Brexit: Irish PM says no backstop as bad for Ireland as no deal

[Pilotman]

37 minutes ago, billd766 said:

You are making an assumption that BOTH Eire and Northern Ireland even want to join together.

 

Just suppose that one side says yes and the other says no. What do you do then?

I wouldn't give them that particular choice.  I would leave the EU and then if they don't like the ensuring 'hard border', tough luck. If this resulted in violence in the North, then they are bigger idiots than they have appeared to be in the recent past, which is saying something. I would then walk away in terms of grants, budget allocation and political assistance.   What I would never do again is use the Military, We had enough of that earlier.   

[khunken]

42 minutes ago, billd766 said:

You are making an assumption that BOTH Eire and Northern Ireland even want to join together.

 

Just suppose that one side says yes and the other says no. What do you do then?

You don't do it.

As an Irishman I have a feeling that the positions of the south & north have reversed in recent years. The north probably now has a majority for a united Ireland while those in the south like the idea but would vote against on the grounds that the south couldn't afford the cost.

[billd766]

30 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

The EU does not want a backdoor for the UK via the Irish Republic. The Irish Republic AND Northern Ireland want to  keep an open soft border.

I don't know what percentage of Northern Island voters voted in the the trick question referendum but if  in a significant minority perhaps they should be given leave to leave the UK? Problem then might be Scotland  would  demand  the same !????????

It wasn't a trick question. It was a simple Leave or Remain question.

 

Could it have been worded differently? Of course it could, it was badly thought out and hurriedly put together know that the answer would be remain. David Dameron, the cabinet at the time and parliament as a whole were stunned by the Leave vote and had little idea what to do next.

 

DC resigned/fell on his sword/ or simply jumped ship first from being PM and then from politics.

 

IMHO I believe that when the results came in and Leave had won DC and the cabinet must have thought "Sh1t, I wish we hadn't done that. Now what do we do as the genie os out of the bottle."

[billd766]

28 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

You got me wrong: I was referring to the backstop and a way of solution. As it is evident that the Republic will stay in EU the majority of NI is likely to join EU, means reunite with the other part. 

And I gave you the example of Germany. It was not explicit the wish of all Germans to reunite but the decisions of responsible politicians even between West and East. Unfortunately there is a lack of responsible politicians in UK who like to SERVE and not using the country for their ego and own career. 

The problem in reuniting both parts of Ireland is what to do about the hard core who don't want to join the south, or even those in the south who don't want the north to join?

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

The problem in reuniting both parts of Ireland is what to do about the hard core who don't want to join the south, or even those in the south who don't want the north to join?

I thought the majority had the unquestionable right to override the wishes of the minority?

 

We can't have the wishes of the minority taken into account, that would just not do. 

[Dumbastheycome]

51 minutes ago, billd766 said:

It wasn't a trick question. It was a simple Leave or Remain question.

 

Could it have been worded differently? Of course it could, it was badly thought out and hurriedly put together know that the answer would be remain. David Dameron, the cabinet at the time and parliament as a whole were stunned by the Leave vote and had little idea what to do next.

 

DC resigned/fell on his sword/ or simply jumped ship first from being PM and then from politics.

 

IMHO I believe that when the results came in and Leave had won DC and the cabinet must have thought "Sh1t, I wish we hadn't done that. Now what do we do as the genie os out of the bottle."

Ok. Maybe "trick question" is inaccurate. But as a question that now so many declare was "binding" that question was simplistic in appeal to the uninformed as to implications .

That now after such protracted attempts in accomplishing an outcome based on a dubious "principle" of democratic process there continues the deceptive attenuation  of those implications.

A public referendum is normally considered to be a measure of support or otherwise to a defined legislative proposal rather than a "concept" on which to form a legislative proposal.

There is the trick of it .

In light of the debacle in pursuing an original simplistic  concept there is  valid cause to consider another public referendum to confirm or  not  the same question based on a much greater although polarized yet more informed and aware constituency. That would be  democracy.

It may be true that the  original referendum  was taken as a sop to a vocal lobby without the expectation that occurred. Now the  s$it is  seeping through the corridors of power and nobody has called a plumber!

 

[Dumbastheycome]

Current  general financial  market opinion which acknowledges Johnston as front runner predicts a negative impact on the  UK  currency.

For a lesser favoured  Hunt the financial  outlook opinion is positive.

An aside  complication of course is the antics  from the illustrious  Mr  Trump dismantling any vestige of stability in almost every global  sector with his historical prowess in turning gold into lead !

 

[AlexRich]

Brexit wasn’t a vote for a new and vibrant UK, it was a vote for the break up of the UK ... Scotland and NI ... who will both scoop up all the foreign direct investment that the UK is losing.

 

Well done chaps ... taking back control. You know it makes sense Rodney!

[sawadee1947]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

The problem in reuniting both parts of Ireland is what to do about the hard core who don't want to join the south, or even those in the south who don't want the north to join?

IT is just done on govt level. 

[Pique Dard]

brexit was, is and will remain a false good solution

[billd766]

2 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

Ok. Maybe "trick question" is inaccurate. But as a question that now so many declare was "binding" that question was simplistic in appeal to the uninformed as to implications .

That now after such protracted attempts in accomplishing an outcome based on a dubious "principle" of democratic process there continues the deceptive attenuation  of those implications.

A public referendum is normally considered to be a measure of support or otherwise to a defined legislative proposal rather than a "concept" on which to form a legislative proposal.

There is the trick of it .

