Burmese Or Thai Nationality

[DaveYo]

I am opening up this part of the issue concerning the two Burmese kids who are in prison in Burma because they have no ID showing who they are and what Nationality they are and they were disposed of to Burma from the Thai authorities, and yet they have no record of Birth registered in Thailand but are claiming Thai citizenship??????????

I hear this happens a lot, so I am curious to know what is the official Thai Disposition in these kind of cases and what is the actual law in Thailand regarding people with no official Birth recorded in Thailand and how can these people obtain some proof of such birth in their own natural country?

In America, they do have a few proceedures which is not that hard and covers this one particular problem as some need to have such recorded for other official businesses etc. I know my grandparents did not have such opportunity to be able to get such recorded pertaining to their birth etc., yet years later they were able to get their births recorded, and of course my parents the same way. They were born during the time of the Titantic sinking, and many cities at this age of time did not have a registry available.

Now we are in what is called the Modern Age, so why cannot people still get their births recorded from their parents?????

This topic is open for discussion for some fact finding answers and or reasons.

Daveyo

[ovenman]

The underlying problem these people face is that merely being born in Thailand, even if one can properly document the birth, does not automatically confer Thai citizenship as it would if one is born in say, America.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I understood that parents were deceased and the mountain people have precious few records, so proving anything is nigh on impossible. There's a project for you Dave ( if you ever get here )

[DaveYo]

To Ovenman and to Dr. PP. First -Ovenman, what seems to be the holdup even if they do register their births properly and keeps them from automatically getting Thai citizenship?????

To Dr.PP - even if parents are decease, I am certain that these individuals have relatives ranging from Grandparents to Uncles and Aunts on downward to be able to certify actual birth in say Thailand, being as witnesses, and maybe perhaps some can show that they are Thai citizens themselves. Besides this, they have midwives, doctors, nurses, and even hospitals or clinics around as also witnesses.

As of the project, yes it is indeed a huge one to undertake, and maybe perhaps I can coordinate a system nation wide in setting up official registries for the people to go to and record such even to the areas that is still perhaps hidden etc. However I am not going to undertake such out of my own pocket, unless the Thai Government hires me or such is hired from His Highness in bettering Thailand overall.

From the sound of this, I suspect this will take some years before the whole system is intact and up and running like clockwork.

Daveyo

[KevinN]

I had this discussion with my wife and she said that they were not Thai's and being hill people that they can never be Thai.

I asked about the hill people that have lived here for hundreds of years and according to an article that I read that the hill people can not work on the land taken by the Thai gov't for wages,because they have no Thai ID card,,she thought that this is fine,because you can not work for gov't if not a Thai,and this ran into a long discussion,,"why aren't they Thai,They were born here" ,,"because they are hill tribes and can not be Thai",,"Why not?","because they are hill tribes",,"But they were here before the Thai",,"don't make any difference,they are hill tribes and can not ever be Thai"

This dialog went on for an hour,and never was settled to my satisfaction,I say if you were born in Thailand,then you should be a Thai,no matter the bloodline involved,,but I guess that a Thai don't see it that way.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

This mind set against the hill tribes amongst the Thai people, is very common and widespread, and thus the government won't risk a political backlash by making any changes whatsoever.

[DaveYo]

Kevin, it seems to me something like the Thais have some hatred towards the hill tribes. Your right, they were here, and have according to what you say been here for eons.

What did the hill tribes ever do to the Thai people to receive such banishment from claiming citizenship??????

This is tantament to pure bias and prejudice involving a small group of people.

This is like say in America, our Indians are not Americans, the Black people are not Americans, the Europeans are not Americans, the Asians are not Americans etc and so forth. Also add Gender, race, color of your skin and sexual preferances to this section too.

If this is the case then Thailand should divide themselves up in sections like it is in one country formerly Yugoslavia. There you have the Serbs, the Croatians, Slovenia. All of this in one supposed territory each running their own respective section and governments. How is that for a settlement????????

