Ireland warns British PM contenders against 'dumbing down' border issue

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

There are always two sides to a coin and two sides of an argument, which if a neutral observer offered an opinion, the truth would normally be somewhere in between.

 

This post is a typical one-sided opinion, and if it's switched to put the onus on the UK as the 'bad' guy in the negotiating treaty, there would be a whole different outlook.

 

IMO, both the UK and the EU take the blame for the WAG treaty outcome. 

Insert May for UK and you might be close.

[petemoss]

5 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

 

Love it that you've chosen a meme produced by Anonymous, a spin off of Antifa and an extreme left wing Anarchist group to illustrate your point.

 

There's hope for you yet. 555

 

 

[tebee]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

I should have made it clearer. In the event of Brexit (deal or no deal), any sane person / government / EU official would choose the latter

They will make the choice for a hard border, firstly because it would be illegal under WTO rules not to have one, but more importantly because of these pesky things called consequences.

 

Let me give you a couple of exaggerated examples to illustrate those consequences

 

Firstly, imagine the country with the border was thailand not the UK. All the electrical equipment made and sold in Thailand could be shipped across the border to Eire and from there to any other EU country. This would quickly erode confidence in any electrical equipment sold in any country in the single market  and no other country would accept exports from there without checking it out first. 

 

Secondly Imagine   Eire decided to drop the excise duty on Irish whiskey to 50p a bottle . NI would be flooded with cheap Whiskey that had crossed the border and then so would the rest of the UK. Scotch Whisky sales would plummet.

 

So neither side can tolerate an open border when there is no agreement to common tariffs and standards and some supranational body to enforce there rules.         

[billd766]

17 minutes ago, petemoss said:

It cuts both ways. Why should the EU kowtow to the UK's demands? Trade deals beneficial to the UK with 50% of our export markets? Forget it.

AFAIR the UK has made very few demands and the EU said no to them all.

 

For 3 years the UK has supposedly been try to negotiate with the EU through TM and her Remainer cabinet. Where we are now is the net result of letting Remainers run the negotiations. The Eu has effectively said we want you to go but we will make it hard to do so as warning to other EU states.

 

The UK wants to go and if you want money from us as well please send us an audited up to date bill stating all monies due, all assets partly or wholly owned by the UK and please have it ready and completely up to date (preferably done by Swiss accountants) by October 31st.

 

We will then take the bill and scrutinise it line by line. There will be a tick if we agree and a cross by the line if we don't. We will be happy to pay what we agree on and for the things we don't agree will come back to you for a rethink.

 

You may have to pay the UK part costs for immovable things like buildings.

 

If we still cannot agree then we will seek arbitration from a neutral source, ie not the UK or the EU courts.

[Loiner]

I have called for nothing, I leave that to my elected MP.
 
It may have been "done to death" on a Thai expats forum, but the UK parliament is far from finished with it. It's gathering momentum in the house as the only democratic way to break the deadlock and leave MPs relatively unscarred, which is all MPs on both sides of the house have really been concerned about throughout this debacle.

You may have missed it on TVF and it looks like you have missed it in Parliament too. Jezza almost sort of declaring support for kind of a second referendum does not make for momentum.
The MPs who matter will not permit a second referendum, and have now accepted that we will Leave, almost certainly No Deal. None of them have the will or support for anything less. All their jobs depend on it.

[Loiner]

Love it that you've chosen a meme produced by Anonymous, a spin off of Antifa and an extreme left wing Anarchist group to illustrate your point.
 
There's hope for you yet. 555

And there’s you Remainers accusing all Leavers of being extreme right wing nutters. Shame on you all.

[billd766]

45 minutes ago, petemoss said:

I thought that I had made it clear, no deal guarantees a hard border and a possible return of the troubles. No sane person would choose that.

Have you been elected to power recently?

 

The deal, whatever it will be, will be dealt with by the EU and the UK.

 

THEY will decide what will happen and neither you, me, anyone on TVF or voters in the UK will have an input to change anything.

 

You can post away to your hearts content and nobody in the EU or UK corridors will take a blind bit of notice.

 

What you are doing, is simply stating your beliefs and point of view, in the same way that I and all the other posters are doing.

 

We could all post 24/7 or not post at all as it will make no difference at all until the next election when ALL the parties will be grovelling for our vote.

[petemoss]

6 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Have you been elected to power recently?

 

The deal, whatever it will be, will be dealt with by the EU and the UK.

 

THEY will decide what will happen and neither you, me, anyone on TVF or voters in the UK will have an input to change anything.

Not the case. If there's no customs union, there will be a hard border. Not the EU's choice, not the UK's choice, not the ROI's choice, not your choice, not my choice. WTO rules.

 

Please read Teebee's excellent post that explains it very clearly.

 

I would add to Teebee's post that there was a hard border, army watchtowers and patrols, checkpoints etc. until the ROI joined the EU which, due to our customs union, removed the need for a hard border and played a major part in facilitating the GFA. No sane person wants a return to the "bad old days".

