Buying a condo in Thai quota and changing it to foreign quota?

[LukKrueng]

2 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

In April the Juristic of the Base in Pattaya issued a letter to residents saying the foreign quota had exceeded 49%, this means foreign will have to sell as thai until the 49% is reached. This means those selling will lose money

But still - nobody's ownership was or will be revoked. And selling to a Thai doesn't mean losing money. There is a misconception that a foreign ratio's unit worth more than a Thai ratio's unit. But there is no such thing as a foreign/Thai ratio's unit - and that was the original question of the OP.

[LukKrueng]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

I know of some cases where the ratio document from the JPM was a complete forgery, right down to the signature, and that wasnt even the JPM's fault.

That's a totally different issue and has nothing to do with the original question on this thread about moving a unit from 1 quota to another nor with the rightful ownership of a condo. There are many cases of forged title deeds, forged car/bike registration books and so on. Those are criminal cases 

[scubascuba3]

selling to a Thai doesn't mean losing money. There is a misconception that a foreign ratio's unit worth more than a Thai ratio's unit.

It's a demand and supply thing, I've often seen foreign quota condos for sale at higher prices than thai quota

[KittenKong]

10 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

It's a demand and supply thing, I've often seen foreign quota condos for sale at higher prices than thai quota

Yes, in buildings that are popular with farangs there is often a premium for farang-name units. It doesnt apply in buildings in which the farang ratio is much less than 49% of course as any farang can buy any unit in such a building.

 

It is indeed entirely down to supply and demand, and it often applies to new builds also but only in areas and building that are popular with farangs. From what I've seen of Bangkok it is not a common issue there, but it certainly is in Pattaya.

Edited May 31, 2019 by KittenKong

[KittenKong]

44 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

That's a totally different issue and has nothing to do with the original question on this thread about moving a unit from 1 quota to another nor with the rightful ownership of a condo. There are many cases of forged title deeds, forged car/bike registration books and so on. Those are criminal cases 

It is relevant in as much as you were saying that as long as you have a ratio document from the JPM then there will be no problems. This is not necessarily so. If you have the misfortune to buy a unit in farang name and a forged or inaccurate document is used to confirm this then you may indeed find yourself unable to sell your unit on at its full value later.

 

The best bet for a farang is to only buy a unit that is currently owned by a farang and which has that farang's name on the chanote, and that is relevant to the original question. But even that is not a 100% guarantee that the ratio document is accurate or even real.

[LukKrueng]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

It is relevant in as much as you were saying that as long as you have a ratio document from the JPM then there will be no problems. This is not necessarily so. If you have the misfortune to buy a unit in farang name and a forged or inaccurate document is used to confirm this then you may indeed find yourself unable to sell your unit on at its full value later.

 

The best bet for a farang is to only buy a unit that is currently owned by a farang and which has that farang's name on the chanote, and that is relevant to the original question. But even that is not a 100% guarantee that the ratio document is accurate or even real.

Scenario 1 Legit:

You get a legitimate letter from the condo management saying the unit is free of debt (to the building, nothing to do with mortgage) and the ration of Thai/foreign ownership AT THIS POINT IN TIME is foreign </= 49% (ie this specific date on which this letter is printed and signed by the authorized person of the JPM).

You take this letter (with all other documents you need) to the land office, pay the transfer fee (doesn't matter if the buyer, seller or some nice person you found on the street makes the payment as long as it is done) and you get your name registered on the chanot and congratulations - you are the LEGAL owner of this condo unit.

 

Scenario 2 Fraud:

You get a FAKE letter from the condo management, or a forged letter, or forged signature by a non authorized person, or the person who presents himself as the owner is not the real owner but somehow got his hands on the original chanot and somehow can identify himself as the owner at the land department and forge the owner's signature on the buy/sell agreement ....

or basically other way which is NOT LEGIT, and somehow you manage to get your name registered on the chanot using any forged document or through any fraud - well, you are NOT the LEGAL owner of that unit

 

All my comments on this thread are about the LEGIT and LEGAL ownership of a condo unit and the main points were:

1. There is no such thing as quota designation for any unit.

2. A foreign owner can sell to a foreign buyer (as long as at the time of sale the ration of Thai/foreign owners is 51/49%) or a Thai buyer

3. A Thai owner can sell to a Thai buyer or a foreign buyer (as long as at the time of sale the ration of Thai/foreign owners is 51/49%)

4. There is no different pricing for Thais or Foreigners. ** as some others have pointed out the price is a market price based on supply of units / demand by foreigners - I won't get into that **

5. If the transaction of ownership was LEGIT there is no way to revoke the ownership of the foreign owner

** Reply #27 shows an example of a building in which the total ownership by foreigners exceeded the allowed 49%.  Reply #28 explains how this could be.