Also another possibility is why not put such issue up for a vote among the Thai people to decide like they elect their PM. If the votes favor that such group of people should be given citizenship, it tells everyone the answer. If not it still presents the very same problem like the Palestinians are doing to Israel. This forments hatred between groups of people and can lead to nasty clashes within time. We are now obviously experiencing this coming from the Middle East.

So why can't people learn and see and understand and correct the situation before all this begins?

Daveyo

[DaveYo]

Dr. PP, doesn't Thailand have a Constitution as they say they have that all people are created Equal????????? and have certain inalienable rights????????

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Dr. PP, doesn't Thailand have a Constitution as they say they have that all people are created Equal????????? and have certain inalienable rights????????

For the Thai people Dave. They are saying that the mountain folk are not Thai. There you go squire, there's a major project for you.

[taxexile]

This is tantament to pure bias and prejudice involving a small group of people.

This is like say in America, our Indians are not Americans, the Black people are not Americans, the Europeans are not Americans, the Asians are not Americans etc and so forth. Also add Gender, race, color of your skin and sexual preferances to this section too.

that is exactly what it is daveyo, and exactly how it was in america for a long time and in australia and in many countries in the world where the rights of minorities were overlooked.

things changed slowly in the usa daveyo and i'm sure they will change slowly here too.

Also another possibility is why not put such issue up for a vote among the Thai people to decide like they elect their PM. If the votes favor that such group of people should be given citizenship, it tells everyone the answer

the thai people probably dont give a fig and so a vote would just be a waste of time,totally impractical, and put the cause of the hilltribe people back by 20 years.

So why can't people learn and see and understand and correct the situation before all this begins?......

...........There you go squire, there's a major project for you.

[chanchao]

KevinN, you made this mistake earlier in the other discussion, but then I only saw it after 100 other posts that weren't about this particular thing anymore so I let it slide.

In that post you compared hilltribes with American Indians (Native Americans) in that they were in fact native, indigenous and European Americans came later.

That would be a false comparison because Thais were here WAY before hilltribes. Some of them only arrived very recently, say during the last century. Note that I'm of course not saying that this isn't long enough to qualify for citizenship or some other official legal status)

Second mistake you made is the assumption that no hilltribes are Thais. This is also incorrect. Many actually have ID cards and are just as 'Thai' in a legal sense as your girlfriend, who you should apparently not take as an authority on life, the universe and everything. They have ID's because they can actually apply for it! Not in all areas this applications is processed very fast, but I've been involved in one particular application for a hilltribe girl who needed a passport, and the whole thing was done in a month or so, including ID card & Thai passport!

Then there are many (the majority perhaps) of hill tribes who have an 'in between' status: They don't have the regular white ID card but have a yellow (or was it green) identification card that at least means they have an official status. On this alone they can't legally work outside their own province, so if they want that then getting Thai nationality should be a priority for them.

Often what keeps them from sucessfully getting Thai nationality is lack of education/understanding of the application process, reluctance to attempt anything that involves government officials, or no perceived need for Thai ID. (Lack of understanding is of course NOT their fault: The government could be more pro-active in making everyone 100% Thai).

Hope this cleared some things up. Now back to the original topic about why people were deported to Burma. (IF this is in fact the case!! Quite likely they were just taken to some border refugee center on the Thai side. If people could still contact them by mobile phone as has been reported then they can't really be too far in Burma can't they.. And it's also unlikely that Burmese prison people would let them keep mobile phones.... So... Don't believe everything you read, even on Thaivisa!

Cheers,

Chanchao

[chanchao]

> Kevin, it seems to me something like the Thais have some

> hatred towards the hill tribes. Your right, they were here,

> and have according to what you say been here for eons.

I also don't agree with the hatred thingy, that's completely false as well. (With hate being a pretty strong word). Lack of understanding of hilltribes: sure! Looking down on relatively uneducated mountain/forest dwellers: sure! Paying them less money for the same work than Thais: sure! All these things need to be addressed, but are well short of 'hate'.

