Thai Immigration/a "learning curve" in effect?

[swissie]

Not much doubt. Most Expats in Thailand give the more stringent Immigration-Rules little applause. Expats being affected far more than 3-week Tourists.
- Could it be, that Thai Authorities have been monitoring Immigration to Western Europe/US closely? Resulting in a "learning curve"? Finding, that it is better to control Immigration in time before the erection of a wall and a "Brexit-Vote" remains the only mean to contain (limit) Immigration?

If this (and not the much quoted "Thai Xenophobia") should be the logic behind the more stringent Immi-Rules concerning Expats, possibly Expats should show some sort of "understanding". Not necessarily approval, but a moderate amount of "understanding" might be in order.

I myself can muster a fair deal of "understanding" with regard to the more stringent Immi-Rules in Thailand. The fact, that almost 25% of the population in my home country consists of Immigrants, (a good part of them having entered the country under doubious circumstances), may have something to do with it.

[ThomasThBKK]

Longterm expats are already screened or they wouldn't have gotten their visas.

I don't see any point in these rubbish tm30/tm28 and 90 day reports.

 

Most here are annoyed as nothing here makes sense and not because the visa hurdles are hard to master, it's the annoyances you still have even with a visa.

 

For me this is all just surveilance.

 

If people who don't meet the longterm requirements want to stay here they will just ignore all those bs rules, enter on a tourist visa and hide out -.-

The ones who come and go very often are for sure not the ones who have something to hide...

Edited June 16, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[Swedenlars]

Not much doubt. Most Expats in Thailand give the more stringent Immigration-Rules little applause. Expats being affected far more than 3-week Tourists.
- Could it be, that Thai Authorities have been monitoring Immigration to Western Europe/US closely? Resulting in a "learning curve"? Finding, that it is better to control Immigration in time before the erection of a wall and a "Brexit-Vote" remains the only mean to contain (limit) Immigration?

If this (and not the much quoted "Thai Xenophobia") should be the logic behind the more stringent Immi-Rules concerning Expats, possibly Expats should show some sort of "understanding". Not necessarily approval, but a moderate amount of "understanding" might be in order.

I myself can muster a fair deal of "understanding" with regard to the more stringent Immi-Rules in Thailand. The fact, that almost 25% of the population in my home country consists of Immigrants, (a good part of them having entered the country under doubious circumstances), may have something to do with it.

I think you don't really get it. You can not compare the 25 % immigrants of Switzerland with the expats in Thailand. An expat in Thailand is not allowed to work, is spending money and also must show he has enough as well, he has zero benefits from the Thai social system (if there is any...), he is not allowed to own property, he must have his own insurance etc..In other words, no money no honey. In Switzerland and for that matter in Europe, no money a lot of honey. Look at the asylum seekers in Europe. We even send ships to the mediterranean sea to pick them up. This just aside. The 25 % you are talking about in Switzerland and other countries in Europe are mostly working and yes, they will change our culture and future history. An expat in Thailand on the other hand will change zero of the Thai society. They only want our money. So no worrries. Thailand will never make our mistakes. Thailand first. Always.

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[CLS]

Switzerland has 25% of foreigners plus 15-20% of naturalized foreigners. But Switzerland is booming, has high quality of life, stable government, good education, high wages, low taxes, good social security and long life expectancy. None of that applies to Thailand. Foreigners can contribute to a country‘s prosperity, but Thais will never learn that.


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[blackcab]

1 hour ago, Swedenlars said:

An expat in Thailand is not allowed to work...

 

An expat in Thailand is not allowed to work without permission.

[Airalee]

When I read the title, I (mistakenly) thought that we were going to be discussing the new immigration policies and the learning curve needed to realize that the TM30 rule, especially, is absolutely ridiculous.  Those that come on retirement visas have been thoroughly vetted with health certifications, criminal background checks and proof of finances.  Most that meet these requirements and have gone that route are harmless.  Why does the government need to know where we are sleeping every night?

 

As ThomasThBkk says above, this feels like surveillance of the “good guys” and the “bad guys” are just gonna sneak in on a tourist visa and disappear.