[Loiner]

Ah huh...if you read them you’d see they are actually outlining Eire’s attempts to find solutions to issues caused by brexit that affect Eire and the Good Friday Agreement. 
 
In effect preparing for the departure of the uk. 

Did we manage to find any contemporaneous reports yet? Or have we managed to conveniently forget those? I guess there aren’t any.
Ireland, the EU, Cameron et al, never even considered a Leave result, so the border would have been a moot point.
When they woke up on 24th June 2016 maybe some of them began to think about solutions, other than overturning the referendum result.

[Loiner]

Not the case. If there's no customs union, there will be a hard border. Not the EU's choice, not the UK's choice, not the ROI's choice, not your choice, not my choice. WTO rules.

No sane person wants a return to the "bad old days".

Entirely up to the EU and Ireland what they do with the border after we Leave.
Hope you are not including the EU or some of the Irish politicians in the sane category, but the could bring those days about.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, Loiner said:

 

Entirely up to the EU and Ireland what they do with the border after we Leave.
Hope you are not including the EU or some of the Irish politicians in the sane category, but the could bring those days about.

 

I'd run that by the DUP if I were you.

 

£1.3Billion of tax payer's money can only by so much 'Supply and Confidence'.

[Loiner]

I'd run that by the DUP if I were you.
 
£1.3Billion of tax payer's money can only by so much 'Supply and Confidence'.

How much should they charge - more than this?

[Joinaman]

21 hours ago, petemoss said:

Quite the opposite. If the British government decide to leave with no deal then, automatically, the customs union disappears overnight. No customs union = hard border, no way round that. Hard border = breach of the GFA.

Ergo, the whole mess of a hard border would be entirely the fault of the British government. The EU will see it that way, the ROI will see it that way and, more importantly, the IRA will see it that way.

why hard border ? Can we not have electronic customs as per other countries, with some simple checks if needed by the Eu if required

What good would a hard border do anyway, the border is like a sieve, with smuggling a way of life for years, and a hard border, unless a trump type wall, would never stop this

And who would start a civil war because some border control was installed, ? The IRA ?  The Southern Irish who go shopping in the north ?And where does it say anything in the agreement about hard or soft borders ? I thought i read not long ago that the EU is already sorting out an electronic border to avoid a so called hard border, that they know cannot work anyway

We can then go back to increasing our border checks on all people, and goods from both North and South to prevent smuggling and immigrants, same as we had in the 80s and 90s

[Joinaman]

19 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I disagree. 

 

Hard border = a return to the troubles, lives ruined, terrorist bombings, mass murders - oh, and protection of the precious customs union

 

No hard border = continued peace, a need to work on ways to tighten border controls over the coming years using technology etc., and a few smugglers getting away with stuff in the interim.  

 

Any sane person / government / EU official would choose the latter 

Why

Please explain why this would happen ?

How would this effect the lives of the majority of the Irish, both North and South ?

or are you talking about the paramilitaries who would use any excuse to revert back to bombings and murders ?

[Joinaman]

6 hours ago, petemoss said:

Couldn't agree more. Which is why we need the People's Confirmatory Vote to make it crystal clear exactly what we voted for.

I thought the vote was TO LEAVE ????

or am i wrong

What did you thing LEAVE meant ?

Do you have a dictionary to check out the meaning of this word ?

We were not asked what we wanted, other than to leave, the majority chose this. 

 

 

[tebee]

6 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

why hard border ? Can we not have electronic customs as per other countries, with some simple checks if needed by the Eu if required

What good would a hard border do anyway, the border is like a sieve, with smuggling a way of life for years, and a hard border, unless a trump type wall, would never stop this

And who would start a civil war because some border control was installed, ? The IRA ?  The Southern Irish who go shopping in the north ?And where does it say anything in the agreement about hard or soft borders ? I thought i read not long ago that the EU is already sorting out an electronic border to avoid a so called hard border, that they know cannot work anyway

We can then go back to increasing our border checks on all people, and goods from both North and South to prevent smuggling and immigrants, same as we had in the 80s and 90s

NO counties in the world have only electronic customs.

 

Do you not remember what the border posts were like before the GFA? Mini-forts that still got blown up regularly. The IRA would see any attempt to re-impose them and re-partition Ireland as an affront 

 

Not only will putting them back break the GFA it will cost a fortune 

[petemoss]

3 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

I thought the vote was TO LEAVE ????

or am i wrong

What did you thing LEAVE meant ?

Do you have a dictionary to check out the meaning of this word ?

We were not asked what we wanted, other than to leave, the majority chose this. 

 

 

We were told that leaving would be easy and that we would get an agreement with the EU that would be beneficial to the UK in every way. Does this sound much like the deal that May negotiated? Does this sound anything like a no deal Brexit?

[Joinaman]

1 hour ago, petemoss said:

I thought that I had made it clear, no deal guarantees a hard border and a possible return of the troubles. No sane person would choose that.

No it does not

EU already is sorting out electronic borders

How does Switzerland's borders work ? Hard Borders or electronic customs ?

[Joinaman]

1 hour ago, petemoss said:

Not possible. There is no roadmap for what you suggest. No deal and a hard border has to be imposed.