Some mothers tell their kids about hilltribes in pretty much the same way as Europeans used to do about gypsies. Actually I think the Thai hilltribe situation is far closer to the Gypsy (Roma) issue in Europe than it is to Aboriginal Australians or native Americans. Anyway, mothers in Europe used to tell their children to stay away from the Gypsies, who go about scamming, practising black magic and stealing children!! This groundless 'fear' and lack of understanding you still see among Thais in relation to hilltribes, especially Thais who don't normally deal/trade with them but are living in general Northern Thailand.

There are also positive changes to the perception Thais have of hilltribe people. Especially the Queen Mother (Somdet Ya, the King's mother) has been VERY active in helping hilltribe people and giving them exposure in the rest of the country. Seeing weekly images on TV of hilltribe people dressing up and paying their respects to the King and Queen Mother made a lot of Thais think far more positive about hilltribe people. You can of course argue that the government should have done FAR more, but at least it's a positive development.

I have taken Thai people to hilltribe villages myself and this is often VERY funny and interesting. Many Thais from Bangkok are as clueless about hilltribes as you average tourist backpacker, or even more so! Some Thais are a bit scared at first, the difficult roads, the forests, the ghosts, the different language... But after a while many of them 'click' in and have a great time and learn a lot. Then there are Northern Thais who listened to stories of the hilltribe boogey-men coming to steal children, but get to the village and get this 'blast from the past' where they see hilltribe people farming, milling rice, cooking in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY their mothers did when they were kids. BAM! years of prejudism and misunderstandings out the window!

There's still a lot to do, but I for one am very optimistic about the future.

Cheers,

Chanchao

Edited May 30, 2004 by chanchao

[maerim]

Don't believe everything you read, even on Thaivisa!

Even if you could.

[Ajarn]

KevinN, you made this mistake earlier in the other discussion, but then I only saw it after 100 other posts that weren't about this particular thing anymore so I let it slide.

In that post you compared hilltribes with American Indians (Native Americans) in that they were in fact native, indigenous and European Americans came later.

That would be a false comparison because Thais were here WAY before hilltribes. Some of them only arrived very recently, say during the last century.  Note that I'm of course not saying that this isn't long enough to qualify for citizenship or some other official legal status)

Second mistake you made is the assumption that no hilltribes are Thais.  This is also incorrect.  Many actually have ID cards and are just as 'Thai' in a legal sense as your girlfriend, who you should apparently not take as an authority on life, the universe and everything.   They have ID's because they can actually apply for it!  Not in all areas this applications is processed very fast, but I've been involved in one particular application for a hilltribe girl who needed a passport, and the whole thing was done in a month or so, including ID card & Thai passport!

Then there are many (the majority perhaps) of hill tribes who have an 'in between' status: They don't have the regular white ID card but have a yellow (or was it green) identification card that at least means they have an official status. On this alone they can't legally work outside their own province, so if they want that then getting Thai nationality should be a priority for them.

Often what keeps them from sucessfully getting Thai nationality is lack of education/understanding of the application process, reluctance to attempt anything that involves government officials, or no perceived need for Thai ID.    (Lack of understanding is of course NOT their fault: The government could be more pro-active in making everyone 100% Thai).

Hope this cleared some things up.  Now back to the original topic about why people were deported to Burma.  (IF this is in fact the case!! Quite likely they were just taken to some border refugee center on the Thai side.   If people could still contact them by mobile phone as has been reported then they can't really be too far in Burma can't they..  And it's also unlikely that Burmese prison people would let them keep mobile phones.... So...  Don't believe everything you read, even on Thaivisa! 

Cheers,

Chanchao

Excellent post, Chanchao. Nice to see some accuracy and balance here in this forum...

So difficult for many to wade through the nonsense, I think

Like you, I feel this burmese prison stuff just doesn't fit some known facts and some common sense....Once they're released at the border with the other illegal immigrants (either at, or slightly inside the border, the gate on the police cagetruck is opened, everyone kicked out, and then it's every person for themself. Happens literally every day in the North) , how are the Thai officials going to keep track of two among 10's of thousands of other undocumented aliens in burma?