**Reply #27 also shows a photo of the official announcement by the building management about the ratio situation. on the announcement it states the following:

- Thai citizens may transfer ownership to another Thai citizen

- Thai citizen MAY NOT transfer ownership to a foreigner

- Foreign citizen transferring ownership to another foreign citizen may be UNDER CONSIDERATION from the land department << and that makes your argument of "farang buying only from farang" irrelevant as there might be cases that a farang won't be able to sell to a farang

 

And let me just state this once again:

All my comments on this thread are about the LEGIT and LEGAL ownership of a condo

[ThomasThBKK]

A simple MISTAKE can turn your whole process into being NOT LEGIT.

 

Quote

 If the transaction of ownership was LEGIT there is no way to revoke the ownership of the foreign owner

 

Not true. if the TRANSACTION BEFORE that were fraudulent you can also lose your ownership. That's why it's so crucial to check the whole chanote and building history.

[scubascuba3]

A Thai owner can sell to a Thai buyer or a foreign buyer (as long as at the time of sale the ration of Thai/foreign owners is 51/49%)

Can't be right, If a thai owner sold to a foreign buyer it would now be more than 49%.

You don't mention the FET requirement for a foreign buyer

[LukKrueng]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

 

 

Can't be right, If a thai owner sold to a foreign buyer it would now be more than 49%.

You don't mention the FET requirement for a foreign buyer
 

 

Are you trying to pick on words now? OK, just for you let me rephrase it:

as long as at the time of sale the ratio of Thai/foreign owners is 51/49% AFTER THAT SALE

Works for you now?

As this thread is about Thai/foreign quota and not about how to buy a condo or what documents needed, all I am talking about in all my replies is about this. However, in this same reply you quoted from I did write: with all other documents you need

[LukKrueng]

3 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

A simple MISTAKE can turn your whole process into being NOT LEGIT.

 

 

Not true. if the TRANSACTION BEFORE that were fraudulent you can also lose your ownership. That's why it's so crucial to check the whole chanote and building history.

So I'll ask the same question again - have you ever heard of anyone whose ownership was revoked ??

And as for check the whole chanote and building history - have you ever tried to ask for full history of a building from either the land department OR the building management? 

[ThomasThBKK]

8 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

So I'll ask the same question again - have you ever heard of anyone whose ownership was revoked ??

And as for check the whole chanote and building history - have you ever tried to ask for full history of a building from either the land department OR the building management? 

Yes, i did.

 

 

And yes, i do that all the time whenever i buy property.

 

 

 

[LukKrueng]

18 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Yes, i did.

 

 

And yes, i do that all the time whenever i buy property.

 

 

 

Could you please elaborate? 

Did you get it from the land department or from the JPM? Did you have copies or serial numbers of all chanots of the building?

How many way points in time did you get? Current status + 1/5/10/15 years in the past?

[ThomasThBKK]

You need to go to the land office and request them, they usually dislike foreigners tho except in Bangkok.

In Chiang mai and co i had to hire a local lawyer to get copies, bangkok lawyer was refused, we all know why.

They can make you copies for the whole history of the chanote, not limited to certain timeframes.

 

Sometimes they just give it out, sometimes they ask the current owner if its ok. I am not sure if there are any laws governing this or if it's just case by case.

They can also provide info on adjacent plots that are related to the your own.

 

There's no real rules to do all this, it's more like detective work without any clear guidance on what to look for... it's can be quite frustarting.

 

 

There are many things to look for:

- if its owned a thai-farrang husband and wife couple, make sure that the farrang husband signed the document that his own wifes money was used, especially if its about land. If that isn't signed the husband has a claim to half the value of the land and could go after the new owner too (-.-). 