If the UK does not impose hard border, who will ?

The EU ?

 

[Joinaman]

1 hour ago, petemoss said:

It cuts both ways. Why should the EU kowtow to the UK's demands? Trade deals beneficial to the UK with 50% of our export markets? Forget it.

Maybe because even the Germans are shitting bricks about losing trade with us

Watch the German EMP talking about how much It will hurt the EU much more than it will hurt the UK. and how worried the German industries are if the EU make any problems in trading with us

[Joinaman]

1 hour ago, petemoss said:

Love it that you've chosen a meme produced by Anonymous, a spin off of Antifa and an extreme left wing Anarchist group to illustrate your point.

 

There's hope for you yet. 555

 

 

So very similar to the crap spouted by remainers then ?

[Loiner]

NO counties in the world have only electronic customs.
 
Do you not remember what the border posts were like before the GFA? Mini-forts that still got blown up regularly. The IRA would see any attempt to re-impose them and re-partition Ireland as an affront 
 
Not only will putting them back break the GFA it will cost a fortune 

So Northern Ireland will be the first.

Good enough reason not to reinstate them.

GFA not broken and everybody’s saving money.

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

Did we manage to find any contemporaneous reports yet? Or have we managed to conveniently forget those? I guess there aren’t any.
Ireland, the EU, Cameron et al, never even considered a Leave result, so the border would have been a moot point.
When they woke up on 24th June 2016 maybe some of them began to think about solutions, other than overturning the referendum result.

All the links, which you said you did not read yesterday, lay out exactly why the british govt finds themselves struggling with the issues regarding Eire's concerns over the effect brexit will have on the Good Friday Agreement.

 

One even points out the Irish govt began discussing the consequences prior to the brexit referendum in case there was a leave vote, such was their concern.

 

The tories did not respond adequately to Eire's concerns, so Eire went to the other EU govts and ensured that they were highlighted in the brexit talks.

 

The EU is supporting Eire's position on the border and brexit's effect upon the Good Friday Agreement.

[evadgib]

50 minutes ago, tebee said:

NO counties in the world have only electronic customs.

 

Do you not remember what the border posts were like before the GFA? Mini-forts that still got blown up regularly. The IRA would see any attempt to re-impose them and re-partition Ireland as an affront 

 

Not only will putting them back break the GFA it will cost a fortune 

The rules changed in 2001 whether the IRA like it or not. If they're daft enough to believe they can pick up where they left off they'll have a Brimstone down their chimney quicker than Father Christmas, delivered with no boots on the ground or fear of any backlash in Trumpton.

Racketeering and 'ordinary decent crime' has never really stopped but there will be no return to anything experienced during the troubles.

[Chomper Higgot]

17 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

All the links, which you said you did not read yesterday, lay out exactly why the british govt finds themselves struggling with the issues regarding Eire's concerns over the effect brexit will have on the Good Friday Agreement.

 

The tories did not respond adequately to Eire's concerns, so Eire went to the other EU govts and ensured that they were highlighted in the brexit talks.

 

The EU is supporting Eire's position on the border and brexit's effect upon the Good Friday Agreement.

And an example of the collective bargaining power of the EU. 

[tebee]

42 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

No it does not

EU already is sorting out electronic borders

How does Switzerland's borders work ? Hard Borders or electronic customs ?

physical infrastructure

 https://goo.gl/maps/s7GXZHitf5YawzLP7

 

 

 

 

[Loiner]

All the links, which you said you did not read yesterday, lay out exactly why the british govt finds themselves struggling with the issues regarding Eire's concerns over the effect brexit will have on the Good Friday Agreement.
 
The tories did not respond adequately to Eire's concerns, so Eire went to the other EU govts and ensured that they were highlighted in the brexit talks.
 
The EU is supporting Eire's position on the border and brexit's effect upon the Good Friday Agreement.

Those were later reports from last year. Where are the supposed ones from 2016 or earlier?
There was nothing, but Ireland and the EU are still trying to use the GFA to lever the UK into not really leaving.
It’s still not working.

[Bluespunk]

Just now, Loiner said:

Those were later reports from last year. Where are the supposed ones from 2016 or earlier?
There was nothing, but Ireland and the EU are still trying to use the GFA to lever the UK into not really leaving.
It’s still not working.

The links I posted lay out exactly how the Irish govt began he process of protecting their interests both before and immediately after the brexit vote.

 

If you read them you would know that...

[Loiner]

The links I posted lay out exactly how the Irish govt began he process of protecting their interests both before and immediately after the brexit vote.
 
If you read them you would know that...

Dates please.

[Chomper Higgot]

9 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Dates please.

While you are indulging yourself with pedantry, you are ignoring the fact that the Irish Government has voiced its concerns, has the backing of the EU and has a sovereign veto vote. 

 

You can argue all day long on the precise date that the Irish Government raised its concerns  and acted in its own best interests to secure EU backing, all your arguments don't get over the fact that the UK needs to address the concerns of the Irish Government to the satisfaction of the Irish Government and EU.