I realize common sense is often of little value here, but still, it should be considered, too, na'?

[Johpa]

I had this discussion with my wife and she said that they were not Thai's and being hill people that they can never be Thai.

Having now been married to a Hilltribe Princess going on 17 years I can assure your wife that many hill folks are indeed Thai citizens. You can also try to educate her that some of the hill people, such as the Karen, have been in the region as long, if not longer than the Thais.

It is always interesting to see other Thai people react when they discover that my wife's family originates from the hills. Some Bangkok Thai-Chinese have simply walked away from us never willing to interact with us again, to our great relief I might add. The reaction is often less severe from other city folks, and it becomes irrelevant to most rural folks from the Chiang Mai regions living close to the hills who have had lifelong interactions with hill folks.

The biggest problem is the assimilation of the hill folks once they are given Thai citizenship. How many K'mu speakers do you find in the province these days? Thai Karens are also assimilating towards Thai culture. Only the Mong seem to be resistant, as are their ancient trading partners the Chinese. But educated Lahu and Lisu families tend to slowly assimilate.

But there are problems that are specific to the Akha. Many Akha are recent refugees to the country having fled the violence in Burma. They are placed at the bottom of everyone's totem pole so to speak, including the other hill folks. Let’s face it, on the surface the Akha are a bit different. They are the least likely to be given Thai citizenship and the most likely to have their land taken away and trucked back over the border. They are often used as scapegoats, as are the hill folks in general regarding forestry issues. Back in the 1980s when their were some banditry problems with the tourist boats going down the Kok River the local Akha were always assigned blame in the media although the true culprits were known to some of us and they were not Akha. But as one who is has been fortunate enough to have made Akha friendships, I have found the Akha to be a very honest, friendly and gregarious people.

[Johpa]

I have taken Thai people to hilltribe villages myself and this is often VERY funny and interesting. Many Thais from Bangkok are as clueless about hilltribes as you average tourist backpacker, or even more so! Some Thais are a bit scared at first, the difficult roads, the forests, the ghosts, the different language...

Being scared and clueless is an understatement! I invited a number of Thai friends to my wedding up in the hills way back when. I think only two of them made it. Quite a few others tried but just got a bit too sacred driving up a dirt road into the hills. They got a bit spooked by strange looking folks walking along the side of the road carrying home made hunting rifles. No matter, it was all such a unique event at the time that just about everyone in the Tambon showed up and we went through nearly 300 bottles of Thai whiskey

And when I was teaching at a local college I always tried to invite my Thai peers to come up for a visit but they never did muster up the courage.

The only bold and adventuresome group of Thais I know are the school teachers. These people graduated from the teaching schools as young adults and often were placed into remote schools in the hills. So with litle experience they would be given a great deal on a Dream 125cc motorbike and off they would go up a nearly impassable hill to teach minority students. I really admire those people.

[KevinN]

CHANCHOU; Sorry about the post I made, I have never said anything about HATE from anyone or to anyone,so you had better read a little better,and I do not have a GF, I am married to a Thai school teacher that teaches in a small school in the mountains and has for 20 years and I think knows something about being a Thai.

Quote;The situation faced by the Akha is reminiscent of injustices done to the Native Americans. Tribes in the U.S. were forcibly relocated, aggressively Christianized, and hammered into assimilation. But there was something uniquely horrible about the situation faced by the Akha; most are considered stateless persons. As the Thai government refuses to issue them Thai citizenship documents, they have no protections, no welfare, no recourse to the courts, and no reasonable expectation of justice. In practical terms, without proper Thai ID cards, they are prevented from holding down a job, owning land, voting, or even obtaining a driver's license. Even if they married a westerner, out of pure desperation, they would find no escape, as they would be unable to enter any foreign country, or leave Thailand, without a passport.

Remaining in Thailand, and suffering the fate of a voiceless minority is an inescapable fate for most Akha. "Less than twenty percent of them have a Thai ID card," says Mathew. He went on to say that the number who had a passport was so small as to be insignificant.