 

When we read the stories of “criminal” roundups by immigration, how many of those arrested do you think are here on anything but a tourist visa (if they even have a visa)?  How many of the news stories about the unsavory farangs (yes...plenty of those here) invlve retirees on a non-o?

 

”Good guys in, bad guys out” has turned into “Good guys under surveillance, bad guys given the keys to the kingdom”

[Puchaiyank]

It is an expat's "understanding" of Thai immigration that gives him pause for concern...The expat here understands that the requirements for a retirement visa extension varies from office to office...officer to officer...day to day...month to month and year to year...

 

It is expat's understanding of the system that concerns him...????

[MiNombreEsFicticious]

2 hours ago, swissie said:

- Could it be, that Thai Authorities have been monitoring Immigration to Western Europe/US closely

The one thing that Thai Authorities and Thai people absolutely do without fail is ignore the entire rest of the world. What is there to be gained by the most superior country on Earth (Thailand) studying what other (lesser) countries occupied by inferior (farang types and worse) humans are doing? Surely, you jest, OP?

[CharlieH]

The learning curve is rules for the sake of rules, the more obstacles placed the more inginuity used and likely hood that people will pay to bypass them. That's why there is no consistency anywhere, just varying degrees of greed. It's not the red tape it's the amount of grease required.

The main paperwork required is the folding kind, that's the goal and little else.(IMHO).

[Kwasaki]

10 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

The ones who come and go very often are for sure not the ones who have something to hide...

How do know that. ????

[Kwasaki]

8 hours ago, Airalee said:

Most that meet these requirements and have gone that route are harmless.  Why does the government need to know where we are sleeping every night?

Ridiculous is not the question,  Immigration as I would look into your first sentence word. " Most "

[Airalee]

6 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Ridiculous is not the question,  Immigration as I would look into your first sentence word. " Most "

In English please

[Rally123]

11 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

I don't see any point in these rubbish tm30/tm28 and 90 day reports.

 

Most here are annoyed as nothing here makes sense and not because the visa hurdles are hard to master, it's the annoyances you still have even with a visa.

 

For me this is all just surveilance.

 

Thai immigration are clever in that you go to them instead of them coming to you to be spied on. The ones that should be under surveillance are the ones the local police don't have on their books. Where I live the police come around every year and note where all farang are living. They take a photocopy of the farangs passport. They never check the visa as they wouldn't know what it looks like.

Now if immigration and police were to link up then...............        

[ThomasThBKK]

43 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

How do know that. ????

No one whos on the run will make a tm30 report and tell the cops his address, it's quite obvious...

[thaibeachlovers]

The OP need have little to fear from an invasion of expats from western countries, IMO.

In my experience, most expats of the retired and living with a Thai variety benefitted from the housing boom when they got divorced from the western wife, and from the excellent exchange rate of the early century. Now the exchange rate is possibly lower than in the 90s and inflation has made housing etc in LOS sooooooo much more expensive, it goes against a divorcee having the funds to set up again in LOS, IMO.

Edited June 17, 2019 by thaibeachlovers

[RLAretired]

12 hours ago, swissie said:

Could it be, that Thai Authorities have been monitoring Immigration to Western Europe/US closely?

 

Valuable analysis.  Thank you, @swissie for those observations.

[RLAretired]

9 hours ago, Airalee said:

”Good guys in, bad guys out” has turned into “Good guys under surveillance, bad guys given the keys to the kingdom”

 

@Airalee, very interesting comment.  Would you please say more about that.

[Kwasaki]

51 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

No one whos on the run will make a tm30 report and tell the cops his address, it's quite obvious...

I don't think you understand I go anywhere in Thailand have been all over and never made a TM 30, I not on the run. 

[ThomasThBKK]

15 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

I don't think you understand I go anywhere in Thailand have been all over and never made a TM 30, I not on the run. 

You don't understand. First of all you imply the opposite of what i said and second the rules changed on the 28 March this year and are now in full effect, nothing you did in the past and was accepted is of any meaning anymore.

