting. My issue is tiredness, although seems better lately. I received results about 3 weeks ago from a stool sample i had submitted for testing. One of the results was low number of microbes.

so everyday I’ve taken 1 or 2 spoonfuls of various kinds of kimchi, plain yogurt, or sauerkraut.  Also do occasional kefir and kombucha.  At this point I’m doing 16:8 and wondering about in the future, the 72hr minimum. Hoping I can get my energy back.  Any helpful insights are welcome. Thanks.