As far as I have been able to find out,Thai came here from China to escape treatment from The Gangus Khan and so did the hill tribes,so the have pobly been here as long as the Thai and some indigenous peoples have pobly been here longer,maybe the native peoples of ISSAN. But as to this I am not sure as I do not read Thai and have found no book in English that I would trust.

So before I post anything on Thai Visa again, ,Do you want me to clear it with you,being the local resident expert I know that you must be terribly busy tho.

[Ajarn]

I had this discussion with my wife and she said that they were not Thai's and being hill people that they can never be Thai.

I asked about the hill people that have lived here for hundreds of years and according to an article that I read that the hill people can not work on the land taken by the Thai gov't for wages,because they have no Thai ID card,,she thought that this is fine,because you can not work for gov't if not a Thai,and this ran into a long discussion,,"why aren't they Thai,They were born here" ,,"because they are hill tribes and can not be Thai",,"Why not?","because they are hill tribes",,"But they were here before the Thai",,"don't make any difference,they are hill tribes and can not ever be Thai"

This dialog went on for an hour,and never was settled to my satisfaction,I say if you were born in Thailand,then you should be a Thai,no matter the bloodline involved,,but I guess that a Thai don't see it that way.

 

Kevin, your wife is simply wrong. Just as Chanchao said, hilltribe people can become Thai if they were born here, and can show proof (birth certificate/affidavit from Puuyaibaan). That is a FACT, no matter what your wife says. And your wife speaks for herself, not all other Thais. She certainly is entitled to her opinion, no matter the ignorance of the truth...But it's not fair for you to assume all other Thais will agree with her. Every Thai still has an individual mind.

By the way, Mathew also spewed a lot of crap. People with unbalanced thinking often do, in my experience.

[chanchao]

> CHANCHOU; Sorry about the post I made, I have never said

> anything about HATE from anyone or to anyone,so you had better

> read a little better,

Sorry, the hate-thingy didn't come from you of course. The post I replied to was by DaveYo (See above, let me quote the specific part I was replying to):

--DaveYo wrote:

> Kevin, it seems to me something like the Thais have some hatred towards

> the hill tribes. Your right, they were here, and have according to what

> you say been here for eons.

Then:

> and I do not have a GF, I am married to a Thai school teacher

I'm sorry, my mistake. I should have read your post better.

> I am married to a Thai school teacher who teaches in a small school in the

> mountains and has for 20 years and I think knows something about being a Thai.

"Something" for sure. But not everything. I don't know the context of your conversation with her so it becomes a bit difficult to just claim 'She's wrong' as both information 'in' and 'out' has of course been relayed by you. However if she thinks that no hilltribe people can have Thai nationality, then yes, she would be wrong. Teacher or not.

Overall I apologize for some confusion about who's quote it was and about referring to your wife as 'girlfriend'.

> So before I post anything on Thai Visa again, ,Do you want me to clear

> it with you,being the local resident expert I know that you must be terribly busy

> tho.

No worries!!!! Just because I'm a forum moderator doesn't mean I'm looking to decide what people's opinions should be!! Post anything you want, and that goes for everyone. The more opinions, the better in my view, even when those opinions are not the same as my own!! I will never edit, censor or delete a post just because I don't agree with it or even when I feel it's plainly wrong. I seriously considered making a new 'nickname' just to be able to frankly participate in discussions without people feeling that 'the word of a moderator' is somehow law!

Cheers,

Chanchao

[chanchao]

And when I was teaching at a local college I always tried to invite my Thai peers to come up for a visit but they never did muster up the courage.

I think this is changing though. Thais now holiday a LOT more inside Thailand than they used to. TAT is very active in promoting the sights in pretty much every province. Forests and mountains and hilltribe people are interesting to urban middle class city Thais too, exactly the group who holidays the most.