 

You can read about this new rules here (and everywhere on thaivisa too): https://www.dejudomlaw.com/asean-today-march-2019/

 

Quote

Notification of Residence TM 30
The Immigration Bureau at Chaengwattana announced new regulations regarding the Notification of Residence of Foreigners (TM30) that went into immediate effect on March 28, 2019. The Immigration Bureau uses the TM 30 as a mechanism to track and update the addresses of foreigners in Thailand. At this time, for persons who do not have an official receipt for the Notification of Residence of Foreigners (TM30), the Immigration Bureau at Chaengwattana will not provide the following services:
• All types of visa extension applications, both first-year and renewal applications
• 90-day reporting
• Multiple Re-entry Permits

For the Notification of Residence of Foreigners (TM30), the owner of the house, the lessor, or the owner of the hotel or residence is responsible for notifying the Immigration Office in the concerned area within 24 hours from the time of the foreigner’s arrival. For failure to do so, the owner of the house, the lessor, or the owner of the hotel or residence shall be imposed a fine not exceeding Baht 10,000. Please see Section 38 below

Although the reporting process is the responsibility of the owner or lessor of the residence and foreigners are not liable, they must ensure that the Notification of Residence of Foreigners (TM30) has been completed. Otherwise, their applications will be declined or it may cause delays for their applications.

Starting March 28, 2019, all foreigners who plan to file the above applications at the Immigration Bureau at Chaengwattana must ensure that the owner or lessor of their residence has completed the notification process and properly filed the form TM 30 with the Immigration Bureau. Without the official TM30 receipt, any of the above applications filed by a foreigner will be rejected or delayed.

As of now, this Announcement is applicable and required by the Immigration Bureau at Chaengwattana Bangkok and the Provincial Immigration Offices in Samuthprakarn, Chonburi, and Nonthaburi Provinces. However, we see the possibility that these rules might be adopted by other Immigration Offices countrywide and at the One Stop Service Center.

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[Airalee]

1 hour ago, RLAretired said:

 

@Airalee, very interesting comment.  Would you please say more about that.

It is somewhat tongue in cheek, but what I’m getting at is that a “bad guy”...(let’s assume a criminal hiding out in Thailand)...most likely won’t be submitting to criminal background checks, financial, health etc. and will come in on a tourist visa or more likely a 30 day visa exempt (or whatever it’s called) where all he has to do is show 20k baht.  

 

Then...that bad guy will disappear into the woodwork...perhaps rent something under the table from some shady landlord (all those drug dealing Nigerians have to live somewhere right?)...and do whatever shady sh** he/she is gonna do until finally caught and we read about them on Thaivisa.  They’re invisible for the most part.  Even with all the regulations, it wouldn’t be so hard to “disappear” in Thailand.  The system makes it easy for the bad guys.

 

On the flip side, let’s look at an expat with provable finances (of an acceptable amount) who wants to retire here, live in Bangkok and take lots of trips around the country (HuaHin, Maehongson, CM, Wherever), injecting money (coming from outside the country...not gained by working illegally here as a “bad guy” might do) into the Thai economy.  That expat is paying rent on a condo and a hotel at the same time while traveling.  Eating in restaurants while traveling.  Buying clothes, electronics, seeing doctors (the “bad guy” on a dodgy visa certainly isn’t going to hand his passport over to a hospital) etc etc.

 

And for all that, every weekend trip will then necessitate a trip to Chaengwattana just to say that he’s home now.  It’s like having an overbearing, controlling parent.  If the system was streamlined...and I mean really streamlined....Without all the bullshit we are having to put up with now where the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing and the law itself is so vague that we have daily threads that do nothing but cause confusion, frustration and anxiety...then fine...no problem.

 

Sometimes I wish I could just walk into wherever the head of immigration has his office and just yell out...

 

“Hey you  #$*@ morons...get your shit together”

 

Currently, myself...I’m here for 2 months on a TV right now and because of all the hassle, this will be first time here that I won’t bother going anywhere and I’ll just hang out at home and in the local neighborhood because immigration has made it too much of a PITA to spend money here.

[Kwasaki]

32 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

You don't understand. First of all you imply the opposite of what i said and second the rules changed on the 28 March this year and are now in full effect, nothing you did in the past and was accepted is of any meaning anymore.

 

You can read about this new rules here (and everywhere on thaivisa too): https://www.dejudomlaw.com/asean-today-march-2019/

Thanks still fine it hard to understand.

Question :-

So my full time address is in Thailand, married and do 90 day report and 1 year marriage extension.