- If a chanote has been gifted before, that can be a serious issue too as by law gifts/donations can be revoked if the counterparty defames you etc. Make sure theres no retransfer right registed on the deed. (section 522 CCC)

- If there's no public road, make sure somehow there are servitudes that give you right of passage or your are SOL and cut off from your own land.

 

Example list of documents i got for one due diligence: 

- Certificate of utilization (nor sor 3 kor ) issued 19xx

- Land examination certificate issued 19xx

- certificate of the owner of connected land area and neighbor land, TorDor34

- Affidavit (TorDor 16)

- Title deed No. XX

- Request form tordor9 (subdivision)

- Application form Tor Dor 1 (registration of title and juristic act and land title examination blabla)

- Copy of Gift agreement, certified

- memorandum of servitude

 

 

 

It's usually that land starts with a Nor Sor 3, thats not really a ownership, its just a utlization right - the land has not been exactly measured at this point.

Magically the land office has no prior documentation, and that's quite often the case.

 

Then the "owner" starts an upgrade process to Nor Sor 3, this is sucessfull if no neighbour rejects it and claims otherwise, at this point the land is measured and it's nearly as good as a Chanote (Nor Sor 4). Chanote is GPS measured with clear boundaries, had the case that my boundary stones got lost and had to get them replaced, have fun doing that with Nor Sor 3 if your neighbour is a <deleted>.

Upgrading to Chanote title takes time often, can take years...

 

 

It's quite hard to make sense of all these documents, i don't think i would have been able to without a lawyer here, especially without speaking thai.

 

 

 

 

 

And to come back to that other point, where a chanote was revoked later on. 

That was a family case where one of the heiress faked the will of the dead person, took many many years to get that through in court (5 i think).

He sold the land as, he gained access to it using the fake will - rest of the family went to court.

I am not sure how the damage of the buyer played into it and if he got fully refunded from the seller.

 

If this is for a condo specifically you would look into who owned the land before and if all the upgrade processes worked are clean. Then you check the building and zoning laws and make sure the condo building is compliant. Make sure the chanote of the condo is also correct... 

 

 

Imo as a private buyer without lawyer you are kinda screwed here doing al that. 

Edited May 31, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[LukKrueng]

29 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

You need to go to the land office and request them, they usually dislike foreigners tho except in Bangkok.

In Chiang mai and co i had to hire a local lawyer to get copies, bangkok lawyer was refused, we all know why.

They can make you copies for the whole history of the chanote, not limited to certain timeframes.

 

Sometimes they just give it out, sometimes they ask the current owner if its ok. I am not sure if there are any laws governing this or if it's just case by case.

They can also provide info on adjacent plots that are related to the your own.

 

There's no real rules to do all this, it's more like detective work without any clear guidance on what to look for... it's can be quite frustarting.

 

 

There are many things to look for:

- if its owned a thai-farrang husband and wife couple, make sure that the farrang husband signed the document that his own wifes money was used, especially if its about land. If that isn't signed the husband has a claim to half the value of the land and could go after the new owner too (-.-). 

- If a chanote has been gifted before, that can be a serious issue too as by law gifts/donations can be revoked if the counterparty defames you etc. Make sure theres no retransfer right registed on the deed. (section 522 CCC)

- If there's no public road, make sure somehow there are servitudes that give you right of passage or your are SOL and cut off from your own land.

 

Example list of documents i got for one due diligence: 

- Certificate of utilization (nor sor 3 kor ) issued 19xx

- Land examination certificate issued 19xx

- certificate of the owner of connected land area and neighbor land, TorDor34

- Affidavit (TorDor 16)

- Title deed No. XX

- Request form tordor9 (subdivision)

- Application form Tor Dor 1 (registration of title and juristic act and land title examination blabla)

- Copy of Gift agreement, certified

- memorandum of servitude

 

 

 

It's usually that land starts with a Nor Sor 3, thats not really a ownership, its just a utlization right - the land has not been exactly measured at this point.

Magically the land office has no prior documentation, and that's quite often the case.

 

Then the "owner" starts an upgrade process to Nor Sor 3, this is sucessfull if no neighbour rejects it and claims otherwise, at this point the land is measured and it's nearly as good as a Chanote (Nor Sor 4). Chanote is GPS measured with clear boundaries, had the case that my boundary stones got lost and had to get them replaced, have fun doing that with Nor Sor 3 if your neighbour is a <deleted>.