In light of the debacle in pursuing an original simplistic  concept there is  valid cause to consider another public referendum to confirm or  not  the same question based on a much greater although polarized yet more informed and aware constituency. That would be  democracy.

It may be true that the  original referendum  was taken as a sop to a vocal lobby without the expectation that occurred. Now the  s$it is  seeping through the corridors of power and nobody has called a plumber!

 

To be fair, why not finish the first referendum before opening up for a second referendum in 3, 4, 5 years time.

 

Ifg they want to ignore the result of the first referendum they should also ignore the result of another one. If Remain win the second referendum it is only fair to have the best of 3, 5, 7 or however many it takes to get a majority vote.

 

Meanwhile the UK is paying for every referendum and the EU will not wait for ever for a decision.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

The problem in reuniting both parts of Ireland is what to do about the hard core who don't want to join the south, or even those in the south who don't want the north to join?

Chomper is confused once again.

 

Please don't just click on the emoji.

 

If you are confused then say WHY you are confused and perhaps I/we can help you out.

[billd766]

46 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

IT is just done on govt level. 

As usual you expect the government to step in and ignore the voting public.

 

Try to remember that the government is only elected by the people and the government SHOULD spend more time listening to the people rather than believing that they know better.

[billd766]

47 minutes ago, Pique Dard said:

brexit was, is and will remain a false good solution

Says who?

[elliss]

8 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Yes but the UK doesn't want Ireland as we took the best bits years ago.

 

  What were the best bits?. 

[sawadee1947]

15 minutes ago, billd766 said:

As usual you expect the government to step in and ignore the voting public.

 

Try to remember that the government is only elected by the people and the government SHOULD spend more time listening to the people rather than believing that they know better.

Well, then why not a new referendum in the Republic AND Ni. 

In these days it's the opportunity for a historical fundamental decision: reunification and being together in a strong block (EU) 

[khunken]

34 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

Well, then why not a new referendum in the Republic AND Ni. 

In these days it's the opportunity for a historical fundamental decision: reunification and being together in a strong block (EU) 

Yes - for the future. But that's not a solution to the Brexit mess in the UK as (A) it would take forever for the UK & Ireland to agree on it (with the usual DUP veto) & (B), if both don't agree then we're back to square one.

[sawadee1947]

1 hour ago, khunken said:

Yes - for the future. But that's not a solution to the Brexit mess in the UK as (A) it would take forever for the UK & Ireland to agree on it (with the usual DUP veto) & (B), if both don't agree then we're back to square one.

That is one of possible hypothesis but in the case of Germany with two political systems even it didn't take long. 

Old proverb: if you not try you wouldn't win. 

Don't forget that we have an existential crisis in UK. A better time for a solution (here backstop) will hardly come for the Republic. 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

12 hours ago, khunken said:

Once again you demonstrate your clueless attitude & lack of knowledge of Ireland.

Britain kept the 6 counties of N, Ireland, not because they were the 'best bits' but the bits where the Britain-supporting settlers were in the majority.

That's why they were the best bits. Loyal to the crown.

 

https://alphahistory.com/northernireland/partition-of-ireland/

 

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, khunken said:

You don't do it.

As an Irishman I have a feeling that the positions of the south & north have reversed in recent years. The north probably now has a majority for a united Ireland while those in the south like the idea but would vote against on the grounds that the south couldn't afford the cost.

My friend from Belfast voiced the same opinion regarding the north some time ago. He was however of the opinion the south would go along with it. I would think that the EU would be more than happy to meet the funding, after all they have been funding the GFA for the last 20 years and that would no longer be necessary.

In his view the greatest impediment to the referendum was the risk of reprisal from the hard core nationalists but the greater the brexit mess becomes the smaller the risk may become. In this case time could be quite beneficial.

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, sammieuk1 said:

The whole land border in Ireland has been never been thought out in this fever to leave to get to the promised land ????

There are some on this forum that would categorically deny that was the case.

[brucec64]

leave first then make a deal

Yawn. This nonsense meme gets posted 3 times a day. Originaliy is not really a Brexiter strength.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[sawadee1947]

17 hours ago, khunken said:

You don't do it.

As an Irishman I have a feeling that the positions of the south & north have reversed in recent years. The north probably now has a majority for a united Ireland while those in the south like the idea but would vote against on the grounds that the south couldn't afford the cost.

I doubt it. My experience (Limerick) shows that our Republic is ready for a reunification. The EU will be ready to support just to solve the backstop problem. Varadkar should do that step and approach EU and NI.

[billd766]

13 hours ago, sawadee1947 said:

Well, then why not a new referendum in the Republic AND Ni. 

In these days it's the opportunity for a historical fundamental decision: reunification and being together in a strong block (EU) 

IMHO that is a good idea, but can we get the Brexit referendum over and done with first. If we don't finish off referendums and simply go to the next one in turn then nothing will ever get completed.

 

As for the referendum on Eire and NI to do that we would need to coordinate NI first to see how they feel and if that works the UK has to get together with Eire ti see how they feel about it.

 

IF all sides are in agreement, then all sides will have to agree on the format of the words to be used and what the pass/fail % should be. Only then can the question be asked. The 450 kg gorilla sitting in the corner is called the EU as they will want to be in on the act too.

 

I think that there will be a 4 way match between the UK, NI, Eire and the EU, unless the EU stops it by saying there has to be an agreement between ALL members of the EU.

 

What will happen to the people of NI who will vote against the referendum, if the vote is for reunification?

 

It will be a bit like a lottery and I have no luck with those either.