Scenario  1..   I go with wife from home to a hotel for a stay she gives her ID.

Scenario 2..  I go from home myself to a hotel for stay, give my Thai DL ID.

The hotel owner/staff have to do TM30 for me and I have ask for a receipt in both of these scenario's is that correct.?

 

What I do with the receipt.?

 

[Airalee]

17 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Thanks still fine it hard to understand.

Question :-

So my full time address is in Thailand, married and do 90 day report and 1 year marriage extension.

Scenario  1..   I go with wife from home to a hotel for a stay she gives her ID.

Scenario 2..  I go from home myself to a hotel for stay, give my Thai DL ID.

The hotel owner/staff have to do TM30 for me and I have ask for a receipt in both of these scenario's is that correct.?

 

What I do with the receipt.?

 

What do you do when checking into a hotel?  Do one of you hide in the bushes while the other checks in as a single occupant?  I have never once stayed in a hotel in Thailand where only one of us had to provide ID.

[Matzzon]

14 hours ago, swissie said:

Could it be, that Thai Authorities have been monitoring Immigration to Western Europe/US closely?

That would mean due dilligence. Nope, as far as I know, that´s impossible.

[KiChakayan]

14 hours ago, swissie said:

I myself can muster a fair deal of "understanding" with regard to the more stringent Immi-Rules in Thailand. The fact, that almost 25% of the population in my home country consists of Immigrants, (a good part of them having entered the country under doubious circumstances), may have something to do with it.

Must be a very large country. In France, probably the EU country with the largest number of immigrants they represent about 12% of the global population. There is indeed a larger number of French people who are issued from the immigration from Poland, Italy, Spain, Algeria and other African countries. Most of these people were needed and wanted and for most of them perfectly integrated, just like the Lord mayor of London..????

[aonangkrabi]

I think that immigration rules have not changed. What has changed is the policy change of some countries that refuse to give a certified income statement.

[RLAretired]

1 hour ago, ThomasThBKK said:

... must ensure that the owner or lessor of their residence has completed the notification process and properly filed the form TM 30 with the Immigration Bureau. Without the official TM30 receipt, any of the above applications filed by a foreigner will be rejected or delayed.

 

 

@ThomasThBKK. How can we find out if owner of residence actually has completed the notification -- BEFORE we go to do something at Immigration ??

 

[Airalee]

27 minutes ago, RLAretired said:

 

 

@ThomasThBKK. How can we find out if owner of residence actually has completed the notification -- BEFORE we go to do something at Immigration ??

 

I’m not Thomas...but, I doubt you can.   I guess it all depends on the trustworthiness of your landlord (if he is taking it upon him/herself to do the reporting).

 

 I just talked to my landlord about it yesterday via line chat.  His slow response, lack of knowledge about the law and apathetic attitude towards how big of an issue it is for expats led to me giving him my 30 day notice and subsequently heading down to the Juristic Persons office to explain that I’d like to rent a different condo in the building where the landlord is willing to work with me.

 

*Sorted!

 

 

 

 

 

 

*I hope

 

 

 

And I’m also seeing that rents are falling.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Airalee

[LukKrueng]

13 hours ago, Airalee said:

 the “bad guys” are just gonna sneak in on a tourist visa and disappear

tm30 is for every foreigner in Thailand, not just for long stayers. I agree that once you have a long term permit to stay it is reticulous to have to report every time you stay out of your home/return home

[Airalee]

3 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

tm30 is for every foreigner in Thailand, not just for long stayers. I agree that once you have a long term permit to stay it is reticulous to have to report every time you stay out of your home/return home

True...but someone on a holiday staying in hotels will never even know about tm30

[LukKrueng]

14 hours ago, CLS said:

Switzerland has 25% of foreigners plus 15-20% of naturalized foreigners. But Switzerland is booming, has high quality of life, stable government, good education, high wages, low taxes, good social security and long life expectancy. None of that applies to Thailand. Foreigners can contribute to a country‘s prosperity, but Thais will never learn that.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

that's one way of looking at it. Another way is that culture changes are not wanted by Thais and allowing foreigners to actually migrate to Thailand and naturalized and but lands might have a bad effect on Thai society, especially to the poorer people at the lower end of the social economical levels