I think this is a relatively recent development, even 5-10 years ago, Thais used to know diddly squat about the islands, beaches, the mountains, etc unless they actually lived in those regions. Then the economic crises hit which delayed the process a bit. But now I think many Thais, especially younger ones are very much into 'thiow'ing to other regions/provinces. I think the low cost airlines will amplify this even more, when Bangkok Thais can fly to Chiang Mai or Chiang Rai for 600 baht, bring a tent, go to Phu Chee Faa and enjoy everything the country has to offer. With the exposure hilltribe people get on TV and through meeting holidaying Thais, I think the worst of the fear (and some of the prejudice) is behind us.

Also... The nicest Bangkok people you meet are those you meet while holidaying in Chiang Mai... I think you will probably agree that many 'big city' Thais are less friendly normally than out where you live, but this seems to change when they get into a rented mini van, the womenfolk put on those silly thiow-hats and drive up to pretty much where you live.

Not too many years ago the Lonely Planet author was boasting that many Thais were using his guide simply because there were no good Thai language guides. That may have been true at the time, but again these days there's a lot of good Thai books on holidaying in Thailand. And web sites, of course.

Cheers,

Chanchao

Edited May 31, 2004 by chanchao

[chanchao]

Oh yes, and any friends/collegues that you want to invite over, you just have to drive them up there yourself, mentioning clean & cool air, beautiful nature, waterfalls. Don't dwell on the 'sleeping in a bamboo hiltribe shack with pigs & chickens below' too much. And the road to your place is now a very nice, safe (?) paved road too.. (Wonder if paved is really safer as it just means people drive faster... Dirt road is actually probably safer.)

Anyway, remember, camping, hiking & nature is an 'in' fashionable thing to do these days for young, active middle class poeple. And even a bamboo shack is a lot more comfortable than a tent...

[KevinN]

CHANCHOU;;Thanks very much for your most welcome reply, I am not above taking advise and being told when I am wrong,and I do know that my wife is not up to speed on all things,she has her own ideas and it has been a long time since she graduated from univ.even tho she had returned a few years ago to get her advanced degree.

and like most farang I can only know what I have read from others or to my own experience,,thanks again.

But the only hill tribes I have been around was years ago and they were the montnards[sp] in the hills of Viet Nam, and were not well recieved by the Viets.

And I have also heard that the HMOUNG[sp] of the ISAN area were here before anyone else. and that the Thai have only been here for 700 years.And that most hill tribes have been here before the Thai and have just moved around the high country without regards to borders.

[Limbo]

If this is the case then Thailand should divide themselves up in sections like it is in one country formerly Yugoslavia. There you have the Serbs, the Croatians, Slovenia. All of this in one supposed territory each running their own respective section and governments.

Yes Dave, logically you are absolutely right. And in that sense I fully agree with you. But history learns us that history isn't logical. The only thing history learns us that the human kind doesn't learn anything of history (Hegel? Heidegger?).

Waclav Havel, a poet, intellectual and chessplayer who spend many years in jail in communist Tjechie-Slowakia, gave in to the wish for independence of a small former communist elite of Slowakia controlling the natural resources of that part of the country.

He is the only statesman I know who avoided a civil war by giving in.

And it was to the benefit of Tjechia, go and have a look in Prague and you will love it. The Slowakian mines lost their importance in the mean time.

Dr. Taksin Shinawatra cannot do the same thing concerning the former sultanates in the south. The British were not able -at that time- to place the three southern provinces under Malaysian rule. The three provinces became a buffert zone 'in case of' and still are. Many people died and still have to die.

Field Marchal Joseph Tito was able to unite 'Yugo-Slavia' because of the united battle against the occupation by the German Chancellor Mr. Hitler's armies. It didn't last. At the moment the President of the United States, Mr. Bush, is uniting the Sunni's, the Sjihits and the Kurds against him in Iraq. But will Mr. Bush in the long run succeed where Mr. Hitler failed? History will learn us.

It is unbelievable that in an epoque of globalisation the localisation takes so many lives. I agree with you: Give them their own flags, national anthems en let them have their own parades a couple of times a year. Oh, and different colours of their passports of course, that seems to be extremely important as well. And automatically they will get their own national soccer-teams to spur their local own identity.

Thanks for your thoughts!