Upgrading to Chanote title takes time often, can take years...

 

 

It's quite hard to make sense of all these documents, i don't think i would have been able to without a lawyer here, especially without speaking thai.

 

 

 

 

 

And to come back to that other point, where a chanote was revoked later on. 

That was a family case where one of the heiress faked the will of the dead person, took many many years to get that through in court (5 i think).

He sold the land as, he gained access to it using the fake will - rest of the family went to court.

I am not sure how the damage of the buyer played into it and if he got fully refunded from the seller.

What you are writing about is plots of land, not a complete building (and this thread is about condo units and Thai / foreign quota...).

If you have a copy of a chanot or even just the serial No of one, yes, you can go to the land department and ask to see their copy of it. And yes, adjacent plots are marked on the one in question so can look at those as well. However, on a condo's chanot there are no listings of the adjacent units, so having 1 number won't lead you to the next, thus asking to see all chanots of a complete building is not possible.

Also, N.S.3 and any other lesser type of ownership exists ONLY for plots of land, not for condo units.

 

And the last point you brought up is a fraud case. Let me remind you again what I have stated many times: All my comments on this thread are about the LEGIT and LEGAL ownership of a condo

And since that seems not clear enough for some people I'll add simply: I do not talk about scams, fraud or any other illegal activity on the property, in the property and during the process of buying/selling/transferring ownership of a property.

 

So again:

1. Did you ever get a history of a complete condominium building (NOT just 1 unit, not a plot of land, but for each and every unit in a COMPLETE CONDOMINIUM BUILDING)?

2. Have you ever heard of anyone who's ownership was revoked where there was no scams, fraud or any other illegal activity on the property, in the property and during the process of buying/selling/transferring ownership of a property?

 

Edit to add:

There is no need for a lawyer to get any type of information from the land department. Anyone can just walk into the office with a copy or a serial No. of the chanot and ask to see the physical copy held on location

Edited May 31, 2019 by LukKrueng

[ThomasThBKK]

11 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

What you are writing about is plots of land, not a complete building (and this thread is about condo units and Thai / foreign quota...).

If you have a copy of a chanot or even just the serial No of one, yes, you can go to the land department and ask to see their copy of it. And yes, adjacent plots are marked on the one in question so can look at those as well. However, on a condo's chanot there are no listings of the adjacent units, so having 1 number won't lead you to the next, thus asking to see all chanots of a complete building is not possible.

Also, N.S.3 and any other lesser type of ownership exists ONLY for plots of land, not for condo units.

 

And the last point you brought up is a fraud case. Let me remind you again what I have stated many times: All my comments on this thread are about the LEGIT and LEGAL ownership of a condo

And since that seems not clear enough for some people I'll add simply: I do not talk about scams, fraud or any other illegal activity on the property, in the property and during the process of buying/selling/transferring ownership of a property.

 

So again:

1. Did you ever get a history of a complete condominium building (NOT just 1 unit, not a plot of land, but for each and every unit in a COMPLETE CONDOMINIUM BUILDING)?

2. Have you ever heard of anyone who's ownership was revoked where there was no scams, fraud or any other illegal activity on the property, in the property and during the process of buying/selling/transferring ownership of a property?

 

Edit to add:

There is no need for a lawyer to get any type of information from the land department. Anyone can just walk into the office with a copy or a serial No. of the chanot and ask to see the physical copy held on location

 

There's no way to make sure no fraud is involved without doing proper due diligence which also includes the Chanote of the plot of land the Condo is on and the history of it, including building permits etc. jeez. 

 

If you know everything is legit, why would u even bother researching, but you don't, your sentence just doesn't make sense.

 

There are enough cases people bought something that got revoked later, because the developers <deleted> up.

https://www.duensingkippen.com/thailandpropertylawblog/?p=135 Woops, and it's gone.

http://true-beachfront.com/guide/phuket-property-law-court-verdict-august-2017-hits-hotels-condos

 

And yes, in most regional areas you need a lawyer, they don't give you anything without their usual tmoney, fact of life in thailand. You must live in a different Thailand as the rest of us.

 

 

Obviously if everything is perfect no one will lose his title deed, what kind of statement is that even. Saying that once he has the chanot in his name he's safe for life is a factually wrong statement and thats why dozens of people here pointed it out.